Aggro cap. Herding is forever dead.
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-10-27 15:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Ehh works for me, actually makes pulling easier if there was a group of 25 guys some how; you'll pull 17 finish that off now your left with 8. Making trick pulling a skill too see if you can aggro the right mobs 
. I stopped mass herding awhile ago was fun but got tired of it.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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So wait.. does this fall under "no more major power changes"?
Does this this, like ED, slip though some bizzare loop-hole.
I have 2 fire tankers! I LOVED HERDING!! It was fun! I had friend because I told them about herding they all loved it. But after this patch they all left. YOU JACK lost about 20 people from triumph just in my SG. Only reason I am sticking around is I got to play a stalker in CoV.
How did Herding effect others? Your vision is jack(ed)!!
Can you tell us about the other "stealth nerf" please. I thought MxO Devs were bad, but you guys crossed the line!
Dark and Light is coming soon you better be ready jack!
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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Good idea, number way too small.
Between in-mission ambushes and groups that are STILL close together, fighting two groups at once is common and fighting three groups at once is hardly rare. I know you say it shouldn't happen, but it does, and I don't see anything in the patch notes for I6 about "spawn points on mission maps changed to avoid aggroing more than one group at once".
Even if you avoid that, there are situations like the mission to defeat Infernal and those zero-xp demons that come pouring out of the portal.
It needs to be doubled.
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on a team of 8 with one tanker who could normally hold the aggro of 3 mobs who happen to be within aggro range is no longer possible , it will take 2 or more well cooordinated tankers to defend a team.
I have to sound off here as well. Please remove fear from Burn. It was a sad day that I removed it from my Fire Tank, I'd love to get it back. Less damage, more recharge, fine. But making the mobs run is the LAST thing my tank will do to my team, so I respec'd it out.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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It needs to be doubled.
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on a team of 8 with one tanker who could normally hold the aggro of 3 mobs who happen to be within aggro range is no longer possible , it will take 2 or more well cooordinated tankers to defend a team.
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Exactly our problem today. We were taking on nems in an 8 man team..My granite could handle the damage, but could not, even with everything slotted for taunt and recharge, keep aggro on even 1 full spawn. sometyhing was ALWAYS shooting at teh squishies. Even with 2 healers people kept dieing until we got a 2nd tank.
i love this game and i feel like im losing a part of it.
i just want to know what it is that u have against herding?
if you dont like it so much then why was it possible in the first place?
its been a part of the game for so long its strange its taken u untill now to realize u dont like it. this seems like something that would have been caught in beta ages ago and if u had a problem with it then u would have done something about it then before the game was even released. or at least well before i6.
have u ever herded?
was it fun or did u just think it was rediculous and unbalanced?
and if so, at what point during the games history did u decide it wasnt appropriate?
do u think that there is an element of skill to herding?
does it matter to u if it was fun for many of the players
in the game to do what seemed perfectly natural for a tanker to do up to this point?
it was pretty obvious to most that the previous nerfs were intended to limit herding and therefore limit power leveling, but in the past
u were at least upfront enough to even address the issue
in an actual statement.
This stealth nerf however is a little dirty and underhanded
with so far a brief explination with no actual details.
( i assume u read the msgboard since u posted and so therefore are aware of many peoples reactions to this)
the word "fix" implies that u feel something was broken with
the game in that it allowed a tank to have too much aggro,
but then why was it a part of the game for so long?
and if u inteded to do this why did u nerf tanks so much already?
do u really think that herding was an overlooked design flaw
that needed to be corrected?
when did u think that herding was a major flaw in your game?
was it something that u just didnt have the resources to change or was it something that u always felt was wrong but were stuck with the AI u initially launched your game with?
maybe instead of making the players abilities poorer to compensate for stupid AI that follow u blindly, u should improve the AI to react differently, rather then be so easily led.
or is that too much work?
im sure the AI would complain alot less. but of course people
will complain no matter what changes u make.
basically (from what i gather) u dont think a tank or anyone for that matter should be able to herd, because its not fair that the AT that is ment
to take dmg and hold aggro should be able to do it "too" well?
(and then making to much xp to fast right?)
so is herding considered an "exploit"?
is it herding you are against or is it powerleveling?
is it because u dont want herding tanks to make too much prestige points for thier sg's?
so i assume u wanted to weaken them step by step and not all at once,
or does it just take this long to implement these kinds of changes?
i have to wonder what the real motivation for this is and why u felt it necessary not only to make these changes but also not to tell anyone that u were or why.
i know this sounds bitter but understand that i was already adjusting to the nerfs i knew about, and then i find this out,
but not from the horses mouth so to speak, feels like ive
had the wool pulled over my eyes.
i read that u have planned for ED since march 2005, but
at what point did u begin to think that herding shouldnt be
a part of the game, or within a tankers(or anyone elses) ability?
and why didnt u tell us about this? i really dont think its because u are worried about a negative reaction :P
u must have made a decision Not to tell people about this
untill after someone discovered it. and even then not to explain your decision to your paying customers.
i know u are not obligated to
and that its your game to "fix"
but why the sneakyness?
why keep your customers in the dark about changes to a
product they have and are paying for?
it honestly seems to me that u dont want people to level too fast. hence spending more time (and money) playing your game.
are u really trying to balance the game or just make people weaker and slower so u can dig into their pockets a little deeper?
are u guys not making enough money?
do u think that if some one gets powerleveled to 50 that they
will just quit playing?
do you think that herding is losing you some potential revenue?
there must be a reason u want to elimante herding in such an indirect manner.
i was willing to wait for ED to come out before i joined in on the belly aching, and too be honest i dont mind ED that much since i feel people already had to rely too much on stamina and hasten as it was, just to compensate.
(the end red is ok, but what about recharge rates?)
so i wasnt even going to complain.
but this...
this just seems like u are trying to prevent people from playing the game in a particular fashion, in order to curb PL.
but ud never openly punish your client base right?
especailly not based on the actions of the few.
so it is all about balance right?
so, if u want to balance the game why not make everyone
have the same abilites and limitations?
or maybe just have one AT?
then there would be no worries about how people enjoy the
game and if its more or less fun or productive then another
player.
ok ok, so maybe im pissed because your taking away the way i like to play the game, and maybe u just really think that
a tank shouldnt be Able to hold that much agro because another AT cant, but then why not just say so in the same patch updates section the other changes are listed in?
something about this whole "balancing" seems like an excuse to me.
(i resisted this rotten feeling untill i found this out)
if u are really concerned about balance, why is PvP so unbalanced in that some ATs are so much more effective then others?
(or is that what the i7 nerfs will be for?)
why mitigate powers, and not just improve others?
i assume next there will be a sidekick cap?
or someother way to abolish PL completely?
but then , its doesnt seem u have done this yet so maybe u
really are done trying to balance the game, and maybe now u will be happy with your game and everyone will adjust or leave and this will all be a distant memory. and people will
be free to play how they want, PL if they want (altho much slower), and everyone lived happily ever after.
so then, are you happy?
do u think that the game is balanced enough now that u will
not have to penalize powersets any further?
no promises right?
why?
why?
why?
i know u will never answer me, i know that my opionion means little, so i may as well ask myself why i am writing this?
or
why do i play this game?
Actually think I am ok with this. But I do think that this is something you should have done INSTEAD of gutting our defense and now also Status protection (YES, status protection is weaker in I6!!).
oh and psifire, that link with the mud whimping stuff,
is so prophetic its scary
Eh. Herding wasn't the design of the game regardless -- the game was designed around a group tackling a single mob group, and if they get more added, a problem arises.
Still, I believe you should have been forthright with this, Jack.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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So since you've 'fixed' herding, I suppose you can remove the utter gutting inflicted on certain tanker sets?
But oh, they weren't really reduced for PvE were they? Disregard.
Yeah wonderful. I love it when players discover stealth ner...er unannounced changes and the Devs are all like "oh, you mean you didnt know? My bad". Just tell us what the heck is going on without us having to discover it ourselves by surprise please.
On a side note, how the hell are we supposed to do the Eden Trial now? Is it even possible to defeat five hundred or so Geodes in the alloted time when you can only take 17 at once?
The sad part, it just got a whole lot tougher for my tanker to do his job. The happy part, he will never die now because there is no way that a measly 17 mobs can kill me, unless they're all psi mobs. So sucks for anyone on my team who accidentally aggros something. "Yknow Id really like to do my job and pull that boss off of you, and Im perfectly capable of doing so, except that Ive already got 17 guys on me. Once I defeat one of them Ill be more than happy to oblige you, try not to die before that ok?".
While positive in principle, I see some very ugly scenarios with this change.
Imagine 3 spawns close to one another. Big team, big spawns. The tanker charges in. To him, this change is actually a benefit - he cannot aggro more than the group he is attacking. Everyone else follows, and there is the usual slugfest. All well so far.
But oops, someone aggroes the next spawn. The tanker rushes to the rescue, moving into the center of the new group - and promptly loses all aggro from the first group. The group where the short-range controller, blapper, and their defender escort are all at melee range and suddenly find themsleves facing mobs who completely forgot the tanker was even there.
I wonder what happens to the "extra" mobs. Do they lose all aggro and interest in the fight, or do they just drop the main antagonist from their aggro list, changing to the next target or priority. The later would be really nasty - every mob the tanker loses aggro on automatically switches to the blaster or controller...
If the aggro limit was for the TEAM, this could work - but be too powerful. (Basically, that would mean you can never aggro more than a single spawn, ever.) But as a limit per player, it is way too low.
How about making the number AT dependant, so a tanker gets a 100% bonus (34 mobs) while scrappers, masterminds and brutes get a 50% increase (26 mobs). (Perhaps the limit is per minion, in which case masterminds need no change).
I am sure many squishies would want a decrease - imagine if only 8 mobs could be aggroed on you at a time! 
The way I see my group coping with this is to herd more often but on a smaller scale. Take the above 3-spawn scenario. The tank enters the room in complete safety - no way 17 mobs can hurt him - and then brings back exactly 17 mobs, who are defeated very promptly in the corridor outside. No risk of ever exceeding the 17 mob limit. Rinse and repeat. A general charge - the heroic way to do it - becomes even less of an option.
In summary, I actually like a limit, but 17 is way too low for a tank.
But States... AI fix? The 18th con just stands there lookin stupid instead of challenging the hero... why not have the 18th and beyond con choose to target from range and not close to melee til one of the 17 drop instead? Wouldn't that be real AI?... it just doesn't make a heap of sense!
How about enermies with assault weapons or just range in general taking cover? stuff like that is at least respectable AI advancement IMHO. But hey, it's your game and u do what u want i guess.
Oh btw! Your statesman build rocks! I saw you in the strike and totally froze where i was to look. It was like seeing Michael Jackson for the first time in your neighborhood. Well back when he was a phenomenom anyway....lol.
So you'll be rolling back:
- the Taunt limit?
- the AoE limit?
- all the DEF and RES changes?
Since they were all to stop herding...but you don't care right? You have fun and that's what matters right?
This latest stealth-nerf just screams exploit. Mobs just stand there while I aggro more mobs. Herding made safe, nice. Even Inv. and Ice "tankers" can herd again. This change was made up so fast nobody thought it out and bothered to add it to the patch notes. I guess you "forgot". Again.
Can I get another free respec btw? I still took Taunt under the misguided impression it could come in handy. Guess you fixed that huh. I won't need it anymore; hell people don't need tanks anymore anyway for just 17 mobs. Just be done with it and make 'em all Brutes or Scrappers. It's how you're forcing us to play them.
But it's ok; just throw another free respec at some point. People love respeccing every time you come up with an "fix". Oh you forgot to give us a free respec for those last minute "fixes" to Phase Shift and Quantum Flight. We'll get those soon I assume?
I like how even you're starting to put fix between quotes by the way. I never thought I'd see the day the allmighty States would realise this isn't even remotely a fix.
*takes deep breath*
Rant over. As you were.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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As many have said before this was one of our suggestions so that you did not have to slaughter our defenses. But I guess the only ideas you like on tankers these days are the ones that involve nerfing. But since tankers are working just fine according to the vision you don't really care that we are just glorified scrankers now.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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I'm happy it's finally been done. Now, can we have our powers back? I mean if we can't herd, what's the reason my characters (specially my two tanks) feel weaker and weaker with every update? You want the game harder, that's nice. Apparently you only see the l33t ub0rgam0rs or whatever. Some of us only play a few missions a night, and almost always in solo (especially these days with all our friends moving to COV or allready in the COV beta). The sense of accomplishment per mission is getting smaller and smaller.
There is nothing more boring than a level treadmill. Oh wait. Yes there is, a mission on a level treadmill that is slow and boring because my fights are getting longer and I'm getting defeated more often.
Thanks for the reminder.
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You think that was the real Statesman? On all three servers?
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Way to miss the point there slick. Thanks for playing.
Starfox's questions are the ones I want most answered. How the heck does this actually work?
I mean, is it for a team or a mission or a certain radius or per character?
Does this mean that, for instance, you are fighting a full spawn of 17, let's say, and then get close enough to be within aggro range of another spawn (like the stupidly tightly packed spawns in Oranbega maps). Do they start aggroing as mobs in your current pack drop? Or do they aggro and force ones you're already fighting to drop aggro . . . and what happens if you continue to damage those that lost aggro? Does it keep flipflopping?
I mean, I don't like herding, but untill the maps are fixed, REALLY fixed, this won't work. Just last night, in I6, I did an Oranbega mission on Heroic with a team of 6 and there were hallways with 3-6 spawns intermingled. No way to pull, nothing to do but TRY and fight through them . . . which was messy. VERY messy. I frankly couldn't tell you how the 17 cap that was in place was working . . . my screen was filled with baddies.
Basically, what I'm saying is . . . we need to know how this REALLY works. The specifics. Because it's incredibly vital with the current poorly placed spawns.
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In summary, I actually like a limit, but 17 is way too low for a tank.
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With the lower resist numbers tankers have compliments of I5+ ED I don't think the tanker would want to take on 17 bad guys .
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I don't get the fuss. I used to play with a group that met on a regular basis: fire tanker, fire blaster, and me, illusion/emp controller. After a while me and the blaster became completely superfluous. As a matter of fact, try to be a controller was actually COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the fire tanker's herding.
I gave up xp powerleveling after grinding multiple 50s in DAoC. Games are meant to be played and experienced, not rushed through as fast as possible. Each combat can be a unique experience. Changes made so other players using their powers don't interfere with fire tankers is not a bad thing. Changes made so there is not just one tactic for every mission is not a bad thing. Bringing diversity to a game that already is in dire need of it, given that combat is all we do, is not a bad thing.
So rather than scream nerf all the time, embrace change for the new experiences it can bring.
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How about this. You go looking for a new car to buy. You find a car that you don't like. You don't like the body of it, the engine of it, the interior of it, etc. Instead of finding a car you DO like you demand that they completely change that car into the one you want.
Make sense? Only if you have more money than you know what to do with and want to be incredibly stuburn.
Same thing goes here. You had things you did not like about CoH(i.e. Herding). There are plenty of other games out there that don't have herding. Why don't you play those? For one, me and most of my SG mates love herding because it brings with it a sense of power(note: Superhero game). Now, when I wanted more teamwork based play, I went to EQ2. When I wanted more in depth quests and items, I went to WoW. When I wanted to beat the ever loving crap out of baddies in the most insanely fun way possible, I went to CoH.
All I ask is this: CoH is a superhero game. If you don't like that it is a superhero game, go to another MMO. Asking for the game to be balanced and teamwork oriented is like taking the Super Friends and telling them their powers must be balanced with each other!
I'm sorry Superman, but you are no longer allowed to have superstrength and fly. It just doesn't balance well with Aquaman's powers. Oh and Batman, you need to lose about 75% of your gadgets, it is simply too much in comparison to Hawkman.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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Then can I please have my taunt back, since you have finally fixed the AI.
Are you going to roll back all the other nerfs that you imposed upon us to "fix herding".
or now that you have actually fixed herding, can you now come out and admit that you gutted my tank, not to fix herding but to accommodate PVP.
????
If you guys can take on 20 mobs at a time without being in danger then THANK GOD YOU WEREN'T NERFED HARDER.
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If you guys can take on 20 mobs at a time without being in danger then THANK GOD YOU WEREN'T NERFED HARDER.
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Maybe you missed this lovely tidbit from statesman
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One of the posters discussed his Tanker – and how he leaped into the fray with 2 Bosses, 2 or 3 lts. And 2 or 3 minions…and promptly had to flee. A spawn such as that in a mission would be designed for 5 heroes.
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A tanker would not want 17 mobs on him
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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I'm sorry...but [censored]?
AI change to fix herding: don't have them all stack on top of each other...i.e. fix clipping. Not this half [censored] cop out that's that's...I'm very angry, let me compose myself...
Ok, let me try this again...
I posted a link to this thread on champion forums in order to help educate people about this. Honestly, with all the changes to powers and the ED thing that just hit, I was a bit annoyed, but I was going to be a good sport about it and try it out. But this...this...this is that one additional punch below the belt after you think its all done.
I'm sorry, but I honestly enjoyed herding. And no, I don't mean herding to PL ppl, I mean as in efficiently aggroing mobs to make a kill all mission go faster. Once I aggro'd and grouped the mobs all together, my job was to keep aggro while my team dealt with killing, buffing, and controlling the mob.
Honestly, there's nothing we can say to change your mind. And sure, this doesn't fall under tweaking the powers, so this major nerf to hero effectiveness is something else you're getting away with based on semantics.
I kept on saying that surely this change is the last one, the game should be balanced now and we shouldn't have to worry about anything else.
And, without fail, you keep managing to introduce a new change even worse (for my fun at least) than the one before. It's just blow after blow below the belt.
Both of my housemates canceled their subscriptions this week. I'm going to sleep on it, check out the new content in CoV (since I do like content and I'm stuck with my preorder), and move on since I DO NOT trust you at all. I've no clue what's next for you to [censored] with. Make it so that any hero can not possibly handle more than 3 minions, 1 minion and a lt, or 3/4 of a boss at a time?
Newsflash.
The game before lvl 20 is not fun for most people. The game above 20 that was so incredibly unbalanced in your distorted view of things is what people enjoyed. Or at least me and my friends. I can't speak for everyone since apparently you've got a few sycophants left that are beaming about this stealth nerf. And I'm sorry that that's going to offend people. I'm in a bad mood and was looking forward to a stress release in game tonight when I found out about this.