Statesman this does not addressing the real problem with Defense builds. The real issue is to-hit buffs are far greater than defense buffs. Focused Accuracy negates all of SR toggles and so does build-up. And every melee class has access to these powers. Also have you checked how popular focused accuracy is, I bet 1 out of 3 tankers and scrappers have it. Hell Super strength tankers can negate all of SR including elude by simply double stacking rage (which they all do because the dmg bonus stacks also). Then there are blasters with Aim and build up. The list of Acc buffs is as long as the Def debuff list and far more damaging. You really want to help defensive sets out give them resistance to Acc buffs. This def debuff thing is not going to help defense builds out very much especially SR (which spends most of its PvP time in melee range with other scrappers who all seem to have Focused accuracy and build up well sloted) and is only going to trivialize the importance of certain defense debuff specialist sets like Radiation in PvP.
And as a side note, since the To-hit formula is common knowledge (to people who read the boards). You have really hurt the chances of a Def only build of being a serious PvP characters. Any serious PvP gamer reads the boards and knows exactly what powers to take and slotting to use, to negate any def build. This makes Defense builds like SR what I like to call Newbie Killers. Meaning we do great against people who dont PvP much or never read the forums but anytime we run up against a knowledgeable opponent our Defenses are useless. I think some of this would be fixed with a resistance to Acc buffs. It would make it harder to build a character which could negate Def builds.
And one more thing. What comic books are you emulating by making SR masters of dodging AoE attacks? In most of the comics I read, these types of attacks seem to be the hardest for SR type characters to dodge. Yet in City of Heroes, SR characters cant seem to dodge punches very well but they sure can dodge an explosion?
I've been outspoken and upset about the major league ABUSE that was handed to ice tanks.
For the high level game, I think this and the damage resistance inspirations truly will help. For those reasons, I salute these changes.
I'm not sure the pre 18 paucity of non s/l defense is justifiable. But I've regained some faith that the devs at least see the problems that we do.
At least some of the time.
Good change.
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Just wanted to start with: I actually enjoyed your post. It made me chuckle how you threw my jokes back at me. Awesome!
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Heh. Well, glad I could help. 
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No, you have virtually every hero capable of reducing their defenses, not to mention villains. Every Broadsword or Katana scrapper, every Assault Rifle blaster, every Radiation/* or */Radiation defender, etc.
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Hyperbole much? In terms of powersets: 2 out of 6 scrappers, 1 out of 6 defenders, 1 out of 6 controllers, and 1 out of 5 blasters. We missing anything?
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Yes, tons. To be fair, I'm wrapping ToHit buffs with Defense debuffs, which I either need to stop doing or need to stop riding other people for doing. However, almost every hero does have a defense debuff or a ToHit buff, either of which will wash out defense in the same way.
Scrappers nearly all have Build up, although you could say that Claws doesn't show this effect due to having to hit with Follow Up before breaking defense, and Invulnerability also boosts ToHit; Blasters all have Build Up, Aim, or Targeting Drone, if not two of those; Tankers have Invulnerability's ToHit buff, and generally have access to Build Up; Defenders tend either to debuff defense (Rad/*, */Rad, Storm) or apply ToHit buffs, and most have access to Aim; Controllers have defense debuffs in their primaries, Defender debuffs or buffs in their secondaries, and pet class creatures have very high accuracy to begin with. Anyone not previously listed can take Tactics.
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I guess I missed out on the "virtually every" chapter in "making a point" school.
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Here, "virtually every" is the point. Nearly a third of the powers in the game directly affect defense.
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(Love that!)
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Ffft. You're supposed to let me goad you into incoherency, so t's less work to take apart your argument. 
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Well, I suppose I should mention that most scrappers and tankers have a single power that negates most or all Controller abilities... Without slotting!
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True enough, and that perhaps should be looked at. However, PvP is not the real issue with this change; this primarily effects PvE. Remember that Defender debuffs are non-resistable.
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So 3/4 scrappers and all tankers negate Controllers pretty well. Am I saying they should lose this ability? Not really.
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I don't know that they should lose it, but cranking its effectiveness back in PvP might not be a bad idea. A power designed to stop a horde of mezzing minions is probably overpowered aganist a single controller. Again, though, that's another discussion.
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I'm just saying that every rock has its paper. Debuffs are the paper to the defensive rocks out there.
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The problem comes when Defense is paper-thin, and everyone has scissors.
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If the debuffs are really a problem for the game, just get rid of them! It's just confusing and pointless to have debuffs that don't actually debuff in an intuitive fasion.
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The debuffs will still work, they just won't have a disproportionate effect on defense-based builds. They'll have full effect on everyone else, and they'll be useful against Ice or Stone. SR probably needs to have its debuff resistance tweaked, which I've mentioned.
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What I'd rather see, what it really should have been, is a multiplicative debuff rather than additive.
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I don't know if it should have been that or not. Most heroes/villains don't have any +defense, so against them proportional -defense would be useless.
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For every offense, there should be a defense. And for every defense, there should be a counter.
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There is a counter to everything, and there still will be. First of all, this effect isn't currently applied against ToHit buffs, which still entirely dominate defensive sets. Second, this won't (or shouldn't) apply to Defender debuffs in PvP. Third, none of these sets, not even SR, is being given 100% resistance to defense debuffs, although SR is close and probably should be toned down in that area. Finally, defense is and will always be subject to a 5% minimum chance to hit and the streak-breaker code.
Defense has plenty of weaknesses. It has too many, and reducing one of those weaknesses only begins to bring it in line, it doesn't make defensive sets overpowered.
Hey states, are debuffing sets like Dark Miasma gonna get this too?
Giving Shadowfall defense debuff resistance makes perfect sense since to-hit debuffs have the same cave-at. A defense debuff basically adds numbers onto enemy accuracy like it would against defense.
I usually wouldn't think of it, but I did an Anti-Matter mission today and *shudders* oh god, the defense debuffs! They completely nullified Darkest Night's to-hit debuff and then some!
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Why, this is a bad idea:
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What you in essence are doing is taking all meaniing away from a character who specializes in defense debuffing. What is the point of defense debuffing if it is not to make an unhittable character hittable? Is the point to make some one that can already be hit be hit easier? Gosh, I hope not that does not sound like much of a power to me.
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Gosh, reflexes scrappers are still hittable, even with these changes. Accuracy SOs, Targetting Drone, Enhanced Accuracy, Build Up and Aim all pretty much negate Reflexes without Elude. (With Elude active, it's a different story, though.)
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Why is there such a problem with a set of powers having a weakness to another set of powers?:
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Superman has Kryptonite and Magic
Green Lantern has Yellow or Wood (depending on which one)
Batman and bullets dont go well if he actually gets hit
The Flash has sonics to slow him down
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In theory, I don't have a problem with this type of thinking. The problem is that Accuracy Buffers and Defense Debuffers are highly prevalent in this game.
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The greatness of a hero is defined when he defeats that which is most dangerous to him. Thats what makes them a hero, when they find another solution to defeatng their nemesis.
After all does not your datamining show that Peacebringers can survive in a world of challenge that have quantums interspersed?
Please, stop trying to make it so I can defeat every challenge without thinking.
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Let me see, my Reflexes scrapper gets stuck in Quicksand. Can't run, jump or fly out of it and becomes a pincushion. What thought was involved there?
These forums for months were complaining about Issue 4 and how nobody ever uses PvP. Now that a change (a needed change for PvE, by the way) was made, everybody is basing their arguments against it on PvP. "PvP changes shouldn't trump PvE needs" was a paraphrased battlecry.
I'm sorely confused here. PvE needs these changes but we shouldn't do them because it hurts PvP?
(When Issue 4 was on Test, my blaster OWNED Reflexes scrappers with Build Up and Aim. That took no thought to do so since I just stayed out of reach until Build Up and Aim recharged.)
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
One last comment on this:
This ability should extend to other defense-based powers.
This includes Force Fields (various powers), Invincibility, Tough Hide, Weave, and anything else I missed that grants a Defense bonus.
Invulnerability builds were essentially turned into Reflexes tankers with Issue 5. They'll need this ability.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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Beyond that, it is extremely unfair to compare SR's performance with Elude to Ice's general performance. Elude is a two-minute click with a crash that flatlines your endurance for one minute afterward, and has, at best, a two-minute down time--okay, 109 seconds if it's six-slotted with +3 recharge and you have Hasten and Quickness. It's only up half the time, and for half of the time that it's up you can't regain endurance. An SR that used it all the time would only move through missions half as fast. Elude should be taken into account in balancing the two, but the indication we should take from it is that Hibernation should be fixed, not that SRs make equivalent tankers.
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"It's extremely unfair to compare Ice's performance with SR using Elude, because that shows that SR is as good as - and in some circumstances, better than - Ice."
That's all you had to say. Or you could say, "it's unfair to compare all nine of Ice's powers to all nine of SR's powers." That'd be an even more accurate distillation of your post above. The fact is that you can time your fights so that you're not at risk when Elude crashes and that you're fighting when it's up. That gives you significantly more defensive power when you're running it.
Given that there's been at least one SR scrapper who posted demos of his perma-Elude SR soloing AVs, I do think that for the most part, the hit points don't matter. You simply need enough defense to insure that the hits don't come so close together that they hit you. This is known on the scrapper forum, but vehemently denied in any comparison of Ice and SR. And why? That's really what I want to know.
By saying that Ice does as well as SR defensively (as in, all nine powers compared to all nine powers, not in terms of +Def, which SR actually does better), that's not the same as saying that SR is defensively equal to tankers. It's saying that ice is far too weak for a tanker secondary.
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Beyond that, it is extremely unfair to compare SR's performance with Elude to Ice's general performance. Elude is a two-minute click with a crash that flatlines your endurance for one minute afterward, and has, at best, a two-minute down time--okay, 109 seconds if it's six-slotted with +3 recharge and you have Hasten and Quickness. It's only up half the time, and for half of the time that it's up you can't regain endurance. An SR that used it all the time would only move through missions half as fast. Elude should be taken into account in balancing the two, but the indication we should take from it is that Hibernation should be fixed, not that SRs make equivalent tankers.
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"It's extremely unfair to compare Ice's performance with SR using Elude, because that shows that SR is as good as - and in some circumstances, better than - Ice."
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No.
It is unfair to compare Ice's performance under normal circumstances to SR's performance under Elude because Elude is only up half of the time, and it flatlines your Endurance when it ends.
If you want to use Elude vs Ice's general performance, you have to account for the fact that an SR scrapper only fighting under Elude is gaining XP half as fast, because that character is not fighting half of the time--at best. You have to account for the fact that the SR's scrapper's endurance is zero for one minute out of four. You have to account for the fact that SR can do nothing under the effects of the Endurance crash except run away, and that slowly.
Yes, an Ice tanker who fights one minute out of two is probably the equivalent of an SR scrapper with Elude up as often as possible, provided that he also turns off all of his toggles and stops using clicks for one minute out of four.
You have to read the post, and address the points. I'm sorry that you don't like that. Ice is in a bad way, and you don't need to exaggerate that point by suggesting it's even worse for its AT than SR is.
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Given that there's been at least one SR scrapper who posted demos of his perma-Elude SR soloing AVs, I do think that for the most part, the hit points don't matter. You simply need enough defense to insure that the hits don't come so close together that they hit you. This is known on the scrapper forum, but vehemently denied in any comparison of Ice and SR. And why? That's really what I want to know.
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Okay, perhaps this is the problem. You may be out of date on your information. Elude can no longer be made perma.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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Now that's the kind of response that makes me love these guys.
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No.
It is unfair to compare Ice's performance under normal circumstances to SR's performance under Elude because Elude is only up half of the time, and it flatlines your Endurance when it ends.
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Yes, because you're completely incapable of keeping track of how long it's been up. And you can slot it to have a downtime of 71.45 seconds after 180 seconds up, which doesn't seem like 50/50 up/down.
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If you want to use Elude vs Ice's general performance, you have to account for the fact that an SR scrapper only fighting under Elude is gaining XP half as fast, because that character is not fighting half of the time--at best. You have to account for the fact that the SR's scrapper's endurance is zero for one minute out of four. You have to account for the fact that SR can do nothing under the effects of the Endurance crash except run away, and that slowly.
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So, the scrapper's increased damage + criticals don't improve the fighting speed? And the scrapper is somehow incapable of fighting for the minute or so that he has endurance regen with Elude down? The ice tanker and the SR scrapper deliver the same amount of damage over time and thus generate exactly the same amount of XP?
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Yes, an Ice tanker who fights one minute out of two is probably the equivalent of an SR scrapper with Elude up as often as possible, provided that he also turns off all of his toggles and stops using clicks for one minute out of four.
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Elude does not prevent you from using your toggles for a full minute.
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You have to read the post, and address the points. I'm sorry that you don't like that. Ice is in a bad way, and you don't need to exaggerate that point by suggesting it's even worse for its AT than SR is.
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Right, because any number of SR scrappers will leap out of the woodwork to lie about how badly off SR is, as if it weren't already in bad enough shape.
For the record, since you have your numbers completely wrong, Elude has 180 second duration, a 1000 second recharge, and debuffs your end recovery for 15 seconds - you can easily use a CAB to get endurance back early.
It's not 120 seconds, with at best a 240 second recharge and a 60-second debuff to your end recovery.
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Given that there's been at least one SR scrapper who posted demos of his perma-Elude SR soloing AVs, I do think that for the most part, the hit points don't matter. You simply need enough defense to insure that the hits don't come so close together that they hit you. This is known on the scrapper forum, but vehemently denied in any comparison of Ice and SR. And why? That's really what I want to know.
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Okay, perhaps this is the problem. You may be out of date on your information. Elude can no longer be made perma.
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I never said it could be - I said you could time your fights so you aren't fighting when it drops. Basically, if you find yourself in a bad position, you can immediately boost your defense pretty high, which boosts your survivability in most situations more than Hoarfrost can boost an Ice Tanker's. This is because flooring villain accuracy is more valuable than getting hit for reduced effect. When compared to Ice's relative inability to reliably floor most things they'll be fighting, especially.
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Are the examples of SR vs. Ice supposed to be for PvP only now? Because for PvE I'm used to running on Invincible, fighting non-stop, and only hitting Elude when I need to. Hit Conserve Power before it drops, and one CAB after it drops, and I just keep fighting on my merry way. The idea of only fighting half the time in the game does not apply to PvE one bit. Just seeking clarification.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
Okay, I checked into Circeus's original posts. The original justification for comparing Ice to SR including Elude was that Ice needs 14 mobs nearby for full effectiveness, not because you "don't have to fight when Elude is down". This is a reasonable point; it'd be nice to see a side-by-side comparison of SR w/o Elude to Ice with, say, five or six mobs, but barring that I can concede the point.
It's possible that my numbers are wrong; I only very rarely use Elude, and may be working from outdated info myself. If it's 180 seconds with 1000 seconds of recharge, it's actually only down for about 50 seconds with +3 SOs. This is actually making me consider taking it, however . . .
I solo AVs myself, with my SR scrapper--without using Elude. It's not necessary, and not really helpful. Two purples now gives me the same effect, without the crash, and a tray full of them lasts more than long enough. I'd respec out of it, but I don't feel the change is sufficient to use a respec.
Ice needs help. SR needs help. I've been letting myself get sidetracked down an argument that doesn't have a point here, and in which I had my numbers wrong to begin with. I apologize for that. I certainly didn't need to be arguing with SR proponents, defense detractors and the pro-Ice crowd.
Why, what's the matter, don't you like tackling big mobs? 
I'm going to reserve judgement until I test this out, my main interest is PvE. I may dangle my left foot in the Arena finally to see if it gets shot off or not.
I have an idea! No wait...it's just gas.
Hellscorp
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I may dangle my left foot in the Arena finally to see if it gets shot off or not.
[/ QUOTE ] Oh, it will. You're just going to have to shoot back faster and harder.
These changes shouldn't help against defender debuffs in the Arena per the current Arena rules.
Don't know if anyone said this or not, but I figured it was worth asking:
If max defense can be achieved at lvl 20 now, why can't max resistance to defense debuff? Just wondering.
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Ice needs help. SR needs help. I've been letting myself get sidetracked down an argument that doesn't have a point here, and in which I had my numbers wrong to begin with. I apologize for that. I certainly didn't need to be arguing with SR proponents, defense detractors and the pro-Ice crowd.
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Same here.
And I'm definitely an SR proponent. The set needs help. Defense in general suffers more now because it was hit harder than resists, meaning they're not ever going to be equal to resists in terms of mitigation. I don't think this is a viable place for defense-based sets to be in.
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Don't know if anyone said this or not, but I figured it was worth asking:
If max defense can be achieved at lvl 20 now, why can't max resistance to defense debuff? Just wondering.
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Max defese, just from powers, generally can't be reached before 20. SR, e.g., has defense powers that aren't acheived until 30+. You're simply allowed to reach your defense cap at 20, and that only by stacking enormous amounts of defensive powers/inspirations.
MisterNick,
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Elude is gaining XP half as fast, because that character is not fighting half of the time
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As an SR scrapper, I must refute this. When elude crashes for me, it takes all of 10-15 seconds for me to hop back, pop 3 blues, get FF and FS back on and get back into the fight. These leaves 5-10 seconds that I'm unable to recharge end. So I'll usually need to pop one more blue.
Now, if I am completely out of insps, then I'm down for maybe 30 seconds. Down half the time simply isn't true.
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Ice needs help. SR needs help. I've been letting myself get sidetracked down an argument that doesn't have a point here, and in which I had my numbers wrong to begin with. I apologize for that. I certainly didn't need to be arguing with SR proponents, defense detractors and the pro-Ice crowd.
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Saw this. Good post, sir. I value highly folks that post as you have in this thread.
I think SR and Ice are finally getting the help we've so been clamoring for. I just can't say enough how this pleases me.
Be well, people of CoH.
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MisterNick,
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Elude is gaining XP half as fast, because that character is not fighting half of the time
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As an SR scrapper, I must refute this.
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Already done for you, but thanks.
Well it is great you are addressing builds based on defense but what about the rest of us?
Ok well here is my problem. It referes to pvp. You reduced everyones defense and resistances and changes many powersetsin I5: what about my builds? I play controllers and defenders. When is the issue of overpowered debuffs in pvp going to be addressed? You have essentially made powersets such as radiation even more poweful then it already was by not reducing its base debuffs. Same applies for storm. I have to refuse matches against heavy debuff appoinents because those sets, unlike the new sets, have enhancable debuffs so you can essentially slot those powers to overcome any defense. Same applies to accuracy in the game:a storm controller can debuff accuracy over 200% i know that because my char has 6 Acc/Mez HO's and i have 6 slotted tactics and i still cant hit, and until you allow my builds to select Focussed accuracy or aimand build up there will be no balance. THere is a difference between learning to beat the weaknesses of debuffs and not being able in any way shape or form mount any kind of offense or defense. If it the intention of the developers to make this a staple for the game then let me know and ill stop complaining about it. Ive been waiting for changes to debuffs before I5! Ultimatly it is a huge imbalance when one or two powersets have an arsenal to negate most all other AT's ability to defend themselves or fight back. Running away is not a viable defense and makes the pvp experience no fun at all.
Btw i have a rad controller which i love playing and i still feel that the base debuff needs to be dramatically reduced. My controller is kninetic secondary(and no i do not use the kin bug in my matches) if you arent going to reduce other sets debuffs can you increase mine so that Syphon Power and Fulcrum SHift actualy have a chance of reduceing foe damage output like it does in pve? In PVP hero's are much more powerful then pve as they slot thier powers accordingly and if the information on the boards which ive read is correct i should be able to reduce a foes damage output to no less then 10% below base which is not only an unattainable number it doesnt even come close.
Just looking for that balance we were promised.
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Well it is great you are addressing builds based on defense but what about the rest of us?
Ok well here is my problem. It referes to pvp. You reduced everyones defense and resistances and changes many powersetsin I5: what about my builds? I play controllers and defenders.
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Which defenses are you referring to, that your controllers and defenders had reduced? Defender/controller defense buffs don't apply to themselves. If you had Combat Jumping or Hover, your defense was reduced by all of 2%. If you had Hasten, you lost 5% of your defense, but nobody has any sympathy for complaints about that particular loss. Characters with no defensive powers are in the same position relative to debuffs that they were in before I5.
Characters with defensive sets take disproportionately more damage after the same debuff, which is why they need resistance to it. The debuffs are balanced correctly for characters without much +defense, but not for characters with a ton of it.
So, can a resistance debuff power debuff defense debuff resistance?
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<snip more irrelevance about PvP and ToHit buffs>
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So, what are you going to be doing when CoV comes out, PvP zones come into existence, SGs get bases and items of power and raids come into CoH?
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PvP isn't irrelevant to the discussion of SR, it's just not terribly relevant to the discussion about this particular boost. Everyone, including the devs, have acknowledged that this doesn't address all of the issues, specifically including ToHit buffs. ToHit is the real problem in PvP.
This is a PvE fix. We're waiting on the PvP fix, but we're not discussing it in this particular thread.