DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
Oh wait, he is giving the community exaclty what they wanted?
pfft...........
Good Grief.
What about unresistible defender debuffs in PvP is so difficult to understand?
Defender debuffs are suppose to not be resistable in the arena so are you going to stay with your word on this or now are they magically going to be resisted by these debuff resist bonuses? If they are going to be resisted I know a lot of players who are just going to stop playing the arena. You already have so few people playing in the arena that changes like this are just idiotic.
The problem was that defense was bad yes but you missed the entire point. It is bad against accuracy bonus powers(aim/buildup/etc); it wasn't bad against defense debuff powers if you think it was then I'm very very afraid because obviously you don't play the same game all us costumers are playing.
Please let me understand because right now this is extremely bewildering. What the hell is your vision for defenders because right now and how things are changing every person should just delete their defenders.
Reading skills are so needed these days. It seems to have eluded a few of my gentle readers that certain powers are more or less core to a powersets. The Dark and Rad anchor powers are generally considered to be core to their respective sets. Take them away and the other powers are somewhat small potatoes.
Also, I have tested them out. Really. A lot, even. When you actually get your Dark/Dark to 50, let's talk. Feel free to play him in the Arena on Test. Let me know what you find out. I'd love to hear of viable tactics for a D3 in PvP. Because without them, it's looking as though 3 new zones are going to be worthless to me.
To Jade:
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Jade why is it unfair to compare a controller to a scrapper yet it is fair to compare a Resist Tanker to an Dodge Tanker. If a scrapper should be more soloable then a controller, then it seems its just as fair to say that a Resisttanker should be more solable against a def-debuffer then an Dodge Tanker.
To Pirate
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On that shard thing. One day we will have to do that. I am just not there yet. I have 15 toons that I play all different ATs and different power concepts. I try to keep many of them close in lvl so I can get an even sense of comparison. My best and favorite by the way is the Mace/Stone tanker and I have avoided most of the Stone powers just because I cant stand half the animations. Yes, I am susceptable to mez, but I love the challenge and I refuse to take taunt (just aint heroy enuf for me). And, I am debt free (at the moment), but its probably because I am lucky.
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I Just want to point out I dont mind them making Dodgey guys better. I just would not want mine to be more resitant when they just need to be more dodgey. The whole idea of a dodgey hero is that he is awesome until he gets hit.
Thats why DDs arch-enemy is bullseye. Perhaps they need to raise the Defense bar of all the powers so that when he is def-debuffed it merly brings him down to normal defense levels. Thats what I would expect at least.
When my Blaster starts getting hit I either finish my opponent or bust a B for Boogie.
When my Tanker loses all his resistances I either bash it out or bust a find a rock to hide under to clear my head and reassert my defenses.
When my dodgy guy starts getting clipped, ("wow, how did that hit me. Perhaps I underestimated him") Its time to back off and come back in with a much more cautious approach.
Its that "until" that is evermost important. I kind of disagree with the whole blurring the until line just because they call you a Tanker.
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What about unresistible defender debuffs in PvP is so difficult to understand?
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Not sure about this, but slows do seem to be resisted by ice and SR in PvP. I am not a PvP nut, and have limited experience. But it sure feels that way the few times I have confronted those with slow and -recharge reistance.
Have you ever been one shotted by a controler Pirate? Don't forget folks that Defender debuffs can NOT be resisted. This is a controler issue. We don't have aim! My arguement is for Rad, Storm and Trick Arrow Controlers.
BTW here are a few tips on how to remove defense debuff toggles :
<ul type="square"> Go out of range untill such toggles are dropped. Imobilizing a controler prior to leaving range makes it even easier!
Stun/Disorient/Mez Mr. Controler. If your build has no attacks which produce such a result, buy a few Stun grenades.
Stealth/inviz/phase the debuff away.
Buildup and Defeat the Controler.
[/list]
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Also, I have tested them out. Really. A lot, even. When you actually get your Dark/Dark to 50, let's talk. Feel free to play him in the Arena on Test. Let me know what you find out. I'd love to hear of viable tactics for a D3 in PvP. Because without them, it's looking as though 3 new zones are going to be worthless to me.
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Since you obviously HAVE played a D3 to 50, you'd know that you don't t even HAVE any Defense Debuffing powers.
While your gripe "may" be justified to a certain degree, you're in the wrong place for it.
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Defender debuffs are suppose to not be resistable in the arena so are you going to stay with your word on this or now are they magically going to be resisted by these debuff resist bonuses? If they are going to be resisted I know a lot of players who are just going to stop playing the arena. You already have so few people playing in the arena that changes like this are just idiotic.
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What, the weakest tanker and scrapper sets become somewhat more survivable in the arena, and people will quit in outrage? Oh noes.
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The problem was that defense was bad yes but you missed the entire point. It is bad against accuracy bonus powers(aim/buildup/etc); it wasn't bad against defense debuff powers if you think it was then I'm very very afraid because obviously you don't play the same game all us costumers are playing.
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Actually, one of the problems that SR and Ice ran into consistently in PVE was that there are dozens of powers that debuff defense. What's with the vocal contingent of PVP players assuming this change has anything at all to do with PVP?
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Please let me understand because right now this is extremely bewildering. What the hell is your vision for defenders because right now and how things are changing every person should just delete their defenders.
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This is hyperbole.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Uhm, maybe I'm playing a different Dark Miasma set than other people, but the resistance to defense debuffs doesn't look like it has any effect on Dark Miasma's accuracy, damage, and damage resistance debuffs.
Also, aren't defender debuffs supposed to be unresistable in PVP? Why not test it and find out rather than assuming that you're gimped (assuming you have actual defense debuffs to be gimped).
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You realize you just contradicted yourself in re debuff resistance? I think Res Ipsa Loquitur definitely applies to your 'rebuttal'.
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As some players have pointed out, Defense builds (Super Reflexes, Ice Armor, Stone Armor to a degree) have an inherent weakness in that there are a plethora of powers that debuff Defense in PvE and PvP.
In order to rectify this situation, we will be adding a Resistance to Defense Debuffs to a number of powers. This Resistance will not be enhanceable, but it will increase over level.
The Resistance % for the powers and Archetypes are as follows. The two numbers represent the Resistance at levels 1 and 50, respectively:
Scrapper
Super Reflexes
Focused Fighting: 4/21.6
Focused Senses: 4/21.6
Agile: 2/10.8
Dodge: 2/10.8
Lucky: 2/10.8
Evasion: 4/21.6
Elude: 10/54
Tanker
Ice Armor
Frozen Armor: 5.2/27.2
Wet Ice: 5.2/27.2
Glacial Armor: 5.3/27.2
Stone Armor
Rock Armor: 5.2/27.2
Rooted: 5.2/27.2
Crystal Armor: 5.2/27.2
Granite Armor: 13/68
The way this works is that the % above represent the amount subtracted from the incoming Defense Debuff. For instance, a level 50 Scrapper with Agile has any incoming Defense Debuff lessened by 10.8%.
Our general philosophy was to make it so that a player could achieve at level 50 high protection against Defense debuffs; a Defense build absolutely depends on the enemy missing his attacks!
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I don't understand.... Do these "stack?" If I pop Elude with all toggles and passives, does that mean I totally resist defense debuffs at level 50? Or do I just take the Elude number?
I'll assume they don't stack, but that only solves the problem of the plethora of def debuffs (which I guess is what you were going for). It doesn't solve the plethora of large tohit buffs. Nor does it solve that defense debuffs are additive and resistance debuffs are multiplied (i.e., with resistance you can never have equal resistance than someone without resistance, but you CAN have an equal chance of being hit when debuffed with or without defense).
edit - missed the last post by States somehow. Still, SR is the only one that will potentiall be able to get 100% or more def debuff resistance, so the two other issues still apply, when it's NOT at 100% or more.
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I agree that this is needed, and a good solution. But for PvP, isn't 100+% debuff resistance from SR a little too high? I feel that 80% for Ice is fair, and maybe 70% for SR befitting the scrappers better damage.
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Well a Scrapper's Resistances cap at 75%. I always thought that was any Resistances, not just ones vs Damage.
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What's with the vocal contingent of PVP players assuming this change has anything at all to do with PVP?
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I can answer that Kali. From States' original post:
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As some players have pointed out, Defense builds (Super Reflexes, Ice Armor, Stone Armor to a degree) have an inherent weakness in that there are a plethora of powers that debuff Defense in PvE and PvP.
In order to rectify this situation, we will be adding a Resistance to Defense Debuffs to a number of powers. This Resistance will not be enhanceable, but it will increase over level.
[/ QUOTE ]
However, he hasn't said how this was actually going to work. Anything anyone says regarding the issue is pure speculation.
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a Defense build absolutely depends on the enemy missing his attacks!
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what the hell. these defense builds are all scappers and tanks. they have medium to high hit points. the people who rely on defense debuffs to keep themselves alive and actually have a chance in a battle are controllers and defenders (LOW HIT POINT).
In my opinion this change is worst then suppresion and the toggle range nerf. If you guys don't want defenders in the arena just say so; I'll roll up a stone tanker very quickly.
And once again . everyone get to see why this game really isnt suited for PvP
But sure Statesman , keep nerfing us in PvE while you desperatly try to adjust things . Whats next ? Let me guess ...
You gonna nerf Focus Accuracy because it lets everyone hit everything ... While its not such a big issue in PvE , it suddenly become a real problem in PvP right ? Damn PvP ...
Then , Build Up and Aim maybe ? Its just too good in PvP right ?
Finally , when the "defensive" sets will be efficient then youll start to adjust the offensive sets to make them "more" efficient ? Of course, youll do it by nerfing defense like you did in I5
In the end , there is no way to make your PvP system much entertaining because unlike FPS games where players rely on reflexes , speed and knowledge of the map , your system is in the end nothing more than players facing each other clicking buttons and waiting for the highest number to determine who wins and who lose ...
While your game concept still carry some entertainment in PvE , it just doesnt translate well in PvP by design ... Its just not fun for players to eat the pavement because the opponent had the big numbers on his side or had the scisors while you were showing paper ...
In my opinion , PvP is great when speed , reflexes , aiming and surprise decide the outcome . But if i want to play a game like that , i would go play Medal of Honor , Battlefield 2 , Unreal or Quake which are all really great for that stuff ...
CoH is simply about : accuracy % vs defense % and damage per second vs resistance/regen/hp ... Theres just not enough left to reflexes and luck here ...
I foresee more useless nerfs coming in and you ?
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Reading skills are so needed these days. It seems to have eluded a few of my gentle readers that certain powers are more or less core to a powersets. The Dark and Rad anchor powers are generally considered to be core to their respective sets. Take them away and the other powers are somewhat small potatoes.
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They're not taken away. I seem to recall when I was researching my radiation defender builds (I've got a Rad/Dark, Rad/Rad, and Rad/Elec) that Radiation Infection, Enervating Field, and Lingering Radiation are the three cornerstones of debuffage. Getting all three and slotting them up, getting AM and slotting that up are key to having a good radiation defender. The two anchors debuff four different things - only one of which might be resisted, but only if the devs have abandoned the "defender debuffs cannot be resisted in PVP" rule established when the arena was introduced.
Dark Miasma's debuff is certainly central to Dark's ability to debuff - but it debuffs accuracy and damage. It doesn't debuff defense. The ability to resist defense debuffs has zero effect on Dark Miasma. I do not see the point of even mentioning it here, as it simply can't be affected by this change.
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Also, I have tested them out. Really. A lot, even. When you actually get your Dark/Dark to 50, let's talk.
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Oh, yeah, because sometime in the next six levels, my dark's gameplay is going to change drastically. Is it because I'll get Total Focus at 47? Or Temporary Invulnerability at 49? Is it because I'll have Power Buildup six-slotted at 46?
All of my primary and secondary powers have been chosen and slotted out to where they're going to be slotted out for the next six levels. Please tell me what aspect of gameplay will drastically change in those next six levels, 12 slots, and two power selections that I could not possibly have seen so far.
It couldn't be the missions, because I've done most of them sidekicked up with my SG. I've fought most of the Praetorians and even Babbage.
[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to play him in the Arena on Test. Let me know what you find out. I'd love to hear of viable tactics for a D3 in PvP. Because without them, it's looking as though 3 new zones are going to be worthless to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm still not understanding your objection to the defense debuff resistance and how it applies to Dark Miasma. I don't understand how the changes in I5 make it difficult to PVP with Dark Miasma. Your debuffs are unresistable, right? So what is the problem? Is this just agitating for change for defenders in a thread that's not really about defenders?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Well a Scrapper's Resistances cap at 75%. I always thought that was any Resistances, not just ones vs Damage.
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EDIT- I really think that this is an excellent idea! I just am not sure about 100% debuff resistance in PvP. I think the 75% and 90% caps should come into play here.
You might be right. Wothout testing, defender debuffs might truly be irresistable in the arena (while controller debuffs are not?).
Besides, who ever fully slots RI for defence debuffs? Most defenders are instantly put down if their RI is not 6 slotted for -acc. (I don't even know if Hammi-Os can double up -acc and -def... so no comment there).
Was a -30%(?) defence debuff from RI really killing all defence builds? I have a feeling that Accuracy buffs were far more detrimental.
One Question
What are you going to do about the lack of reliable protection DEF builds have against anyone with perma or nearly perma +ToHit buffs, i.e. Blasters and Body Mastery Scrappers?
Supporting statements for this question:
I'm sorry but when my Dark Defender can cycle through Power Build Up and Aim so that I never miss an SR Scrapper there's something wrong with them. Everyone knows that a Blaster can easily do the same. From my own experience I've also seen that Focussed Accuracy completely ignores +DEF powers not to mention -Acc powers. Put an SR Scrapper up against these and watch him wither.
Don't get me wrong, this is definately a step in the right direction but I feel that it is not quite enough when you look at the PvP aspect of this game. As it stands, I wouldn't dream of bringing a DEF build into the Arena unless I knew the other guy's keyboard didn't work.
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Uhm, maybe I'm playing a different Dark Miasma set than other people, but the resistance to defense debuffs doesn't look like it has any effect on Dark Miasma's accuracy, damage, and damage resistance debuffs.
Also, aren't defender debuffs supposed to be unresistable in PVP? Why not test it and find out rather than assuming that you're gimped (assuming you have actual defense debuffs to be gimped).
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You realize you just contradicted yourself in re debuff resistance? I think Res Ipsa Loquitur definitely applies to your 'rebuttal'.
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Could you explain how I contradicted myself?
Because all I said was that Dark Miasma isn't affected by the resistance to defense debuffs, and that you should test whether resistance to defense debuffs affects Radiation Emission or Trick Arrow (the sets that actually have defense debuffs).
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
However, he hasn't said how this was actually going to work. Anything anyone says regarding the issue is pure speculation.
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Which is why I suggested that people go to the arena and test it.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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What are you going to do about the lack of reliable protection DEF builds have against anyone with perma or nearly perma +ToHit buffs, i.e. Blasters and Body Mastery Scrappers?
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How bout you do what controlers do! Brawl till focused acc goes down and RUN when Aim/Buildup goes up?!
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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
[/ QUOTE ]Ahoy there matey! Keep yer distance while I dance me a jig, wouldn't want me hook catchin' ya in the navel. Me thinks the sun is finally going to break through the storm clouds that have been a hanging like an albatross 'round me Super Reflex neck. Five stars to ya matey, and may they be bright as the moon when she's low in the sky.
[ QUOTE ]
One Question
What are you going to do about the lack of reliable protection DEF builds have against anyone with perma or nearly perma +ToHit buffs, i.e. Blasters and Body Mastery Scrappers?
Supporting statements for this question:
I'm sorry but when my Dark Defender can cycle through Power Build Up and Aim so that I never miss an SR Scrapper there's something wrong with them. Everyone knows that a Blaster can easily do the same. From my own experience I've also seen that Focussed Accuracy completely ignores +DEF powers not to mention -Acc powers. Put an SR Scrapper up against these and watch him wither.
Don't get me wrong, this is definately a step in the right direction but I feel that it is not quite enough when you look at the PvP aspect of this game. As it stands, I wouldn't dream of bringing a DEF build into the Arena unless I knew the other guy's keyboard didn't work.
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LOL . I knew it I knew someone was to ask to nerf Focus Accuracy .
You know what , in the end , if someone challenge you for the arena and you see that he has powers that might invalidate your defense , it may be wise to decline the challenge By concept this game let players select their powers and its VERY likely that in the world someday youll get your rear badly beaten by someone who isnt better than you but happens to have exactly the right powers to take you out . What can you do about it ? No AT can defend against everything ya know ...
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
I don't care if FA gets dropped to TD levels, so long as the end cost gets dropped as well. I'd rather see how to-hit buffs interact with defense change than see the powers just nerfed outright, though.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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if you find you can't handle having your debuffs resistsed, I suggest that you learn to play better. If you don't like two sets in the entire game negating your def debuff, deal with it.
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I agree that this is needed, and a good solution. But for PvP, isn't 100+% debuff resistance from SR a little too high? I feel that 80% for Ice is fair, and maybe 70% for SR befitting the scrappers better damage.
What defence debuffs function at -100% in PvP? I would love it if my Rad defender was that powerful but would recognize that it was imbalanced. A lone RI debuff could never negate SR and Ice primary. It was overpowered, but not to the extent of accuracy buffs.
Under the current numbers, a RI can have it's defense-debuff debuffed (say that 5 time fast) by 100% against SR, and 80+% from Ice. This seems silly to me, but I don't really care. Defenders are even more borked in PvP than you poor SR scrappers, so nerf us to he11 and not much changes.
So much for irresistable debuffs!