Aggro cap. Herding is forever dead.
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-10-27 15:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Apologies if this has been said...I just don't understand why players where asking for a fix to herding! What do you care how other people play the game. There I had to get it off my chest. 
Thank you SO much for making several Powers and Enhancements even MORE useless than they were. In fact, thank you for making the entire CONCEPT of a Tanker useless. Never will anyone make a Tanker again, when they can make a Scrapper instead. Oh! Right, until you kill Scrappers too!
States, are you sure you're not a Kinetics Controller? 'Cause you certainly excell at sucking the fun out of YOUR game.
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How about taking the fear out of burn then. As is it is useless.
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Agreed totally.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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More likely, if you have 17 rikti monkeys attacking you, and you attack the chief soldier, one of the monkeys looses interest.
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This is what will happen, unless you try a taunt, which will do nothing, or a ranged attack combined with a damage aura, which will allow the boss one attack back then he will lose intrest.
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Apologies if this has been said...I just don't understand why players where asking for a fix to herding! What do you care how other people play the game. There I had to get it off my chest.
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You misunderstand. When the I5 changes were announced, the reason given for many of the global changes was that the devs wanted to prevent herding.
What many of us suggested at the time was a way for them to address herding (since they were going to do it anyway) without impacting non-herding play. Things like preventing NPC stacking, aggro range limits from their spawn points, etc. In other words, solutions that would address the problem without nerfs to the heroes themselves.
What's happening now is that we get the global nerfs and an AI change, when a properly thought-out AI change would do the trick by itself.
Apparently it's too hard to implement AI changes without first nerfing the player characters. <boggle>
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But States... AI fix? The 18th con just stands there lookin stupid instead of challenging the hero... why not have the 18th and beyond con choose to target from range and not close to melee til one of the 17 drop instead? Wouldn't that be real AI?... it just doesn't make a heap of sense!
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Now that is a good idea.
Not a reply to previous, just a reply in general. I'd pretty much given up on the boards. ED was a horrible blow. It cut damage by a ton. This change to aggro...it hurts. Hurts alot. We really CAN'T do our jobs as tankers anymore. Not even alone, with no-one to interfere with the aggro. I feel like I've kicked in the gut. By a horse. Repeatedly. All of the changes make me KNOW that this is now the City of Slightly Better than Average People. I really, truly and honestly think that States and co are trying to turn this into a SuperZero version of WoW. The graphics are tending in that direction. (except for the modern citie scapes) Some of the "new" power groups in CoV are carbon copies of WoW graphics and powers. The plant controller is basically a Druid. Same holds, same graphics in alot of ways. I wonder if the WoW people have noticed yet? I'm sorry, States, if I wanted to play WoW, I'd be playing WoW. Which I do...more often than I'm on this game anymore. At least the world there is HUGE, there are thousands of storylines to follow and very cool loot that's useable as more than a base enhancement. No, I'm not going to quit CoH and CoV, if for no other reason than that I want to maintain my ability to tell Jack and his Dev team what cretins they are.
I've said it before, it's worth repeating. When I first got this game, I felt a thrill every time I logged on. The music, the costumes, the people in the game. They made for wonderful and addicting fun. That sense of fun, that thrill from logging on, was maintained until I4. Which I struggled through and learned how to deal with. It decreased my happiness in the game, but I still wanted to play. The Hami nerf just about did me in. I came really close to quitting at that point, and only that fact that people who had truly become friends were still playing kept me logging in and occasionally doing more than PL'ing, which I did just because I know it annoys Jack.
Then came I5. That horrible issue that found me logging in less and less. To be honest, the only reason I'm still ON CoH is because it costs nothing extra. I'm moving along to CoV (until you nerf IT to death also). My main reason for playing that? The opportunity to kill Statesman in game. Yep, that's my goal, my motivation. I need some payback for the horrible and continued [censored] of a once great game. Hey, I don't think that term is overdone for what you have done, either. In fact, it fits perfectly. All of my characters have been made to bend over and take it up rear. Repeatedly.
So....my response to this change? It's a total mistake. If you had done this INSTEAD of all the other nerfs to get rid of herding (and yeah, we all know that's the REAL motivation for doing what you did to the tanks) then it would have been fine. Making it in addition to all the other changes, that's pure and simple overkill. Lemme tell ya. Tanks now do MINIMAL damage, can barely survive without healer support and can now only aggro 17 villians at a time? Do us all a favor. Delete the AT. Be honest that you never intended to give us the ability to be Supermen and women. Make sure that includes deleting Statesman, though. Because HE shouldn't be able to be Superman either.
My only additional comment to this thread is that, even before the three month hiatus I took between I5 and I6, I had more or less stopped grouping with tanks except when AVs came up. I became so sick of the pattern of "tank enters -> herd constructed -> herd-compatible attacks invoked -> recovery -> repeat cycle" that I just didn't want to play with tanks anymore. All squishy teams were simply much more fun and interesting than playing tanker's cleanup boy with half my powers.
I'm not saying that this will fix anything, or that this was the best way to go about this, but what I am saying is that there was a problem, at least for me. Teaming with tankers wasn't any fun.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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From a previous post by Statesman:
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Thirdly, I CAN say unequivocally that we have NO other major changes planned. A few posts have asked that specifically.
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So this doesn't qualify as "major" to you. I see it as a large change to mob AI, and well worth mentioning when ED was announced.
Woohoo! Goodbye Taunt! 
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Good lord.
Just bite the bullet and remove the Tanker archetype from the game, already.
I love how this was put in with NO announcement whatsoever.
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Yes, ED made it harder, I'm not able to pull off the stunts I was used to but I'm happy with my tank, so speak for yourself.
Why don't you remove your Tanker from your account and be done with it? 
I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.
Next?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Woohoo! Goodbye Taunt!
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yep, this seals the deal for me. not gonna include it in my I6 respec
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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You misunderstand. When the I5 changes were announced, the reason given for many of the global changes was that the devs wanted to prevent herding.
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Absolutely. For instance, at that time, Snow Storm could only affect ten targets. Even now, Shiver still only affects ten targets. The reason the devs gave for the target limit-- the only reason that made sense-- was to prevent herding.
Sixth verse, same as the first.
I'm taking bids on the next huge "game-breaking" tactic that will be blamed for "minor changes" in either "powers" or "AI" in the near future...herding has already been taken care of...twice.
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I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.
Next?
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You erased your pvl'd tank because you couldn't adjust and you use the mediocrity card?.....The irony of this post is.....amazing! lol
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States hates having powerlevelers in his game. It's that simple.[ QUOTE ]
do u think that if some one gets powerleveled to 50 that they
will just quit playing?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, he does. He think's they'll get bored because there is no end-game yet and they'll leave. That's why he hates having powerlevelers in his game.
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Looking at the consumer/producer relationship in this. Yes, by default it is his game. He developed the game. He presented it to a company that marketed the game to consumers - you and me. They make the profit off of us purchasing and playing it. However, imop, once I buy something, it is no longer THEIRS. It becomes MINE. The consumer. You don't go out and buy a sofa and say "this is Rooms-To-Go's sofa," you say. "this is my sofa." Period. If you call them and say that the cushion are ripped, you don't call them and say "your cushions are ripped, you should replace them," you say, "my cushions are ripped and I'd like to replace them." Point being, even though someone else made the game, you are paying for it. With everything good and bad, you as the cosumer have the ultimate power. Ask any company why they are in business, and they'll tell you because of the customer. They buy the products. They pay the salaries. If you don't like how something is being done, find another product. I'm not trying to start a flame. I for one am VERY upset about my Dark Defender now. I won't say that he's dead, but running a solo mission IS impossible for me now. I don't have 2 hours to run a mission by myself. Maybe that's why it took me nearly 9 months to hit 50 with him. But I feel like my hero has been betrayed. (Comic book reference: It's kinda like Professor X spending 30+ years teaching the X-Men about being heroic, saving lives, blah blah blah...and then becoming Onslaught and trying to destroy the world. It's a total slap in the face).
I guess my point in this is that there are always going to be upsides and downside to everything, including this game. Are we always going to be happy with it? No. Is it still fun? Mostly. Personally, I feel as though there has been enough deception with Issue releases. My roommate was telling me last night that Blizzard is raising the level cap on WoW to 70. When will that happen? We don't know yet. But at least they're talking about it. Nice to know those devs value their customers. At this point, I don't feel like a valued customer, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Also, even though I should know better than to do this, I'm putting a link in my sig to a copy of all my powers and their slotted enhancements up. Please, before any negative comments about it, I am aware of how Stamina, Health, Shadow Fall, and Tactics are slotted. I'm not changing them. I'm playing City of Heroes, not City of Respecs.
http://home.comcast.net/~themavericks/Rokpowerset.html
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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I remember, just after City of Heroes release, people who would pull scores upon scores of Hellions, CoT, Skulls, and sometimes Hydra to the Atlas Park Gate in Perez Park. It was an incredible sight. Course, the unsuspecting were thus griefed, but the massive battle that took place was incredible to watch. At the time my character was at a low 12, so I would hover in the air and heal or ressurect where needed. But it was something.
Havn't seen such action like that since post release, but the memory is terrific yet fond.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.
Next?
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You erased your pvl'd tank because you couldn't adjust and you use the mediocrity card?.....The irony of this post is.....amazing! lol
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I erased by Tank because the changes that started back in I3 with Rage rendered her a chore to play rather than a joy. I never once powerleveled her. Every level was earned by playing. I'd tapped out every contact in the game, done every storyline, fought every AV multiple times, taken on multiple reactor trials above and beyond what I needed for respec purposes to help others out or just for fun. Multiple people told me I was the best tanker they'd ever teamed with. So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.
A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
You ought take that to heart.
My original point still stands. With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Was there a need to fix it? Tank defense got nuked especially that of the inv tanks and then with the diversified enhancements it got nuked even more. My level 50 inv tank with all defense and resist maxed would die if he could agroed two groups let alone keep that agro. I say Fix my tank.
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So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.
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You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!
Welcome to a more balanced game.
What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?....You are just addicted to what became a broken AT in the late levels. If you really invested all those hours in your tank and erased it like he was level 5....read your Abraham Lincon's quote!!!
2 SG friends did the skyraiders AND freaks respec trial as a duo. Illusion/rad controller and Ice/Ice blaster. It wasn't a surprise they could do it, but.....A mission which should be based on teamwork is duo'ed and people say the game's balanced?!?!.......When I fancied it, I could solo invincible missions designed for 6/7 people (except AV and heavy Psi opponents). I fought +7 carnies when I got a "look for 45 carnies in the streets of PI" (without ring mistresses or master illusionists). I could herd half the friggin' Dreck mission map. I'm sure you could do that too. If that's what made you great in other people's eye, there were 100,000 others like you. Stroking your online ego is gratifying, but....get real....
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A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
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You need to read that another hundred times boy because this:
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With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.
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Proves nothing and makes Abraham Lincon right.
Anyway, it's been amusing. Keep up your lost crusade, I'll be playing and having fun with my tank and other assorted characters....ah, you won't be able to play your tank, you erased it.....
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However, imop, once I buy something, it is no longer THEIRS. It becomes MINE. The consumer. You don't go out and buy a sofa and say "this is Rooms-To-Go's sofa," you say. "this is my sofa." Period.
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Bit of a side issue, but you don't own software. Ever. You own the disc it came on, and the box it was in, and the manuals... but the software, never. What you bought is a license allowing you to use it, and perhaps make an archival backup. Hence the End User License Agreement, which restricts how you can use it.
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So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.
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You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!
Welcome to a more balanced game.
What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?....You are just addicted to what became a broken AT in the late levels. If you really invested all those hours in your tank and erased it like he was level 5....read your Abraham Lincon's quote!!!
2 SG friends did the skyraiders AND freaks respec trial as a duo. Illusion/rad controller and Ice/Ice blaster. It wasn't a surprise they could do it, but.....A mission which should be based on teamwork is duo'ed and people say the game's balanced?!?!.......When I fancied it, I could solo invincible missions designed for 6/7 people (except AV and heavy Psi opponents). I fought +7 carnies when I got a "look for 45 carnies in the streets of PI" (without ring mistresses or master illusionists). I could herd half the friggin' Dreck mission map. I'm sure you could do that too. If that's what made you great in other people's eye, there were 100,000 others like you. Stroking your online ego is gratifying, but....get real....
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A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
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You need to read that another hundred times boy because this:
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With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.
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Proves nothing and makes Abraham Lincon right.
Anyway, it's been amusing. Keep up your lost crusade, I'll be playing and having fun with my tank and other assorted characters....ah, you won't be able to play your tank, you erased it.....
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Did I say mediocrity equaled the inability to fight +5s? Did I say anything at all about herding Dreck maps? I despise herding, it's incredibly boring. Did you not notice where I said I had not been powerleveled even one level?
Stroking my online ego has no place here. If you'll read what I said, I never claimed that I was a great tank. I would not make such a claim when I know there are a lot of other great tankers out there, some of whom I personally admired. It was something that other players, and not just a few, said to me. I'm not going to deny that it was true, because from their perspective, it probably was.
Once again you're ascribing motives and practices to me that you cannot support and attributing things to me that I did not say.
Besides all that, if someone cannot even spell, capitalize, or punctuate correctly, their intelligence is most likely not high enough to take their arguments seriously. There's another quote applicable to this situation: "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
But please, do continue, it's quite amusing to watch your mental and linguistic flailings.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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This is just absurd... You fixed herding already !! =P Caps on number of targets for AE attacks was to fix herding =P 5-mob cap on taunt was to fix herding =P
This doesn't "fix" anything -- this BREAKS a tanker's ability to tank situations that regularly arise =P My JOB as a tanker is to keep aggro of however many mobs aggro... sometimes that number will be 2 or 3 groups at once... I mean, I get -- even though I don't agree with -- that my job is NOT to be able to single handlely survive that many mobs at once... I have a controller or defender to help me do that. But my job is most certainly to take the damage of whatever happens to be still moving =P
I just can't believe how much y'all have gutted tankers in this game... Y'know -- I5, not a big deal in the long run. Made things harder -- but not so much as it wasn't impossible, just enough so it was actually fun & challenging... ED also not a big deal in the long run -- needed a respec, but in the end, anything I could take with I5, I could take with I5 + ED. But this is absurd =P
Good lord.
Just bite the bullet and remove the Tanker archetype from the game, already.
I love how this was put in with NO announcement whatsoever.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson