Aggro cap. Herding is forever dead.
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-10-27 15:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
sweetness!!! glad i used my free respec already based on how i herd. Thanks for the heads up states... YOU ROCK!!!!..
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
[/ QUOTE ]
I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies. I know this is your baby and all but when changes like this are made and it is never mentioned publicly to be on the way, you just anger your player base.
Now I know that there are a number of players that might have been asking for this and that's fine, but where do you draw the line on what is suggestable for changes and what is not? I would assume this change is a desire by either yourself or some of the players to eliminate herding or powerleveling. My problem with that is where does it all end Jack? Is there a point where the game is what it is? Why is it so hard to realize that there is a limit to what the players will tolerate?
All I am asking is that if you are going to make a decision that changes how players understand the game, then man up and say it outwright. This publishing a new Issue and then when players mention changes, you posting confirmations just ticks people off. And no this isnt a "I'm quitting" post either. I really love this game, and dont want to see it follow the same path of a certain SOE product.
I had a long winded reply that some may have read.
Basically, I don't see how limiting to 17 is a logical thing.
I would expect the devs to have taken the number that was more rounded and arbitrary. 25 for example.
A team of 8 x 3<this is from the 3:1 thing) would = 24.
So a normal team of 8 should be fighting 24 mobs at a time.
For me, I LOVED getting on my Stone/STone, herding half a level while solo, and useing Mudpots as my main damage power. This was slow, but I allowed me to slowly work through the mobs with my single target attack. There are a lot of us tanks out there who don't PL. We may herd, but, without a power that can kill them REALLY fast, it's damned slow. But some of us LIKE the challenge of makeing a toon that can survive it. It makes me feel like a SUPER hero, and not just a vigilante.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
[/ QUOTE ]I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies.
[/ QUOTE ]Com'on, don't BS. The only reason to herd more than 17 mobs is to farm XP. That's why people like taking on large herds of mobs. With the right builds and team, you can easily get beaucoup XP this way very quickly.
Thank god. I doubt my INV can survive anymore than that.
Now.
I won't deny lots of people did this, that would be ignorant but you can't dump everyone in that group. I just loved feeling like an immovable mass. 15 baddies, hell make it 50. The problem with this or any game is you can never satisfy 100% of the people. I would have been happy dealing little to no damage to get my resistances back, others not.
I have to agree with another poster, one of my first loves of CoH was that I could log in before work, run a quick mission and log out. I loved that I didn't have to "buff" before I could do anything like SWG was. Now if some of the changes I am seeing are to make defenders more wanted in groups, why didn't you just give the new powersets to them only? This is what I am trying to get across to you on the belief that you can "balance" the archetypes. Oh well, I guess this is another example of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey I love it, I pull 17 enemies on me, I go to the next few groups and pop the hell out of them and they do nothing in returns but stand there. Helluva AI fix ya got there States, what a joke...
you just gave people the way to earn xp without any mobs attacking back.
Hey maybe we can pull some swarms and beat the hell out of hami this way...lol
But what really cracks me up with this change is , it was a stealth nerf, never mentioned at all. And wasn't the limits to AOE's and PBaoe's to solve this problem to limit the amount of herding done to slow down the leveling of the Power Levelers?
Bad enough we have to deal with limits then this crap. Well some people like to gather an entire room up at once and blast them all for the FUN of it, now we can't do that.
Nevermind, I think Im wasting my breathe here anyway. I forgot its Statesman's game not ours!
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
I don't get the fuss. I used to play with a group that met on a regular basis: fire tanker, fire blaster, and me, illusion/emp controller. After a while me and the blaster became completely superfluous. As a matter of fact, try to be a controller was actually COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the fire tanker's herding.
I gave up xp powerleveling after grinding multiple 50s in DAoC. Games are meant to be played and experienced, not rushed through as fast as possible. Each combat can be a unique experience. Changes made so other players using their powers don't interfere with fire tankers is not a bad thing. Changes made so there is not just one tactic for every mission is not a bad thing. Bringing diversity to a game that already is in dire need of it, given that combat is all we do, is not a bad thing.
So rather than scream nerf all the time, embrace change for the new experiences it can bring.
[ QUOTE ]
As an additional thought, this opens up numerous tactical options.
I could aggro 17 say..underlings. Then kill everything else in the mission one or two or however many at a time. With no threat of death ever as nothing else in the mission would ever attack me more than once per shot of mine.
For instance, with 17 underlings aggroed on me, I could use fireball exclusivly on every group in the game and they would never get more than 1 attack back. Thus effectivly makeing me immortal.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me know when you successfully pull this off.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
[/ QUOTE ]I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies.
[/ QUOTE ]Com'on, don't BS. The only reason to herd more than 17 mobs is to farm XP. That's why people like taking on large herds of mobs. With the right builds and team, you can easily get beaucoup XP this way very quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry to disagree, but I made an Invulnerable / Super Strength Tanker to have fun and RP that guy as a buttkicker against all comers. And by the way, not everything is about XP, some people like this game because it is their fantasy to be a superhero.
Um.. i was pulling around 20+ mobs at striga.. with my Ice tank on test recently. They were +1's too. Council+BP no like ice. Oh.. i uh survived too. Just my attack chain and Energy absorbtion. Must be the playstyle.. :shrug:
Global: @Pandemonia
We're sorry. Due to the lack of adequate marketing, user patience has died 90+ days ago. Please try again sans "Soon."
Man All the little babies on here...How did My Herding affect your gaming experance? Was is the fact you did not know to herd and you became angry and bitter at those of us that could?
I have a total of about 15- 20 level 50's over MANY accounts and server of all shapes and sizes.
I for one have done every single mission, every single task force many many many many times.
I do like to try new builds and it MY damn choice to not do all the repetative missions again. Its My choice to herd, its my choice to powerlevel myself.
I have 3 computers here, all can run multi accounts at one time. Some times when I do run with other people three of those people on team are all ME and the others to not even know that. But who cares about that...I still play this game, I disklike WOW, EQ2, guild snore and most of the others. This game is where I have my fun.
We will find ways around Jack's vision and Jack's version of fun. Heck Ill even send him screen shots and FRAPS and show him, I don't care.
There is nothing to be done to get rid of power gamers, We can street kill and listen to "you are a kill stealer", we can find the missions that spawn the best, We can kill a group at time, we can kill 17 at a time. Hell I can use 2 tanks at one time put one one auto follow so what? Jack might them get rid of that. So be it.
To all fellow powergamers I Salute you!
To the Carebares and Jack I also Salute you but that is with one finger. 
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice stealth "fix" er nerf
"..." went the heartbeat of timmy tank.
Statesman. Why you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking herd-nerfer.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
[ QUOTE ]
thanks for off loading some of my abilites on others. Why get a tank, when a controller can lock down almost the same number with an AOE hold. 2 Controllers can make me useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the real beauty of it, in a bad situation...the controller, who really doesn't want aggro, will get it cleared! Talk about fire and forget.
While the tanker, who controls by getting aggro, well, can't get aggro.
And then consider the outdoor train missions like the fight between the CoT and their other dimension or Nem vs Nem Rex...many double sized groups coupled with multiple groups in close proximity. Those ar some of my favorite missions, except, well, no more of that.
Gotta love how they thought that one through.
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
[/ QUOTE ]
Great. Thanks for taking yet another suggestion from the tanker community that we were offering as a solution to stop mass herding INSTEAD of taking away our +DEF and +RES...not IN ADDITION to it!
This is the same crap you pulled with ED. "But as many pointed out on these boards, Enhancements were also a significant problem. In fact, many people suggested on the boards and in PMs that we look into some form of diminishing return." Right, INSTEAD of gutting our powers! And you wonder why you are so reviled?
Incidentally, since holding massive amounts of aggro and being nigh unkillable is such a freaking drag in your mind, last nights COV End of Beta event must have been absolute drudgery for you. You seemed to stand up WAY too long against the 50-100 villains beating on you. I'll bet you didn't have a LICK of fun while doing it. Did ya'? 
Awesome... two things though
1) Can you bump that cap slightly. I think 25 is a fair number, don't you.
2) Can we have back all our [censored] powers you NEUTERED along the way? You've made a hundred different changes to powers in order to slow, discourage or prevent this behaviour. Now that it has been accomplished, remove the wreckage from all your FAILED ATTEMPTS.
2a) Take the timer of off all the "herdable" missions. They aren't herdable anymore.
Honestly though, if all that was broken is restored, I'm 100% OK with this fix.
Thanks.
Hmmm, so I guess the Invincibility "Posse" Strategy works great for this, just as long as you get aggro of less-threatening mobs (such as -1 minions) instead of more-threatening mobs (such as +4 bosses) and you carry your Posse around. Sooooooo, you want 14 (up to 17 max) aggro'd on ya, then you use Single-Target attacks to kill the Lts. and Bosses. Wow, as if Invuln/Energy Mele needed to be even MORE superior than all of the other Tankers. Energy Mele gets Detoggling, a very lightly resisted damage type, oh yeah, and the best raw single-target damage in the game. Sheesh.
Honestly, if you wanted to limit herding, you might want to consider re-designing Tankers into something more like Scrappers ... oh wait, I guess you did that with the Brutes. IMHO, Brutes work quite well, and are fun to play while being more aggro-oriented than a Scrapper and with less sudden damage.
Of course, a Tanker that cannot Tank is .... useless. Unless of course it's Energy Mele, in which case it's just a PvP monster. Balance? We're nowhere near that yet. You gave everyone and their brother huge Smashing/Lethal Resistance, so all those powersets that are purely Lethal (Axe, Katana, Broadsword, AR, etc.) or Smashing (Super Strength, Mace, etc.) are at a HUGE disadvantage. So as long as you're introducing this concept of Detoggling attacks ... IMHO, those are the ONLY sets that should be able to detoggle, not lightly resisted but very high single-target damage sets like Energy Mele.
Herding ... that's a PvE-only thing. The real balancing needs to be done in PvP where nobody is foolish enough to gather around your Invincibility Aura.
So now that you've set a cap on how many we can keep aggro on, can we please have back the taunt we used to have pre I-5? We can't 'herd' anyhow, so I would at least like to be able to control the aggro I DO have. The current taunt really doesn't work well in large teams, particularly when you get a lot of AoE blasters and you are trying to keep the blasters alive, catching the aggro before they catch a dirt nap. Cuz the blasters are way better at grabbing aggro than a tank currently. I almost dread teaming with them now.
I also would consider giving us some of our resistance back in Inv, so that to survive we aren't FORCED to herd to survive. I'm not saying all, ( I agree Inv was kinda sick..) but some would be REALLY nice. Particularly in smashing/lethal, where we are supposed to shine, and toxic would be good. I dread anything with toxic damage. It kills me so fast I can't do anything. Also in light of ED, it would be nice to be able to put slots into things like Ed reduction instead of eeking out that last bit of damage resistance just so we can run with a full team and not be eternally in debt.
I never herded at all pre I5 because I didn't have to. Now I have (had?) to do it to be able to do my job in a team and survive.
I shouldn't require a dedicated empathy defender to be my babysitter to be a functional part of a team. They've got their hands full with the blasters.
Ironically, I find I do better solo now than with a team. I'm more inclined to do it, as I die less and the mobs and aggro are managable ( for most missions) or duo/trio at most. I simply am finding that larger groups = debt for all because I can't manage that kind of aggro anymore. If your intent was to make teaming more attractive, in my case at least, its had the opposite effect. I'm feeling more of a liablity than benefit to my teams as I can't do my job. Honestly? My Inv/Broadsword scrapper is a better tank in many cases. :P
Man this is awesome, now I can solo anything by just getting 17 weakling guys to aggro me. Archvillains will be in awe at the amount of attackers going after me and just stand there as I take him down.
You think that was the real Statesman? On all three servers?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As an additional thought, this opens up numerous tactical options.
I could aggro 17 say..underlings. Then kill everything else in the mission one or two or however many at a time. With no threat of death ever as nothing else in the mission would ever attack me more than once per shot of mine.
For instance, with 17 underlings aggroed on me, I could use fireball exclusivly on every group in the game and they would never get more than 1 attack back. Thus effectivly makeing me immortal.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me know when you successfully pull this off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just now
Crey's folly
I teleported into 2 groups of monies, turned on my aggro aura, then poped a group of ritiki with a fireball. All way way lower than me of course, still it proves a point. The ones I poped turned toward me, shot at me once, then my aggro aura ticked on teh monkies around me and the people I had just fireballed fell compleatly off my aggro list and turned away and ignored me.
[ QUOTE ]
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA
I remember, months ago, when the I5 changes were first announced, various posters saying (demanding?) that herding can be "fixed" with an AI change.
Well, here it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah but all those posts said fix the AI instead of gutting our resistances. oops guess they missed that part