Devs: Any hope for the flight pool?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-23 09:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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At least we still have pulling.
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That's only because 99.99% of all players don't know how to do it right.
From level 2 to level 50, the words that still cause me to grit my teeth are "I'll pull" which means "I'll shoot at something and then wait for it to shoot back or possibly bring all of his friends over here" and everyone else in the team interprets this as "good, we'll stand right next to you and watch."
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At least we still have pulling.
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That's only because 99.99% of all players don't know how to do it right.
From level 2 to level 50, the words that still cause me to grit my teeth are "I'll pull" which means "I'll shoot at something and then wait for it to shoot back or possibly bring all of his friends over here" and everyone else in the team interprets this as "good, we'll stand right next to you and watch."
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omg that is by far the most true thing I've ever heard.
and oh yeh crank up the speed on flight for God's sakes, if you are going to nerf something, buff it in a different area to balance it!
What if you could "throttle" your flight speed? Like, turnign on fly and tapping forward gives you a slow hover, whereas pressing and holding forward accelerates you. The faster you go, the more end you burn. While your standing still or just piddling along, you use little end. That'd give an advantage over longer distances, etc.
Another thign I'd like to see implemented is somethign I loved in Guild Wars; if you stood around doing nothing, you started to regen health and end. As soon as you attacked, use an ability, or got attacked, the regeneration went away. Thus, if you stand still for a few seconds after a battle, you're back to full.
I would defintiely welcome some -jump, -tp, -SS powers as well.
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What if you could "throttle" your flight speed? Like, turnign on fly and tapping forward gives you a slow hover, whereas pressing and holding forward accelerates you. The faster you go, the more end you burn. While your standing still or just piddling along, you use little end. That'd give an advantage over longer distances, etc.
Another thign I'd like to see implemented is somethign I loved in Guild Wars; if you stood around doing nothing, you started to regen health and end. As soon as you attacked, use an ability, or got attacked, the regeneration went away. Thus, if you stand still for a few seconds after a battle, you're back to full.
I would defintiely welcome some -jump, -tp, -SS powers as well.
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There are actually quite a few -jump and -speed powers in the game. Anything that's -fly will ground your jumping too. At least everything I've ever seen. I've seen lots of slows too. From quicksand in the Hollows on. There isn't anything that's -tp as far as I know, but that's one of the few advantages of the power. You rip a hole in spacetime and travel from point A to point B. What can the average villain do to stop you?
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Even if Hover went up FASTER then it went forward...kind of how CJ makes you jump UP but not Forward, and how Hurdle dose UP OR FORWARD and when you use them together you get UP UP or UP FORWARD...if that makes sense...or make Hurdle so it Boosts Jump AND flight Speed...so if you wanted to Speed up all your flight and hover Base speed this would do it...
Id also like to see a tweak that when your using fly and you Suppression Activates that you fly at YOUR hover speed, not the BASE hover speed...since any one with SS gets to go at there Sprint + swift speed... I think this would only be "balanced"
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Anything that's -fly will ground your jumping too. At least everything I've ever seen.
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Then you've never seen Snowstorm.
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In any case, the current 3 slotted hover isn't fast enough to keep up with people on the ground who have swift + sprint. So instead of spending the entire mission in hover, I have to run, then turn it on in battle, then turn it off and run, etc. Not only a pain, but certainly not in the spirit of my toon.
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Why not switch from hover to FLY instead of run?
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Was there any herding issue that caused Travel Suppression to be patched in? For the life of me, I can't see why Travel Suppression was even needed at all.
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I think the most important thing we should be getting across to the Devs is this:
This is a super hero game and aerial combat is a big part of the genre and should be part of the game. Its not. That alone should be worth your investigation.
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Something like this perhaps ?
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Nice picture but not what I was thinking of, no.
The only really decent aerial combat I've ever had in this game was against some CoT in Fault Line when my party got a bit separated. That was cool.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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At least reduce Flight's END cost or relate it's END cost to whether you are attacking. High END if you are attacking, Low END if just traveling. That way you can take and use Flight without being almost forced to take Stamina to stay in the air for long.
I would still like to see a "Swoop" type attack that turns altitute into damage in a one time landing from flight attack. This is an attack you see so often in comics I love to see a character fly down knocking back enemies in the area while landing. Perhaps the Avians?
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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In any case, the current 3 slotted hover isn't fast enough to keep up with people on the ground who have swift + sprint. So instead of spending the entire mission in hover, I have to run, then turn it on in battle, then turn it off and run, etc. Not only a pain, but certainly not in the spirit of my toon.
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Why not switch from hover to FLY instead of run?
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Because both of the toons that used to have 6 slotted hover use teleport as a travel power. Neither of them have (nor do I wish to give them) fly.
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What if you could "throttle" your flight speed?
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Putting a "speed slider" in for flight was the very first idea I ever suggested on the forums; minutes later it became the very first suggestion that I was told was old news. I still think its a good idea.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Was there any herding issue that caused Travel Suppression to be patched in? For the life of me, I can't see why Travel Suppression was even needed at all.
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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting. basicly people would use SJ and SS, since they inherently made you travel faster, would basicly cue attacks, mostly melee, from outside of range of a enemy, then run or jump into range and back out. As you can probably attest to for that split second your in range your attack starts to fire. Just like a blaster shooting at someone running around a corner and hitting them, said melee attack would still go off and hit a target even though you were 40 yrds away from them again.
It worked in PVE against AI, and back then the only concern was the flight pool. So to prevent hover blasting the devs programed flight with a big, like 50 percent -accuracy. Making fliers that wanted to stay airborne have to bind flight and hover to hot keys and switch to hover quickly to attack and then back to flight to move.
I think the real issue became evident in PVP. The devs say no, but for a year it wasnt an issue until the arenas opened. So go figure. But when fighting people in the arena, and a player having to react quickly get a target etc, a enemy running in and outta his view so quickly became much more a issue, so they first added a -acc to all travels like flight had. Everyone freaked out. Fliers had been doing the toggling backand forth forever, but jumpers and SSers i guess couldnt handle it. So they did the "since you all hate it so much" kinda thing, and came up with supression that is like 1000 times worse to me. Hell i still outta force of habit find myself toggling to hover to attack though it really does nothing. Old habits die hard i guess.
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Hell i still outta force of habit find myself toggling to hover to attack though it really does nothing.
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Well, hover does take considerably less end.
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but for a year it wasnt an issue until the arenas opened.
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For a year it wasn't complained about, then the arenas opened. It was always an issue, it just wasn't a big enough of one to devote resources to. Arenas came around and it became a big enough issue to pay attention to. When the solution for PvP was implemented, there was no reason not to implement it for PvE as well, since the same situation existed in both places, and it didn't require any extra resources.
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So they did the "since you all hate it so much" kinda thing, and came up with supression that is like 1000 times worse to me.
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I agree. An insurmountable accuracy penalty would be MUCH better than restricted movement in a power who's sole purpose is movement.
I don't understand something, and maybe I'm just naive, but why not make initiating an attack stop you dead in your tracks where you first initiated the attack? Make the character lose all momentum, speed, etc. I run at an enemy with an attack queued - as soon as I'm in range, blam!, I'm stopped right there...
Make the movement powers have acceleration and decceleration values so it's not just instant-away...
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I don't understand something, and maybe I'm just naive, but why not make initiating an attack stop you dead in your tracks where you first initiated the attack? Make the character lose all momentum, speed, etc. I run at an enemy with an attack queued - as soon as I'm in range, blam!, I'm stopped right there...
Make the movement powers have acceleration and decceleration values so it's not just instant-away...
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I believe it has to do with latency. The attack triggers as soon as you're in range, and your animation goes off when the attack triggers. However, by then you're a good distance from the target.
Suppression hasn't really stopped it, just slowed it down.
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In any case, the current 3 slotted hover isn't fast enough to keep up with people on the ground who have swift + sprint. So instead of spending the entire mission in hover, I have to run, then turn it on in battle, then turn it off and run, etc. Not only a pain, but certainly not in the spirit of my toon.
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Why not switch from hover to FLY instead of run?
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Because, unlike the old -Acc thing Fly had, you cannot toggle around suppression. Before, if you were flying and fired off attacks, you missed like mad. The solution was to switch between Fly and Hover. A bit of a pain, but no real sweat. Now, whether you're flying, hovering, or standing on the ground, and fire off an attack suppression kicks in salting your tail. There's no way around it. Well there is. Not using the damned power anymore.
Shame too. I loved Fly. After I picked it up the first time I spent hours just barnstorming around the city. Now it's a piece of [censored]. Boy, I sure am glad the devs haven't (repeatedly) [censored]ed with PvE when they decided to shove PvP into this game.
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Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this was a pretty darn good idea.
Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.
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I think this is the best idea for fixing hover.
If that doesn't seem reasonable, how 'bout this: change SWIFT so it boosts both run and fly speed, then let us slot it for +fly speed, too. That way by slotting both swift and hover, we can get a decent flight speed.
(Wouldn't be bad to give hurdle +TP dist and have it take range enhancers under the same scheme).
I agree with what pill said.
All in all, I think that hover should offer -good- combat mobility. that means that it should be at least as good as just running when not slotted ( at least!) and should be able to exceed sprint with a few slots.
having to turn off hover just to move from mob to mob without excruciating slow crawling would make the power less unpleasant.
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Hell i still outta force of habit find myself toggling to hover to attack though it really does nothing.
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Well, hover does take considerably less end.
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but for a year it wasnt an issue until the arenas opened.
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For a year it wasn't complained about, then the arenas opened. It was always an issue, it just wasn't a big enough of one to devote resources to. Arenas came around and it became a big enough issue to pay attention to. When the solution for PvP was implemented, there was no reason not to implement it for PvE as well, since the same situation existed in both places, and it didn't require any extra resources.
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So they did the "since you all hate it so much" kinda thing, and came up with supression that is like 1000 times worse to me.
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I agree. An insurmountable accuracy penalty would be MUCH better than restricted movement in a power who's sole purpose is movement.
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Sure there was a reason, how about they didnt care if we did it in PVE but when PVP was introduced people complaining got te travel powers nerfed. The devs promised nothing would ever be changed for PVP alone, but comeone how many times do we have to hear working as intended before we say BS!
Though the power worked better in PVP, the fact is once you established agro on a group in PVE the computer was able to launch attacks at you because it could target you faster then a human and do the same thing, que attacks the instant you got in range. Humans fighting Humans the powers moved to quickly for the split second someone was on your screen to do that, hence why it became a larger, more important issue in PVP, and why a power was altered in PVE for sole reasons of PVP usefulness.
Devs knew that travel powers could be used in combat, their not stupid. And most are gamers, so seeing kiting, bunny hopping etc, in other games would not have been a surprise to them. It simply wasnt a big enough issue in pve to care about. But even so, notice they [censored] up fly from the get go with a acc modifier, so they were aware of the use of travels as combat powers. To then a year later say "was never intended" is BS. Its more like "we didnt think far enough ahead to pvp to realize this would be a tactic" and of course players pay the price.
But seriously getting back on thread topic, Fly is now way below the other travels, sure i like it due to its Heroish feeling, but its utility is way off. It needs to be faster, take less resources, and over all just be a cool power to have. What they really need to do is cap out all the travel powers. Teleport should kick [censored] on all for speed due to the type of power it is, and that it really has no combat bonus accept running away. Then the other three should all be tested. Through cities and open areas, strait line and obsticles. Then take the average times of all the start to finishes, and make all the speed equal. Or close to it, i know flight will never hit 88 mph like SS can, but a 28MPH difference for being able to strait line it is obscene. Everyone say cause it safer? well SS has stealth in it also, i have never been shot at when using SS and i kept moving past a mob, ever. Its perfectly safe to us, so is jumping, so lets get by that, and get some balance to them. FLight should in all liklihood hit around 70MPH to be considered as usefull speed wise as the other two powers. Jumping might also need slighter boost.
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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting.
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Nope. From PMs:
Me:
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1.) Am I correct that the purpose of travel power suppression is to inhibit the practice of jousting?
3.) If so, then why is it still possible to joust with Speed Boost and other similiar powers?
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Statesman:
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1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.
3. Because jousting wasn't the reason for the change.
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Here's a wacky idea . . .
What if the powers that be (that would be the devs) added another timer to flight, let's say 8 seconds, and when that timer expires, you can go "super-sonic" (i.e., above the cap).
Let's say you take off from the train station in IP to head for Lusca, who's usually inking the waters by the Brickstown gate. That's a long flight, about a mile or so. At 60 mph, that would take a full minute, right? Let's say you take off, and for a few seconds (5-10sec), you fly at "normal" (i.e., current) flight speed. This keeps people from using it as an escape tool (much like it is now). After a period of time, a speed boost option kicks in and flight speed is doubled (for the sake of argument). Now that 60 second flight to Lusca only takes about 35 seconds. A two-minute jaunt across Crey's Folly only takes 65 seconds, and so on.
Here are some ideas to balance/unexploit the idea:
a. increase the endurance drain while at high-speed
b. use the SPRINT toggle (instead of/in addition to a timer to make high-speed flight (and its endurance penalty) optional
c. require SUPER SPEED as a power, and use it as the toggle described in (b) above.
d. only allow the speed boost kick in above a certain altitude
The idea is to give fliers a travel power that will get them from mission to mission in a more reasonable length of time.
I'm so sick of arriving at missions that are halfway completed by the time I get there. Okay, that's a bit of an hyperbole, but you get the idea.
Flying is the coolest travel power. You get to see the city from all angles. You get to really check out the giant statues. You don't get stuck in Grendel Gulch. I am not out to cheat the system. I rarely engage in PvP, so it's not about getting an edge in Siren's Call or the arena. I'm hoping I've addressed those possibilities in my proposal.
Does this suggestion make sense to anyone else? Is it worthy of a Dev response?? BTW, thanks for posting in here, Castle!
Well they sure could eliminate the issue of hover beign such a crappy power in PvP! 
That's hardly limited to PvP...
This may be one of my favorite topics on the forums. Some history from my perspective:
> See this thread from 1 year ago <
geko's comment was amusing, considering the large number of people who took SS because it was so fast and Hasten was the prereq. geko's comment is as follows, for those who do not feel like clicking the link:
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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After the Arena came out, one of my observations > From this post < which was based on geko's comment:
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Do you believe in Superspeed's strengths now? Can Fly please be made faster in PvE at least? Everybody has SS of course, because everyone has Hasten (slight exaggeration, but only slight). Fortunately not everyone is good at using it to its fullest devestating effects.
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Then came suppression (which actually caused me to stop playing for 2 months), where the developers reasoned that fly was unfairly disadvantaged compared to the other travel powers. My comments on that are > located here. <
The most relevant quote from that post is:
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I also must wonder what changed between now and 3 months ago. Then Fly was beloved and you felt the other powers needed advantages in order to make people take them ; Now you think there is an inherent unfairness that makes Fly weaker, and for some baffling reason you think it has to do with Fly's Acc penalty instead of how butt slow it is?
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I used to have my hover 4 slotted on my fire/fire blaster and was planning to six slot it. The loss in speed for hover makes me sad.
Off-topic, I also found this (now) terrifying post I made in the suppresion thread when I was discussing ways one could minimize risk that IMO were better than jousting:
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Is pulling bad and on the chopping block? Are tanks defenses bad and on the chopping block? Is stealth bad and on the chopping block? These are just a few other ways you can defeat mobs with extremely low risk.
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At least we still have pulling.
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