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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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For PvP...would a defenders defense debuff still be unresistable? If I recall correctly all defenders debuffs are meant to be unresistable.(PvP only)
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Havent test defender debuff on that new resist but as far as i know, the unresistable debuff is working so all defender debuff should still bypass that new protection
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And to Pirate Fanboy, I HAD a tough time with them before, thy're getting an Additional Buff while I'm watching my Resistance debuffs getting LOWERED because a FEW have trouble with it.
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Yarr? resistance debuffs? if they be affected, that's bollocks says I. Even with the sonics, res debuffs are few and far between. Def debuffs on the other hand, i find those on more streetcorners than trollops!
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Great start, Statesman!
Now we need to deal with the ToHit Buff problem. As it stands, Aim+Buildup+Accuracy enhs can negate all the defense that an SR scrapper can come up with, even with elude. Could we make the values you have here be unsurmountable by ToHit Buffs?
In other words, if I have both FF and Dodge at 50, could I have 32.4% defense (or less if my actual defense totals for those powers is less) so that my defenses aren't negated?
To further explain, if I don't have FF and dodge slotted, I would have 17.5% defense against all attacks, minus the adjusted defense debuffs if present. But if I have them fully slotted, I'd have my max unsurmountable defense at 32.4% minus any adjusted defense debuffs.
Or do you feel that if someone dumps the slots and power choices to have buildup + aim + accuracy enhs, they SHOULD be able to floor everyone's defense?
Lastly, this change does not the scaling discrepancy between damage resistance and defense as enemy level increases. What are your plans for that?
Hoping more changes are coming to cover these two areas and maybe even more changes to add further types of damage mitigation to the defense based sets.
EDIT after reading thread: Wow...they stack against all debuffs? That's.... awesome.
And you're already looking at the ToHit Buff issue.... excellent.
That really only leaves the scaling issue and quite frankly, if you fix ToHit Buffs vs Defense and the enemy level scaling issue, I'll be so damn happy that I won't bother asking for other forms of damage mitigation.
6 slotted health and a couple of dam-res insps for AVs will do just fine for me.
If they can still one shot me, so be it. I'd still be happy that the deck is no longer flat out stacked against me.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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I don't know about the rest of the CoH community, I only know what I see......
And if this is because of PvP, again you are going against what you said about PvP not being the driving force on power changes, etc.
I don't PvP....I have never pVp'd, I don't care about pVP, and really don't understand what all the hype about Pvp is.
If I wanted a PvP experience, I would have gone onto WoW and talked trash.
pVP should not be the contributing factor in anything that is PvE. PvE is what CoH is.
Sometimes, I impress my boss. Sometimes, I impress myself. The rest of the time, I scare people. I can live with that.
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Having played /SR to 50, and Ice/ to 48, alongside other equal level scrappers and tankers respectively, trust me when I say this is needed.
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With all due respect pirate, I think this shows itself not to be true. You made it to lvl 50 and probably could do so soloing easily. I doubt that easy soloing part can be said about a controller that specializes in defense debuffing or healing.
Sometimes it is difficult without help and easier with it.
1) When a Hold Controller faces a High Mez Resist Villain it would be nice to have some damge dealing help.
2) When a squishy Blaster gets hit into defiance range by a heavy damage dealing Villain he wishes he had a tanker to draw agro
3) When an empathy controller gets overrun by a mass of mobs in a solo mission does he wish he was just the one sitting back and healing and letting a scrapper or tanker do the dirty work.
I see you made it to level 50. Why, because you found a way to do it. Well, I think its only fair that I get a chance to do it as well with the same obstacles you had to overcome.
Not every power needs to be balanced in PvE just because it is unsuitable for PvP. If so we better start massively pumping the SLOW aspect of Howling Twighlight. What will the Devs do to fix Resurection perhaps it needs a damage component, the power is useless in PvP.
How my build who has Vengence, thats just plain useless in one-on-one PvP? Ahhhh and there we have it. Remeber even PvP balance is not supposed to be a function of One-On-One matches. You have to either be extremly crafty and extremly lucky to beat the odds or you just need some help.
It seems even Superman can use Batmans help from time to time (hint: Check out some old Brave & the Bold issues)
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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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I don't know about the rest of the CoH community, I only know what I see......
And if this is because of PvP, again you are going against what you said about PvP not being the driving force on power changes, etc.
I don't PvP....I have never pVp'd, I don't care about pVP, and really don't understand what all the hype about Pvp is.
If I wanted a PvP experience, I would have gone onto WoW and talked trash.
pVP should not be the contributing factor in anything that is PvE. PvE is what CoH is.
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This doesnt affect PvE as much. What are you talking about? Maybe something to do with the few mobs that throw Rad Infect but does it matter? Granted, there are enemies that do -def but it wasnt as "serious" per se. Rularuu were harsh but as long as you didnt have more then 2 eyeballs, you were fine 
Plus, it wasnt until PvP that we saw truly how broken Def Debuffs and ToHit Buff equations were
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This is still an issue with FF versus Sonic Resonance. The same things that debuff defense for melee debuff defense for FF.
That is, I think, one of the first discrepencies pointed out between the two sets; FF suffers from far more debuffs than SR.
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Yep, was wondering why nothing here for Force Fields.
This is a service-oriented business, and it's all
about keeping the player happy over the long term.
So you have to listen and pay attention. If a large
portion of your playerbase is screaming about
some change, you be wise to listen. - Raph Koster
Yarr!
Anyway, well done. Does this apply only to defense debuffs, or to ToHit buffs applied against someone with a defense set? The latter are as much a problem as the former, and functionally almost the same.
States...comparing the numbers btwn SR and Ice, it looks like the scrapper can totally out-perform the tank for resisting def debuffs. If they both have all relevant toggles on, the scrapper has a higher total resistance than the tank does!
And from Havoc's number crunching spreadsheets, it looks like SR was already superior to the Ice tank.
These changes sound great! Don't get me wrong. Between this, and dmg resistance insps, Ice tanks will be doing a LOT better than before. But I still think a tank should have a better base defense than a scrapper.
I'm very happy for SR and Ice, been a long time coming, but what about Invulnerability? First it got it's resistance sliced to nothing, now their defense won't be on par either? I don't get it, seems like Inv is getting the short end of the stick on both fronts.
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I'll Raise you and invite you to a little play session with Outlaw torn and myself. I can Barely hit him. Whats that you say? Wait till his Elude runs out?! That sounds like a Jolly old time! I'll catch up on some needlepoint while I Inviz in a corner somewhere and wait for his Elude+Defence toggles+Inherant defence+his resistance to defence buffs to go down. There is Definately a problem with the changes and PvP. Again I'll Gladly show you.
And to Pirate Fanboy, I HAD a tough time with them before, thy're getting an Additional Buff while I'm watching my Resistance debuffs getting LOWERED because a FEW have trouble with it.
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Ice Tanks don't have Elude.
When you throw Elude into the picture the survivability of Ice VS SR is completely out of whack.
Wow. Just wow. This sounds GREAT. Can't wait to see this in action.
I actually feel a bit perky. That's just SO wrong.
"Ooo! A little fight in you! I like that..."
"Then you're going to love me."
Thank you, Statesman. Between the resistance inspirations and this, I do feel that you guys are evaluating the defense-based sets. The actual numbers I'll have to go test, but qualitatively, this seems like a very helpful thing. (For those whining it won't affect PvE, I think it may very well; my /sr scrapper hasn't run into the stacked quicksands yet, but it seems like most villain gun attacks have a def debuff that can stack up pretty quickly).
Task Forces shouldn't need 8 people to start ... it's not fun.
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Having played /SR to 50, and Ice/ to 48, alongside other equal level scrappers and tankers respectively, trust me when I say this is needed.
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With all due respect pirate, I think this shows itself not to be true. You made it to lvl 50 and probably could do so soloing easily. I doubt that easy soloing part can be said about a controller that specializes in defense debuffing or healing.
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A Controller is not supposed to be able to solo with the same relative ease as a Scrapper. He IS supposed to be able to solo, or at least that is what the devs are trying to accomplish, but the Controller will never be as capable as the Scrapper. Therefore, to compare a Scrapper to a Controller and say that he is "not broken" due to that comparison is incorrect.
Most of the people in this thread are referring to Scrapper builds as compared to Scrapper builds, and Tanker builds compared to Tanker builds. SR Scrappers are not as capable as other Scrappers, and that's in PvE, not PvP. A number of reasons have been given for this discrepancy, and that Defense can be easily debuffed is one of them.
Force Fielders may be Defenders, but again that is an example of comparison of Defender to Defender. The Force Field Defender has many of the same issues compared to Sonic as Defense-based Scrapper/Tanker builds have against other Scrapper/Tankers. It has nothing to do with Controllers or the other kinds of Defenders.
There are mez issues with Controllers, and issues of survivablity with Blasters, but these are issues that need to be considered separately. It doesn't have anything to do with Defense Debuffs.
Arrrr Statesman. this be an interesting idea.
But I needs ta be askin' ye.
Just how complicated do ye plan on making these things anyhow?
point, counterpoint, point, counter point. etc, infinity
until planning out a build becomes like doing yer taxes: long complicated and boring as all hell.
Arrrrr
Just out of boredom, here are some numbers for SR scrappers. It's an Excel spreadsheet and shows the defense debuff resistance by level and power. There's a spot toward the bottom to enter in your level and powers and have it calculate automatically, too.
A couple warnings about its accuracy: I made the assumption that the resistance scales up linearly by level, and this may not be true. Also, in the calculation at the bottom, I'm assuming the resistance from all the powers stacks, like Statesman said above.
Yarr, just be taking all the powers and slotting them like a 3 year old whats been dropped on its 'ead and you'll be fine.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Having played /SR to 50, and Ice/ to 48, alongside other equal level scrappers and tankers respectively, trust me when I say this is needed.
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With all due respect pirate, I think this shows itself not to be true. You made it to lvl 50 and probably could do so soloing easily. I doubt that easy soloing part can be said about a controller that specializes in defense debuffing or healing.
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Actually, I took my scrapper to 41 without Practiced Brawler(I was a noob, I thought acrobatics is only available at lvl 20, it must be better than PB at 12). That means whenever squishies talk about lack of mez protection, I understand completely what they mean. My first 25 levels or so with my /SR were done with the aid of an empath as a duo. My next 10 levels were tagging along with a fire/energy blaster who was higher level than me. The next 5 levels were solo. By 38 I ran out of missions, and tried to street hunt my way to 40, because the people I usually teamed with were MIA. This took me a month relative to the 6 to get to 38. Don't tell me soloing was easy. After that I started soling carnie and malta missions, which are some of the only enemies that /SR doesn't do poorly against.
The fact is, a SR scrapper should be overall equivalent to a Regen, DA, and Invuln, and they aren't. Ice tanks should be overall equivalent to Inv, Fire, and Stone, and they aren't. My Ice tank couldn't solo until the I5 changes. My scrapper could solo, yes, but the concept of longevity was non-existent. Most of the time when a defense based melee goes down, it's because of consecutive hits. You get hit, your defense is lower against the next hit, so you get hit again, and now your defense is even lower. When defense is your only means of damage mitigation, this means your going down fast, and probably won't have time to hit that inspiration, or for another player to heal you, or to get off that last hit to get rid of an enemy.
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I see you made it to level 50. Why, because you found a way to do it. Well, I think its only fair that I get a chance to do it as well with the same obstacles you had to overcome.
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Tell you what. Let's go run a Shadow Shard TF together. Last night I did it with 3 regens and an Invuln Tank(others dropped). In the missions where I didn't get a sound looping error (approx 4), I died at least once. On one mission, I died about 10 times, on average probably 5 deaths/mission. The regens at best, died half as much. I was using strategy, I took out watchers first, starting with bosses, and my team was competent. That's the only reason I survived as much as I did. At this point is should be obvious I don't really care about debt anymore, I'm just frustrated by the fact that I could be helping my teammates, but instead I'm dead, and I have to ask my teammates for an awake, again.
My points are not about PvP, I don't really care about it. I like that the devs are addressing the problems defense sets face in PvE, and I'm sorry you can't see the problems that exist. I'm especially happy that they aren't trying to fix these problems with normal resistance, but instead with a defense flavored change.
Oh, Bakka, I am so with you on this. Rads and Darks and even the new Trick Arrow defenders are yet more nerfed for PvP. I had given up totally in the Arena until a friend gave me some tips on how to stay mildly viable. This tears it. What is the point of our debuffs anywhere near PvP?
My holds have been nerfed, my anchor has been gimped and now my debuffs are crippled. And for what reason? Because the whiniest bunch of losers in the game (scrappers and tankers) didn't like being held, debuffed and gelded like the weaklings they actually are. So to 'even' the playing field all that has been left is raw damage and raw defense. Thank you ever so much.
The best time I had on Test was when the Arena first debued and players could experience what each others powersets actually do. A lot of clueless morons found that they could not fight a human player the same way they fought NPC's. They pitched, they moaned and they whined. And I have been nerfed to extinction. I used to get tells after Arena matches from people who finally understood what a Dark/Dark defender could do and why it was nice to have one around. Now the Arena leads to a discounting and an under-appreciation of defenders because our powers (unless you're a pure empath) are nowhere near as effective in PvP.
If you find you can't handle being debuffed, I suggest that you learn to play better. If you don't like being held, deal with it.
My experince of the Arena can be summed as this. The meatshields uniformly fail to do their jobs. The defenders are universally the targets of every one else, because we are the most vulnerable. It is the job of the Tanker and to a lesser degree the scrapper to absorb damage, but this they almost never do.
But I'm not bitter. Not at all.
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If you find you can't handle being debuffed, I suggest that you learn to play better. If you don't like being held, deal with it.
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if you find you can't handle having your debuffs resistsed, I suggest that you learn to play better. If you don't like two sets in the entire game negating your def debuff, deal with it.
yarrr
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Oh, Bakka, I am so with you on this. Rads and Darks and even the new Trick Arrow defenders are yet more nerfed for PvP. I had given up totally in the Arena until a friend gave me some tips on how to stay mildly viable. This tears it. What is the point of our debuffs anywhere near PvP?
My holds have been nerfed, my anchor has been gimped and now my debuffs are crippled. And for what reason? Because the whiniest bunch of losers in the game (scrappers and tankers) didn't like being held, debuffed and gelded like the weaklings they actually are. So to 'even' the playing field all that has been left is raw damage and raw defense. Thank you ever so much.
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Uhm, maybe I'm playing a different Dark Miasma set than other people, but the resistance to defense debuffs doesn't look like it has any effect on Dark Miasma's accuracy, damage, and damage resistance debuffs.
Also, aren't defender debuffs supposed to be unresistable in PVP? Why not test it and find out rather than assuming that you're gimped (assuming you have actual defense debuffs to be gimped).
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My experience of the Arena can be summed as this. The meatshields uniformly fail to do their jobs. The defenders are universally the targets of every one else, because we are the most vulnerable. It is the job of the Tanker and to a lesser degree the scrapper to absorb damage, but this they almost never do.
But I'm not bitter. Not at all.
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If I were tanking for you, I'd forget to taunt too. What with being a whiny loser and all...
I still don't understand why it's okay to completely negate an entire primary or secondary with one anchored debuff (Radiation Infection), but it's not okay for an entire primary or secondary to resist one aspect of that anchored debuff, while you still have accuracy debuffs, damage debuffs, damage resistance debuffs, speed debuffs, and recharge debuffs to fall back on. It's almost like Radiation Emission has more to it than debuffing def.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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States...comparing the numbers btwn SR and Ice, it looks like the scrapper can totally out-perform the tank for resisting def debuffs. If they both have all relevant toggles on, the scrapper has a higher total resistance than the tank does!
And from Havoc's number crunching spreadsheets, it looks like SR was already superior to the Ice tank.
These changes sound great! Don't get me wrong. Between this, and dmg resistance insps, Ice tanks will be doing a LOT better than before. But I still think a tank should have a better base defense than a scrapper.
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Ice tanks do have better defenses, all told. Hoarfrost alone makes a huge difference in survivability. SR has greater resistance to defense debuffs in total because SR *only* has defense. If you look, you'll see that they added debuff resistance to all the defense powers of defensive sets. The reason that SR looks like it has better numbers is that it doesn't have the damage resistance or the slow debuff of Ice Armor.
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States...comparing the numbers btwn SR and Ice, it looks like the scrapper can totally out-perform the tank for resisting def debuffs. If they both have all relevant toggles on, the scrapper has a higher total resistance than the tank does!
And from Havoc's number crunching spreadsheets, it looks like SR was already superior to the Ice tank.
These changes sound great! Don't get me wrong. Between this, and dmg resistance insps, Ice tanks will be doing a LOT better than before. But I still think a tank should have a better base defense than a scrapper.
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Ice tanks do have better defenses, all told. Hoarfrost alone makes a huge difference in survivability. SR has greater resistance to defense debuffs in total because SR *only* has defense. If you look, you'll see that they added debuff resistance to all the defense powers of defensive sets. The reason that SR looks like it has better numbers is that it doesn't have the damage resistance or the slow debuff of Ice Armor.
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Ice only has resists to cold, fire, and toxic damage - which it has no defense against.
Hoarfrost doesn't make such a huge difference that Ice should have less resistance to defense debuffs.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Oh, Bakka, I am so with you on this. Rads and Darks and even the new Trick Arrow defenders are yet more nerfed for PvP. I had given up totally in the Arena until a friend gave me some tips on how to stay mildly viable. This tears it. What is the point of our debuffs anywhere near PvP?
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1) Dark Defenders don't debuff Defense. Irrelevant here.
2) rad Defenders/Controllers have been "the" set of choice for PvP since it was first introduced. It's the combination of their Resistance/Defense/Slow debuffs that made them over-powered back then. Now that they've been reduced to more reasonable levels, Rad is right where it should be in MOST PvP encounters.
3) Trcik Arrow is, by it's very nature, a difficult set to use in PvP. The way the debuffs are applied are what make it hard to use, not the debuffs themselves... not to mention that their only Def DeBuffing power also does DoT, which (for balance purposes) makes it a weaker debuff anyway.
Yar! this be a good day fer Swashbucklin' indeed.
Bartender give yonder man in the red 'n blue garb some grog!
And te all ye who be sayin' purps be solvin' swasbucklin' debuff I give that yellows be solvin' swashbucklin'.
Smooth sailings and clear skies te all ye none the less.