Aggro cap. Herding is forever dead.
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-10-27 15:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
So, now that herding is dead, any chance you might roll back some of the other changes you've made to impair it in the past, like (for example) the timed Shadowhunter missions? It's hard enough to find a decent team in the 40s now, let alone one that can take down an AV post-ED.
Either Statesman hasn't fully explained the system (which is entirely possible, given that he tends NOT to explain himself particularly well and leaves great big gaps which either yes-men or angry players fill in until he steps in to confirm that one side is right or wrong), or this system will be exploitable and immersion-breaking.
If this is your "fix" to AI, you need to work harder. I'd rather have a real fix than something like this. Make the AI more dynamic, smarter, more challenging instead of just changing who stands around looking like a smacked [censored] while I beat the hell out of his compatriot not more than two feet from him.
You know what I hate? I hate kung fu movies where the hero takes on one guy at a time out of a group of like 30 guys. It's like "Wait your turn, Disposeable Badguy #5! #4 through #1 still have to get their chance to fight." That seems like the direction COH is moving.
In fact, that's pretty much how it's ALWAYS been, even when you had enemies attacking at range. Tell you what. Roll up a new character. Make him, say, a blaster. Run up to a spawn in Atlas of Hellions. Try to find a group of one LT and three minions. Attack a minion. Notice how he runs up to pound on you with a baseball bat, but at least one if not both of his minion buddies stand back and plink away at you with pistols?
That happens throughout the game. It's the "Wait your turn, #5" problem, and this particular "fix" only makes this issue MORE glaring.
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All I ask is this: CoH is a superhero game. If you don't like that it is a superhero game, go to another MMO. Asking for the game to be balanced and teamwork oriented is like taking the Super Friends and telling them their powers must be balanced with each other!
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And this's the point where I say, "what're you smoking?" Seriously, this "it's a superhero game!!11!!01010!" crap has got to go.
Do you guys honestly think that it'd be any fun playing Superman on a team setting? If it would be for you, how about the rest of the team who does jack [censored] but watch you stomp stuff. Because the way THEIR powers work makes them obsolete to you.
You are not Superman. You never will be Superman here. You are a hero "extra", the nameless ones you see in comics from time to time.
You are not extraordinary from other heroes in the city.
In short, YOU ARE NOT STATESMAN!!!
So get over it. They are not going to let you blatantly outlevel every other AT in the game you could've played, and make teaming with other ATs totally worthless other than for spawning more.
If anybody else uses Marvel or DC characters as a rationale for how this totally different COOPERATIVE computer game should be modeled, I'll hold them down and beat them with my shoe.
~Fed Up Rock~
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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After thinking about it overnight, I think I understand now.....Statesman the character is meant to be the only buttkicker Tanker in the game, so the rest of us tankers must be nerfed down to come in line with that. Man and I thought the Statesman of the comic was arrogant.
Actually I think there are some valid points, where is the kickback to us tankers to compensate for what we have lost. It does seem strange that Tankers and their abilities seem to be getting so much "love" lately.
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This will mean I don't need Taunt any more, which is a net plus.
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So... what role do you see your tank being in?
Me? I like to protect my less-defended teammates by being able to hold the aggro of the things we're fighting.
I honestly hope people aren't abandoning taunt because they saw it as a herding tool and not a somewhat essential ability for an effective tank to have.
lol... boggles my mind a bit.
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Right, INSTEAD of gutting our powers! And you wonder why you are so reviled?
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Riiight. Sadam Hussein is reviled. GWB is reviled. The CoH Devs are guys and gals who type on keyboards to make a video game. Nothing to revile here, move along!
Ten points for Hans!
Taunt's not a herding tool, least it wasn't designed to be. It's an ag controller.
If I'm kenning the original non-herding intent of it, it was to let you stand stationary with a lot of guys on you and snag off problematic mobs at RANGE from your healers etc.
Aint about herding, it's about keeping those five strays who got by you off the Blaster long enough for him to kill em.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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This will mean I don't need Taunt any more, which is a net plus.
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So... what role do you see your tank being in?
Me? I like to protect my less-defended teammates by being able to hold the aggro of the things
we're fighting.
I honestly hope people aren't abandoning taunt because they saw it as a herding tool and not a
somewhat essential ability for an effective tank to have.
lol... boggles my mind a bit.
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You hit my point exactly, HansJanus. You see, a well-played Tank can keep aggro on 12-15 mobs WITHOUT Taunt, Auras and Punch-voke can handle that (especially since I can replace other enhancement with Taunt Duration because of ED)
Taunt is really only needed to grab momentary aggro from LTs/Bosses who peel off to attack a damage dealer..who, now, with ED, is doing less damage (and so my Taunt effects are harder to break).
I can replace Taunt with a melee attack, and be absolutely fine. Since there is now a Taunt limit, no ability the Tank has available will keep 2 full spawns on him, and the main use for Taunt was to... 1) Grab initial aggro (not applicable due to the 17-mob limit), and 2) Pull fleeing mobs back to him (unneeded due to the new limit).
Which is nice, since there are other powers I'd like to take.
I understand that this is a perverse viewpoint, but it's quite true. Taunt no longer has a use to an "active" Tank. For a "passive" Tank, Taunt has a hard limit of 5 targets per use, so you can't keep your team safe unless you are very active or have a Taunt aura....so if you're keeping your team safe post-I5...no need for Taunt.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
This was probably already mentioned, but if i remember corectly one of the reasons for the brain bashing nerf bat of I5 was to reign in the plvlers and herding. I do remember ppl telling the devs that an AI fix would do the same thing without having to nerf ppl. And now they did the AI fix after 2 hardcore nerfs from I5 and I6. Why? You nerfed "herding" missions and every AT across the board to discourage herding and now after the nerfs add an AI fix? Does that mean you'll be restoring us to superhero status now or are we doomed to the status of common thugs and police officers?
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i just want to know what it is that u have against herding?
[/ QUOTE ]States hates having powerlevelers in his game. It's that simple.[ QUOTE ]
do u think that if some one gets powerleveled to 50 that they
will just quit playing?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, he does. He think's they'll get bored because there is no end-game yet and they'll leave. That's why he hates having powerlevelers in his game.
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Yes, he does. He think's they'll get bored because there is no end-game yet and they'll leave. That's why he hates having powerlevelers in his game.
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Quoted from the truth, there is no end game they have been promising it for a long time now but we got nothing . The only thng they have managed to come back with so far is that we have pvp 
My level 50 has been dying to get some action hell I could have had 3 level 50's by now but 50 means the fun ends so I usually start stalling around the 40's.
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Gues they REALLY Wanted to nerf herding hua?
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Nerf Herder!
So all I have to do is aggro 17 Rikti Monkeys on me and that boss will never attack me?
Scorus
yeah well many of my questions altho serious have an element of toungue in cheek to them.
its my socratic method i guess.
but its not like herding with a tank is the only way to PL.
and i honestly disagree that PLing to 50 will make people
quit since it seems to be only the hardcore addicts and altoholics that do most of the PLing anyway, and they are prolly many of the people whove logged in the most hours.
anyway
why would a villan ignore u after u punched him in the face and set him on fire?
"oh wait" says the villan, " that guy's is already fighting too many guys, i better leave him alone, that wouldnt be fair"
what kind of villan has that sense of compassion?
RETARDICULOUS!
this "fix" seems like an ez way out instead of making
the AI smarter and more dynamic.
they still stack and blindly follow so they are as stupid as ever.
maybe even stupider now that u can be standing right next to them fighting all their buddies with out them even turing to look at u.
its even more unrealistic then b4.
oh and as if they will ever rollback previous nerfs.
if anything there will be more anti leveling nerfs as they have already demonstrated that they think people are leveling too fast. its not just power levelers that are affected by this.
any tank who is (albeit barely) capable of solo herding in a
hazard zone etc now is not able to aggro as many baddies at once so now a solo grinder is limited as well.
this was personally my fav method of leveling, it is not cheating at all but i am being treated as if it were.
dont give me this crap about intending that these mob sized were for groups of 5 either because as a player i should have a choice whether or not to solo a bunch of mobs, and previously i was capable
of doing so. so what, now u are against soloing?
who wants to solo in an MMORPG u say? lots of people, plus
the fact that many people play at different hours other than peak when it can be hard to get a team even if u want to.
or people dont have the time to commit to a team but would like to play a video game they payed for without being punished because some other people are leveling too fast.
u know, its sad cuz i was actually ok with ED, i really dont mind it that much ( not 100% thrilled, but i can live with it,
plus i actually like some of the changes)
and the new content, PvP zones, CoV, all of this has me so excited about the game(s). i think they did a really cool job
and most of the updates i think are great.
but these stealth anti-herding sidekicking nerfs not only piss me off for being unanounced, but i really think they hurt the
game, especially the way i like to play.
and im not surprised to find out that im not the only one who feels this way. its seems alot of people are hurt by this also.
i play this game alot and have always been accepting of the changes made and many of them i felt were an earnest attempt to improve the game and i respect that, its alot of work for the Devs and they were usually pretty responsive to the players.
but now it seems like they are using corporate legal loopholes to get out of explaining changes they are making to punish everyone for the actions of the few.
it all comes down to freedom of choice, which is being restricted. i thought heroes (super or otherwise) were supposed to stand up for people freedoms, the ability to choose, etc.
even tho your game is laden with metaphors for freedom and justice, its ironic that u are actually taking away previous freedoms people have enjoyed.
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So all I have to do is aggro 17 Rikti Monkeys on me and that boss will never attack me?
Scorus
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It appears highly exploitable doesn't it?
I wonder if I can aggro 17 robots and attack Anti-Matter with impunity, eh?
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RETARDICULOUS!
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I love that word!
More likely, if you have 17 rikti monkeys attacking you, and you attack the chief soldier, one of the monkeys looses interest.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
He won't attack you on his own. But if you attack him, he'll attack back.
Think of it as the boss having a fear effect applied to him.
This applies to AVs as well, I suspect.
So, yeah, assuming this works the way I think it does, you could aggro 17 grey minions, and stand 2 inches from an AV, and nothing would happen until you hit the AV, who would attack you once and go back to buffing his nails.
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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So you'll be rolling back the global defense nerfs that were explicitly put in place to prevent herding, right?
Silly me.
I'll go back to my support group for sub-par Trick Arrow Defenders now, don't mind me.
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Right, INSTEAD of gutting our powers! And you wonder why you are so reviled?
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Riiight. Sadam Hussein is reviled. GWB is reviled. The CoH Devs are guys and gals who type on keyboards to make a video game. Nothing to revile here, move along!
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reviled
adj : assailed with contemptuous language
Sounds pretty accurate to me. There's evidence enough in this very thread. The term doesn't appear to be restricted to public figures. So, as you say, "move along!" 
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Aint about herding, it's about keeping those five strays who got by you off the Blaster long enough for him to kill em.
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The problem comes when those 5 guys utterly ignore your taunt because they were part of the 2nd group that aggroed and you already have 17 guys looking your way.
You missed a question: "Why do the Invulnerability set encourage herding when herding is frowned upon?" (this is a Invincibility reference).
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
A hard cap is not an AI change. Get your terms right.
People stop complaining that these changes reduce your enjoyment of the game. Jack Emmert does not care.
And stop calling him Statesman, he lost the moral right to use a superhero name about I4.
"To crush your enemies,
See them driven before you,
and to hear the lamentation of their women."
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Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...
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You have only defined the size of the herd. Cowboys will now just round up their 17 cows and then move onto the next 17. LOL I bet herders will just come back and say...
"Thanks for making herding safer now States, sometimes my eyes got to big for my powers and I rounded up to many."
note to development team: Make the bad guys smarter, not dumber.
Villian one: Hey man, that hero just smacked you on the side of the head. You just going to take that?!
Villian two: You obviously did'nt get them memo from lord Recluse "No more then 17 villians on a hero at one time." and I count 17 over there. I will just wait till one is defeated, then I go in, you can come in after I am defeated.
Villian one: But we could both be shotting him with our guns from here!
Villian two: Have you seen Recluse? he's a scarey [censored] and I am going to follow the memo! Besides one more demerit and they take away my cafe privileges.
Villian one: You are an idiot and I quit.
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One of the posters discussed his Tanker – and how he leaped into the fray with 2 Bosses, 2 or 3 lts. And 2 or 3 minions…and promptly had to flee. A spawn such as that in a mission would be designed for 5 heroes.
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A tanker would not want 17 mobs on him
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Until they're in a team. Cause with buffs from a defender or two, a blaster adding damage in, and two scrappers holding an enemy for themselves, even Ice Tankers can easily take 17 mobs on them.
In those situations, though, the Tanker is screwed now. I've seen single spawns with more than 20 enemies in them on solo Rugged, which I quickly bugged, thank you so very much. In a teamed setting faced with those enemies, a tanker can do nothing to help with the last 3. And in the right situations, those last three will be more than enough to TKO a squishy.
Good idea, bad when added to existing nerfs, and a bad number chosen.