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Shouldn't Invuln now be included in this as well since its one +Def power is the backbone of the set and is a larger chunk of an Invuln tankers power than all the resist powers combined?
Invuln is no longer considered a Resistance based set. It should be looked at in these discussions and changes as well.
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Invulnerability does have some reliance on defense, but despite the popular opinion around here it's not a "defense-based" set. No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called "defense-based".
That said, Invulnerability does feel a bit anti-thematic lately, and certainly relies on defense to a greater extent than it once did. If it doesn't get tweaked to have better resists and less +defense, I think that giving Invincibility a partial defense debuff resistance makes sense. I'd rather see the former.
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No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called "defense-based".
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Huh....Granite Armor friend. 90 resist to everything -psi, Earth's Embrace a better form of Dull Pain, Rooted a regen rate compairable to Intergration (only behind by the 50% non-enhanceable part). Granite armor itself offers a substantial resistance to defdebuffs.
If Granite can do that and get that resistance can you now explain why Inv that lost all its non-S/L resists can't?
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Huh....Granite Armor friend. 90 resist to everything -psi, Earth's Embrace a better form of Dull Pain, Rooted a regen rate compairable to Intergration (only behind by the 50% non-enhanceable part). Granite armor itself offers a substantial resistance to defdebuffs.
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Granite armor is only 50% resistance. Sure, you can slot it up, but if you slot that instead of defense you're looking at about 28% defense with it up, being as it's exclusive with the other armors. So, no, a stone tanker running Granite Armor can't really be considered to be using a "defense-based" set.
This also ties in with my earlier post, wherein I said that Ice should have better debuff resistance than Stone or SR.
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If Granite can do that and get that resistance can you now explain why Inv that lost all its non-S/L resists can't?
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Can you not read? "If it doesn't get tweaked to have better resists and less +defense, I think that giving Invincibility a partial defense debuff resistance makes sense."
It would make perfect sense to give Invincibility a debuff resistance on par with Granite Armor, if Invuln remains significantly reliant on +defense.
I honestly think since as people have said all resist powers grant resistance to resist debuffs shouldn't all defense powers do the same?
MoG for instance. It is clearly a defense power. Yes it has resistacne but you pay for it in health, actually pretty much even up 71% resist to all -psi for 75% drop in health. Not only that MoG removes your other defense as a regen healing.
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This also ties in with my earlier post, wherein I said that Ice should have better debuff resistance than Stone or SR.
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While I'll agree with you that Ice should have better defense resistance than stone as it is more dependent on defense, I disagree that it should have more than SR. SR has nothing but defense where Ice has a self heal than increases max hp as well as a damage mitigation power.
OK... so when is this going to make it on test? I'm getting antsy about testing it out. In short, I would like to test it.
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Tanker
Ice Armor
Frozen Armor: 5.2/27.2
Wet Ice: 5.2/27.2
Glacial Armor: 5.3/27.2
Stone Armor
Rock Armor: 5.2/27.2
Rooted: 5.2/27.2
Crystal Armor: 5.2/27.2
Granite Armor: 13/68
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As long as invuln/ tanks are going to be def-based instead of damres-based, might I suggest that tough skin and invincibility should offer similar resistance? As well as Unstoppable?
I'm just sayin'... 
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Granite armor is only 50% resistance. Sure, you can slot it up,
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Huh....Well no Inv power comes with 90 resist to S/L either.....guess you could slot them up or just pick more of them...
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Granite armor is only 50% resistance. Sure, you can slot it up,
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Huh....Well no Inv power comes with 90 resist to S/L either.....guess you could slot them up or just pick more of them...
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I think the point was that you can slot up Granite Armor for resistance, or defense, but not both, so if you slot up Granite Armor for 90% resists, it won't have a lot of defense, making it not really a "defense-based" set. If you slot up GA heavy for defense, then you can't get 90% resists.
So while Stone as a set can be heavy resistances and heavy defense, no individual stone tanker can really be both at the same time, so his original statement "No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called 'defense-based'" suggests that there does not exist a set that allows a specific hero to both have 90% resists and nevertheless claim to get the majority of its mitigation from defense ("defense-based").
Of course, this brings up the invincibility argument, but that, most agree, is a special case.
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Granite armor is only 50% resistance. Sure, you can slot it up,
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Huh....Well no Inv power comes with 90 resist to S/L either.....guess you could slot them up or just pick more of them...
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I think the point was that you can slot up Granite Armor for resistance, or defense, but not both, so if you slot up Granite Armor for 90% resists, it won't have a lot of defense, making it not really a "defense-based" set. If you slot up GA heavy for defense, then you can't get 90% resists.
So while Stone as a set can be heavy resistances and heavy defense, no individual stone tanker can really be both at the same time, so his original statement "No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called 'defense-based'" suggests that there does not exist a set that allows a specific hero to both have 90% resists and nevertheless claim to get the majority of its mitigation from defense ("defense-based").
Of course, this brings up the invincibility argument, but that, most agree, is a special case.
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Actually even if you slotted Granite all defense stone could pull a 90 resist to S/L, or really close if desired. Stoneskin offeres 12.5 base S/L resist its a passive and does stack with Granite and if they wanted they could have tough also. That would give you 77.5 resist with stone skin with even SOs. One slot in granite would bump you to 87.5, or tough would cap you. Either way you'd have 5 or 6 slots in granite for defense.
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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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I don't know about the rest of the CoH community, I only know what I see......
And if this is because of PvP, again you are going against what you said about PvP not being the driving force on power changes, etc.
I don't PvP....I have never pVp'd, I don't care about pVP, and really don't understand what all the hype about Pvp is.
If I wanted a PvP experience, I would have gone onto WoW and talked trash.
pVP should not be the contributing factor in anything that is PvE. PvE is what CoH is.
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I'm thinking that the introduction of PvP to the game has brought to the attention of the developers several holes in the games balance that needed to be fixed, both PvP and PvE. These imbalances may not have been as obvious in PvE alone, but now PvP has brought them to the front and they are now being addressed.
I had a quick idea relating to the whole problem of buffed accuracy. Heres my suggestion: add a dodge capability to certain defense powers. This would function like a defense mechanism, but with one very important difference: it would never be measured against the enemys accuracy, level, or rank. It would simply be there, similar to the 5% chance of being hit. This percentage would be absolutely independent, even from the characters defense, and would be could not be stacked with the dodge probability on other defense powers, or be upgraded.
<ul type="square">[*]Example: Super NinjaX super reflexes character activates Focused fighting. This boosts his defense, and grants him a 20% dodge probability. The stats on his enemy would have no effect on this number: there would simple be a 1 in 5 chance he would be missed. He goes up against X enemy, who happens to be several levels above him, with an accuracy buff power running. With just plain defense taken into account, Super NinjaX has little in the way of protection. But, with the Dodge probability built in, he has 20% protection, no matter what. Enemy X attacks SuperninjaX, and the number first goes through the dodge probability. If the hero happens to dodge, nothing else is necessary. Dodged blinks over the hero, as critical does for scrappers. If the 80% wins over, however, the accuracy of the attacker is run up against the defense numbers on Super NinjaX, and he is squished, as his protection means little against the higher-level enemy and his buffed probability to hit.[/list]I know this seems a like it's complicating an already complex matter, but I think having an independent variable would go a little ways in making up for the deadliness of toHit buffs, which are, in effect, debuffs to defense-based powers.
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I think the point was that you can slot up Granite Armor for resistance, or defense, but not both, so if you slot up Granite Armor for 90% resists, it won't have a lot of defense, making it not really a "defense-based" set. If you slot up GA heavy for defense, then you can't get 90% resists.
So while Stone as a set can be heavy resistances and heavy defense, no individual stone tanker can really be both at the same time, so his original statement "No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called 'defense-based'" suggests that there does not exist a set that allows a specific hero to both have 90% resists and nevertheless claim to get the majority of its mitigation from defense ("defense-based").
Of course, this brings up the invincibility argument, but that, most agree, is a special case.
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Actually even if you slotted Granite all defense stone could pull a 90 resist to S/L, or really close if desired. Stoneskin offeres 12.5 base S/L resist its a passive and does stack with Granite and if they wanted they could have tough also. That would give you 77.5 resist with stone skin with even SOs. One slot in granite would bump you to 87.5, or tough would cap you. Either way you'd have 5 or 6 slots in granite for defense.
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And yet, a) you've stepped outside the set, and b) you're still not receiving most of your mitigation from defense, which Arcanaville correctly pegged as my probably obtusely-made point.
A character with 90% resists isn't really "defense-based", in the sense that defense matters more than resistance or health regeneration for damage mitigation. It's fun hyperbole to pretend that Invulnerability is a "defense-based set" now, but it isn't actually true, and that should be kept in mind when asking for debuff resistance in it.
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I think the point was that you can slot up Granite Armor for resistance, or defense, but not both, so if you slot up Granite Armor for 90% resists, it won't have a lot of defense, making it not really a "defense-based" set. If you slot up GA heavy for defense, then you can't get 90% resists.
So while Stone as a set can be heavy resistances and heavy defense, no individual stone tanker can really be both at the same time, so his original statement "No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called 'defense-based'" suggests that there does not exist a set that allows a specific hero to both have 90% resists and nevertheless claim to get the majority of its mitigation from defense ("defense-based").
Of course, this brings up the invincibility argument, but that, most agree, is a special case.
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Actually even if you slotted Granite all defense stone could pull a 90 resist to S/L, or really close if desired. Stoneskin offeres 12.5 base S/L resist its a passive and does stack with Granite and if they wanted they could have tough also. That would give you 77.5 resist with stone skin with even SOs. One slot in granite would bump you to 87.5, or tough would cap you. Either way you'd have 5 or 6 slots in granite for defense.
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And yet, a) you've stepped outside the set, and b) you're still not receiving most of your mitigation from defense, which Arcanaville correctly pegged as my probably obtusely-made point.
A character with 90% resists isn't really "defense-based", in the sense that defense matters more than resistance or health regeneration for damage mitigation. It's fun hyperbole to pretend that Invulnerability is a "defense-based set" now, but it isn't actually true, and that should be kept in mind when asking for debuff resistance in it.
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No need to step outside the set.
StoneSkin (6slots)+ Granite (1 resist 5 defense) gives you 90 resist with +1 SOs.
That gives you 90 resist S/L same as Inv and better resists to everything else then Inv. Excuse me how is that more defense dependent then Inv? Sorry your simply wrong. Inv has more defense and less resist then a granite tank how is a granite tank more defense based?
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No need to step outside the set.
StoneSkin (6slots)+ Granite (1 resist 5 defense) gives you 90 resist with +1 SOs.
That gives you 90 resist S/L same as Inv and better resists to everything else then Inv. Excuse me how is that more defense dependent then Inv? Sorry your simply wrong. Inv has more defense and less resist then a granite tank how is a granite tank more defense based?
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ARGH! LEARN TO READ!
This post of mine is going to be redundant but It needs to be o it gets engrained in the devs mind.
I can see what this nerf is trying to accomplish. More diversity to our slotting other then the basic slotting for certain powers. But how do this make it more diverse. Soon we'll figure out the optimum slotting for our power just like we have now on live. So instead of changing our min/maxing jut realize that this doesnt make it more diverse but jut narrows our choices even more on slotting.
As far as the fun factor goes, well its not going to be fun. I'm crying out dooom, but what is thi suppost to solve or change? Let us play the game weve loved for so long. As it stands now I've preordered a game called City of Villains that I dont know if I even want to play now, and don't plan on resubcribing.
I guess this is the so called "straw" that broke the camels back.
Please think this through devs.
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No need to step outside the set.
StoneSkin (6slots)+ Granite (1 resist 5 defense) gives you 90 resist with +1 SOs.
That gives you 90 resist S/L same as Inv and better resists to everything else then Inv. Excuse me how is that more defense dependent then Inv? Sorry your simply wrong. Inv has more defense and less resist then a granite tank how is a granite tank more defense based?
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ARGH! LEARN TO READ!
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Yes you might try that.
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No need to step outside the set.
StoneSkin (6slots)+ Granite (1 resist 5 defense) gives you 90 resist with +1 SOs.
That gives you 90 resist S/L same as Inv and better resists to everything else then Inv. Excuse me how is that more defense dependent then Inv? Sorry your simply wrong. Inv has more defense and less resist then a granite tank how is a granite tank more defense based?
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ARGH! LEARN TO READ!
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Yes you might try that.
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What's wrong with you? How many times does one have to say "Invulnerability is not a defense-based set, but should probably get some of this debuff resistance because it does rely, somewhat, on defense", before it makes sense to you? How many times to I have to point out that don't think Invulnerability should have less debuff resistance than Stone before you stop asking me why I do think that? How many worthless little "gotcha" posts are you going to throw out before you realize that you're off-target?
Well, i must hand it to the devs. They have officially been more of a dissapointment to the game then anyone thought possible. *claps* Majority of the people who love this game with all their heart, have just given up on posting here in the forums, because they're cry is never answerd. All anyone seems to respond too is the lack of intellegence of people who complain about this or that. *wah his char is stronger then mine... go get that char then if they like it so much* *wah wah* If people would just sit here and let the game be the way it was intended, instead of the way they have changed it with peer pressure by ingorent people into the game it is becoming, a game where everyone who used to love it is starting to wish they never played so it wouldnt hurt so bad when they quit. What does anyone really intend to accomplish by this? I understand PL-ing was an issue to some people, but nerfing the Tank was definitly not the best decision. Now what it says on the download screen about "taking damage and dealing it out" is completely a lie. They no longer can do what the tank was intended to do. And the blaster, changing the slotting with the new diversification, will keep the blasters dead because he only reason blasters can stay alive is soley based on killing the mob quickly as they have no defence and low hit points. (ex. mobs such as the Malta who have sappers will be impossible because there will be no way to take out the sappers before they sap all your endurance). They are making it Impossible to Solo, along with impossible to do all the great things we once could do. If only the devs thought of the game and the people who have been here since the beginning and look to COH every day and cheer them on, instead of all the whiney people who just want some attention. It's not fair to nerf the game out of existance just because some newbees think it appropriate. If people do not agree with what your doing to your game, think about it, its your game, if they dont like it they can take they're money and their time else where. And if loosing money and people is an issue, you should leave it the way it is and stop nerfing everything, or else you will just loose more then you will gain. People want to be able to demolish things, 6 slot their powers and feel powerful, heal everyone super fast, and taunt them and laugh while they are arrested. Making missions hard and things harder to complete, totally understandable. But making it impossible completely is another story. I've loved this game since the beggening, but with every update is another dissapointment.
Hear my cry devs. Please listen to he people who care about the game. Don't mess it up.
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What's wrong with you? How many times does one have to say "Invulnerability is not a defense-based set, but should probably get some of this debuff resistance because it does rely, somewhat, on defense", before it makes sense to you? How many times to I have to point out that don't think Invulnerability should have less debuff resistance than Stone before you stop asking me why I do think that? How many worthless little "gotcha" posts are you going to throw out before you realize that you're off-target?
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As soon as you realize that just because you don't think Inv is a defense based set doesn't make it so. Sorry your opinion just doesn't make it a fact.
Invul wasn't a Defense set infact the power description even proves you wrong. The thing is Invul has been turned into a Defense set now and thats what a lot of old Invul players don't like.
Invul vs the Other sets was always supposed to boast Utility.
Fire: Best Damage and good Resist.
Stone good Defense, Huge Resists, and Regeneration.
Ice: Res to Cold and slows, Defense and thats one of the reason it sucks.
Invul: Scalable Defense (<---Overpowered?) and Great Resists.
Now officially Invul is a defense set that can only boast its herding ability. How funny that the bulk of the Invul players have always wanted Invincibility Nerfed and keep thier Title as a Res set.
Now I do like this idea Statesmen....in fact I love it. I've seen SR scrappers get hit once and die due to the fact they have no resistance...just defense. Makes SR actually playable now
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Now I do like this idea Statesmen....in fact I love it. I've seen SR scrappers get hit once and die due to the fact they have no resistance...just defense. Makes SR actually playable now
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This won't have any effect on the one-shotting of SR scrappers. They're not getting resistance to damage, they'll just resist defense debuffs.
Devs, again, I suggest that "debuff resistance" be called "debuff counteraction" instead, to help avoid this sort of confusion.
I'm happy to see that occassionally somehing is GIVEN to the players instead of taken away. I can't complain about the specifics, but... It's still obviously PvP balancing, which was never supposed to interfere with those of us who hate PvP.
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As some players have pointed out, Defense builds (Super Reflexes, Ice Armor, Stone Armor to a degree) have an inherent weakness in that there are a plethora of powers that debuff Defense in PvE and PvP.
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Shouldn't Invuln now be included in this as well since its one +Def power is the backbone of the set and is a larger chunk of an Invuln tankers power than all the resist powers combined?
Invuln is no longer considered a Resistance based set. It should be looked at in these discussions and changes as well.