I don't know if this has been touched on, but....
...with the new sonic powers debuffing damage resistance, not defense, will damage resistance be getting the same treatment? Or will it be ignored because it's perceived as being superior to defense?
I agree that damage resistance is much more reliable than defense, but defense can be superior in certain situations.
Even with sonics, there are about 50 less powers debuffing res than there are debuffing def, so probably not.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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I don't know if this has been touched on, but....
...with the new sonic powers debuffing damage resistance, not defense, will damage resistance be getting the same treatment? Or will it be ignored because it's perceived as being superior to defense?
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Resistance debuffs dont directly subtract from resistance the way that defense debuffs affect defense. They simply boost the damage suffered by a certain amount--e.g., a 30% damage resistance debuff means 30% more damage to anyone who suffers it.
Defense debuffs, by contrast, subtract linearly, and thus have a greater effect on characters that are hard to hit. -5% defense on a character getting hit 50% of the time is a 10% increase in damage--they're now getting hit 55% of the time. A character getting hit 5% of the time, who suffers -5% defense, now suffers double the damage that they were.
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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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I think the solution to this is for every defense power or inspiration, the defense floor is raised by a small amount. It could vary based on AT. For example, for every Luck used, a fifth of that 25% defense (5%) is added to the defense floor for Scrappers and Tanks, Somewhat less for Kheldians and even lower for squishies. Similarly, if an AT has a defense-based power, a portion of that power's defensive bonus should be added to the defense floor.
BTW, when I say "floor" I am referring to that 5% minimum tohit. There would have to be a cap to how much you could raise that floor.
50 Fire/Dev | 50 AR/Dev | 50 Ninjas/FF MM | 50 Bots/Dark | 50 Kin/Rad |
44 EM/Regen | 39 BS/Regen | 38 Kin/Elec | 27 Thugs/Pain
"Rare is the man so noble that he will always give thanks for that which is freely given." -Jock_Tamson
I don't think adding resistnace to Def debuffs will help for the following reasons:
1. If this is to help in pvp matches it is way too little to
make any difference. To make pvp work you need to
reduce the number of archtype to just a few and make
all powers good but also none that are very powerful.
Right now certain powers and the exitance of SOs make
it pretty much impossible for pvp to be balanced.
2. In issue 5 almost every +defense power got nerfed.
Although it was possible to stack + defense to avoid
getting hit by tough purples. The I5 nerfs made it difficult
to find a way to use and stack + defense, so in general
people think that many + defense powers are no longer
worth getting. By creating damage resist insprations and
adding resistance to Def debuffs will do little to anything
for people that relied on + defense powers. Right now
people may not be able to fight the purples they use to
but they can use other ways to survive PvE battles without
relying on + defense, or hold, or instanst healing, or any
other power that got nerfed in I5.
3.People that had one or more toons nerfed out of
usefulness are not going to care about any changes that
are going to be added to now make their toon useful
again. The only people that will be happy are the ones
that still have a toon that is useful and a glad to see that
even more power is bring given to them. If someone has
a toon that is too weak they will just give up on that toon
or quit Coh.
The bottom line is that + defense powers were useful for avoiding damage intill they got badly nerfed in I5. Now that people are giving up on using +defense the dev.s are trying to fix some of the frustration by changing the ways in which people can avoid damage. But I doubt that any changes will allow most people to regain any usefulness out of the toons that is taken away by nerfs. From what I've see already nerfs continue to punish people that have toons that are near unkillable by making the powers much less useful. Many times while they are adding nerfs they will also add new powers like definance which may make seem like they are 'balancing out' the different archtype, but almost each time the new power is too weak to notice or can only be used if your playing your toon in a way that is not effective.
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From what I've see already nerfs continue to punish people that have toons that are near unkillable by making the powers much less useful.
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Umm that was the point of the nerfs, yes? Nobody should be "near unkillable" but for all the "near unkillables" out there there seems to be an equal number of "rendered useless" heroes running around. Defence sets in PVP are one. Everyone has a magic bullet of some sort that says "Sorry no defence for you! POW!". This resistance to debuffs and the resistance inspirations go in some direction to correct the pvp inbalance and I am glad to see them.
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Umm that was the point of the nerfs, yes? Nobody should be "near unkillable" but for all the "near unkillables" out there there seems to be an equal number of "rendered useless" heroes running around. Defence sets in PVP are one. Everyone has a magic bullet of some sort that says "Sorry no defence for you! POW!". This resistance to debuffs and the resistance inspirations go in some direction to correct the pvp inbalance and I am glad to see them.
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In a way I agree that nobody should be unkillable, but when experienced players are thinking about building a toon are they going to choose the one's that are very hard to kill or one's that are difficult to to keep alive? If they choose a powerful toon they expect as they level to toon to be able to get and keep the powers that make the toon powerful. If a nerf comes out the robs them of being able to have the powers that make the toon powerful don't they have a reason to feel cheated? As for making other people that have weaker toons more powerful, I suggest that people that have weak toons should just learn more about the different archtypes and power. Expecting developers to make your toon as powerful as the other toons (while they are on a nerfing rampage) if you have a weak one is unrealistic. Ask any blaster what they think about defiance and you'll see what I mean about the problems with the improvements to weak toons.
Almost every improvement requires people to play their toon in ways that is ineffective or dangerous. If you play a blaster very few times do you want to have defiance because you have to grab aggro and take damage in order to get definace to work. Than you have to magage the aggro that you now have and hope that the increased damage is enough to kill the MoBs before they kill you. Containment for controllers is almost useful except that as a controller I rely mostly for my pets and teammates for damage. In fact the entire reason I have a controller is that I found it too difficult to play my defnder that had Radiation Emissions and so I gave up on that toon and created a illusion/radiation controller. I still attack from time to time, but I don't attack if I can heal, debuff, or summon a pet. When I do attack it does help a little but I'd rather have my pets not dumbed down than get containment. I dont know much about Vigilance, but from what I've read on the forum it is almost worthless.
As to improving PvP I do not think there is any way to make it work by constantly tweaking powers with the current system. There will always be the areana bullies that can kill 99.9% of the time anyone that tries to challege them. Not that it matters because almost nobody does PvP anyways. In order to make PvP work the dev.s have to make it more like PvE. One way would be to allow Mobs as a 3rd or perhaps 4th group into the PvP fights and perhaps make the Mobs aggro the winning side more than the losing side. Also the dev.s need to add rewards and storyline to PvP. However with the current system of Pvp I see no reason to waste any time or tweak powers to fix it.
Looks like my reasonable concern and request got drowned out the first time by some people arguing about Elude, but now that that's over...
What about sets that realy heavily on to-hit debuffs (Dark Miasma, Storm Summoning, Rad Emissions in order of dependency)?
To-hit debuffs are in the same boat as defense is. They're easily countered by to-hit buffs and defense debuffs. So adding a modest amount of defense debuff resistance to Shadowfall, Steamy Mist and Accelerate Metabolism doesn't seem unreasonable or unfair.
And while your at it can you make Dark Servant permanent? I mean, there's no reason not to.
oK Ok.... i really can appreciate the fact that we're getting a resistance to defense debuff... that's a great start.... BUT I NOTICED THAT THE REGENERATION INSTAND HEALING HAS THE SAME RESISTANCES AS Super Reflexes PRACTICED BRAWLER, although with an added regneration boost. i was curious as to why practiced brawler didn't have a DEFENSE BOOST for it's set from this power??????????
And to share a little test server run with a new build....Holy freaking cow.... the SR fixes are supposed to be a step towards helping defense, right?.... omg... i just tested in the arena against aim + build up and focused accuracy + tactics... here is my build i tested out so you can see my problem with defense:
01 : Focused Fighting defbuf(01) defbuf(3) defbuf(3) defbuf(5) defbuf(5) defbuf(7)
01 : Storm Kick acc(01) dam(7) dam(9) dam(9) dam(11) dam(11)
02 : Focused Senses defbuf(02) defbuf(13) defbuf(13) defbuf(15) defbuf(15) defbuf(17)
04 : Agile defbuf(04)
06 : Focus Chi recred(06)
08 : Crane Kick acc(08) dam(17) dam(19) dam(19) dam(21) dam(21)
10 : Practiced Brawler recred(10) recred(23)
12 : Combat Jumping defbuf(12) defbuf(23) defbuf(25) defbuf(25) defbuf(27) defbuf(27)
14 : Super Jump jmp(14)
16 : Hurdle jmp(16)
18 : Health hel(18) hel(29)
20 : Stamina endrec(20) endrec(29) endrec(31) endrec(31) endrec(31) endrec(33)
22 : Quickness runspd(22)
24 : Boxing disdur(24)
26 : Tough damres(26) damres(33) damres(33) damres(34) damres(34) damres(34)
28 : Weave defbuf(28) defbuf(36) defbuf(36) defbuf(36) defbuf(37) defbuf(37)
30 : Maneuvers defbuf(30) defbuf(37) defbuf(39) defbuf(39) defbuf(39) defbuf(40)
32 : Eagles Claw acc(32) dam(40) dam(40) dam(42) dam(42) dam(42)
35 : Evasion defbuf(35) defbuf(43) defbuf(43) defbuf(43) defbuf(45) defbuf(45)
38 : Elude recred(38) recred(45) recred(46) recred(46) recred(46) recred(48)
41 : Conserve Power recred(41) recred(48) recred(48) recred(50) recred(50) recred(50)
44 : Tactics thtbuf(44)
47 : Vengeance defbuf(47)
49 : Dodge defbuf(49)
as u can see.... defense up the wazu and still i die as much as if i never had any slots in the defense at all. Even in elude i get sacked right now on test server... However, in pvp.... all works as it should for an all out defense build... I left the toon active in a mob and they hit about 5% of the time w/out elude with this kinda defense set up.... but in pvp....even with 20 defense infpirations... build up+ aim and Focused Accuracy + tactics delivered fatal blows from a blaster and scrapper easily. So, i don't think that all applies to the new resistance to debuffs that's being offered..... that wasn't the major problem anyways.... it was the fact that SR can't use pool defense to compensate a for balancing what's available to other sets with build up + AIM OR focused accuracy + tactics. SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT ABOUT THIS EQUATION.... if defense is a mastery then it should feel like it.... and logically....defense should and has always been superior to resistance in a one on one confrontation. ALWAYS!.....
This is more of a rant to devs than for you.... just adding that i don't see that the patch has been added to any degree of significance... and in pvp the only option i had was to use a build that incorporated fear..(ala intimidate) but now that tactics has fear res that's totally out now to stop a pvp foe from engaging after his build up + aim strategy! Don't get me wrong..the tactics addition is awesome for what it's worth....however, it's just that i couldn't get a fair shot in pvp otherwise..... and an all out defense + res build like that doin poorly in the arena with pool power help and elude should sing LOUD N CLEAR THAT SOMETHIN'S WRONG!
Oh and i used SO++ on each slot.... omg!
dangit!
Honor Before Glory!
UNITED HEROES BRIGADE
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And to share a little test server run with a new build....Holy freaking cow.... the SR fixes are supposed to be a step towards helping defense, right?.... omg... i just tested in the arena against aim + build up and focused accuracy + tactics...
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The latest patch doesn't say that the defense debuff resistance has been added in yet:
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Now Testing in the Training Room - 9/23/05
Powers
F/X for all Sonic Resonance and Sonic Blast buffs and debuffs toned down. Many players complained of discomfort caused by these F/X.
Tasks
Fixed a bug that could cause a Contact to start a player on a Story Arc without giving them a mission.
Stores
The new Damage Resistance Inspirations can now be purchased in stores.
Game
Fixed a bug that caused sound to loop repeatedly and eventually crashed the game client.
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And to share a little test server run with a new build....Holy freaking cow.... the SR fixes are supposed to be a step towards helping defense, right?.... omg... i just tested in the arena against aim + build up and focused accuracy + tactics...
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The latest patch doesn't say that the defense debuff resistance has been added in yet:
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Now Testing in the Training Room - 9/23/05
Powers
F/X for all Sonic Resonance and Sonic Blast buffs and debuffs toned down. Many players complained of discomfort caused by these F/X.
Tasks
Fixed a bug that could cause a Contact to start a player on a Story Arc without giving them a mission.
Stores
The new Damage Resistance Inspirations can now be purchased in stores.
Game
Fixed a bug that caused sound to loop repeatedly and eventually crashed the game client.
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Not to mention that defense debuff resistance won't exactly help against to-hit buffs.
Statesman replied earlier in this thread saying that yes, he does know about that problem and they're thinking of ways to fix it.
Yea....I'm aware of all that.... I added this response to share what's happening from where i saw it regardless. Statesman may not need any players to co sign.... i'm sure he can handle things on his own as fars as responding to it.... my post was for him after all..
but thx,
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From what I've see already nerfs continue to punish people that have toons that are near unkillable by making the powers much less useful.
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Umm that was the point of the nerfs, yes? Nobody should be "near unkillable" but for all the "near unkillables" out there there seems to be an equal number of "rendered useless" heroes running around. Defence sets in PVP are one. Everyone has a magic bullet of some sort that says "Sorry no defence for you! POW!". This resistance to debuffs and the resistance inspirations go in some direction to correct the pvp inbalance and I am glad to see them.
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Ironically, the sets that were hit the hardest were already the least unkillable.
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Do the resistances stack and apply to all debuffs?
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Yes.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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In my saner moments this kind of thing makes me feel good about the direction of the game.
At this exact moment, I am [censored] pissed off about how worthless /SR is in the arena. I entered a 6v6 SHW match and came out with all my defensive "guns" blazing. I toggled up CJ, FF, FS, and Evasion, I clicked PB, and Elude, and Eye of the Magus, and 4 small lucks. You know how long I survived? 10 seconds. Some Ice/Eng just clicked Aim and 2 attacks and I was worthless for the next 5 minutes of a 10 minute match. Hasten was down forever, PB was down forever, Elude was down for 5 bloody minutes, and I'm just a punching bag for the other team. My team would've been better off if I had just quit the match.
I guess I should have used at least 8 lucks on top of my passives, toggles, Elude (a situational power so incredibly strong it needs a 1000 second recharge to be balanced, yet is completey useless against anyone with Aim, Buildup, Focused Accuracy, Tactics, or Targeting Drone), and Eye of the Magus. Then I would have been able to actually play for 60 seconds before getting annihilated and rendered useless for the next 4 minutes.
I still have hope for SR, but I really do not enjoy it as it currently exists.
A few things:
1- Thankyou Statesman and the devs for agreeing to look into the PVP problems with DEF sets. I hope something comes of it, because it was stated in the past that they were getting looked at and then nothing happened. The past is the past, however, and I look forward to seeing what comes of this.
You will also need to look into excessive accuracy, but this is a great first step, and I am very much in favor of taking it one step at a time.
2- To the others complaining about this change: We have been asking for a review since I4 was released, and have been waiting patiently since then (well, ok, I had given up hope). I appreciate that some of your DEF debuffs just got weaker. With all due respect, your DEF debuff power nullifies our *entire set*. So I'm sorry if your debuffs will lose effectiveness against 3 *whole* ATs (SR, Stone, Ice), but when I need to take 6 powers and slot them with 36 enh to get a mere 35-40% DEF, I expect that DEF to stick around. If you need 6 powers and 36 slots to reduce me to 0 DEF, then fine. But using 1 power to nullify an entire secondary is a little excessive.
Nox
This will be a big help, But SR doesnt have enough defence when its at 100% working any more.
MY BLASTER (With epic armour) CAN LAST LONGER IN CLOSE COMBAT THAN MY SR SCRAPPER!
-Legacy40k
Funny how they nerfed defense and resistance but didnt nerf defense or resistance debuffs. Even funnier is how they lowered the to hit buff of pve to a max of 75% but storm can debuff ToHit over 200%. Grrr the problem with enhancable debuffs.....but i guess thats why sonics isnt enhancable! Just something to think about.
Bottom line the pve section of the game is even more underpowered to these debuffs then Heros are in arena. Makes me ask why they are so powerful. A ToHit, Defense, or Resistance debuff(EF) is supposed to DECREASE an opponents ability to Hit, Defend, or Resist. Not ELIMINATE it altogether.
Wish i could enhance my fulcrum shift like you can EF. Reducing a foes damage output to base may keep me alive longer! :P
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As some players have pointed out, Defense builds (Super Reflexes, Ice Armor, Stone Armor to a degree) have an inherent weakness in that there are a plethora of powers that debuff Defense in PvE and PvP.
In order to rectify this situation, we will be adding a Resistance to Defense Debuffs to a number of powers. This Resistance will not be enhanceable, but it will increase over level.
The Resistance % for the powers and Archetypes are as follows. The two numbers represent the Resistance at levels 1 and 50, respectively:
Scrapper
Super Reflexes
Focused Fighting: 4/21.6
Focused Senses: 4/21.6
Agile: 2/10.8
Dodge: 2/10.8
Lucky: 2/10.8
Evasion: 4/21.6
Elude: 10/54
Tanker
Ice Armor
Frozen Armor: 5.2/27.2
Wet Ice: 5.2/27.2
Glacial Armor: 5.3/27.2
Stone Armor
Rock Armor: 5.2/27.2
Rooted: 5.2/27.2
Crystal Armor: 5.2/27.2
Granite Armor: 13/68
The way this works is that the % above represent the amount subtracted from the incoming Defense Debuff. For instance, a level 50 Scrapper with Agile has any incoming Defense Debuff lessened by 10.8%.
Our general philosophy was to make it so that a player could achieve at level 50 high protection against Defense debuffs; a Defense build absolutely depends on the enemy missing his attacks!
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Of course this happens while I'm two thousand miles away from my PC. Although I'm basically happy with the idea (given the fact that I've been begging for it forever) and I'm still mulling over the top-end numbers (assuming I understand how they are supposed to stack) I think there's a problem with the overal implementation.
A 2% resistance is going to mean diddly-squat. At low levels, defense numbers are low, the likelyhood of being hit with a defense debuff is high, but the villains are just as accurate and the debuffs are just as strong.
A 10% defense debuff that gets reduced by a 2% resistance to 9.8% defense debuff is, well, ridiculous. The base 6% resistance you'll have if you have both the passive and the toggle (assuming that they stack only in that way) is not much better.
Lets keep in mind what the problem with defense debuffs really were, and it isn't the lack of resistance to them per se. The problem was that they subtract from defense, which makes them much more powerful than resistance debuffs. That is a mathematically consequence of the fact that Resistance (with the captial R) has inherent resistance to resistance debuffs built in, *and* built in scalable to the actual resistance (higher resistance = higher resistance to debuffs) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the resistance to debuffs that Resistance has cannot itself be debuffed.
*That* is the critical difference betweeen defense and resistance. In effect, because Resistance always "fights" debuffs just as hard, Resistance does not, and cannot, suffer from spiraling collapse.
It is important to realize that Defense (with the capital D) had a form of "resistance to debuffs" as well, something the devs certainly must have been thinking all along: defense "resists" debuffs by avoiding getting hit, thus in effect evading some of the effects of defense debuffs (by not getting hit by the debuffs).
The core problem has always been not that Resistance resists resistance debuffs, while Defense does not, but rather than High Resistance permanently stays high in the face of resistance debuffs, while High Defense can get quickly blown apart, because Defense's "inherent avoidance of debuffs" is itself vulnerable to being debuffed.
Its the "vicious cycle" some have referred to: defense gets hit with a tiny debuff (in numerical terms) but its enough to lower defense enough to make it much more likely to be hit with the next debuff.
And the debuffs are GIGANTIC compared to defense. The low end defense and resistance debuffs are about 10% in the PvE environment (in the PvP environment, this is a completely different can of worms altogether). The numeric value of resistances for sets that rely on resistance is in the 50%-90% range. The numeric value for defenses for SR and Ice are 30-50% - at *high* levels. At low levels, they are trivial: 15%-30%.
The "small-sized" defense debuffs are strong enough to rip away a third to half of a defensive set's defense numbers. That's one third to half on a numeric basis: its essentially *most* of the actual mitigation capability.
(if you have 35% defense facing base 50% tohit minions, you have 70% damage mitigation: a 10% defense debuff reduces you to 25% defense, and 50% mitigation. But you were being hit 15% of the time, now its 25% of the time - a 67% increase in net incoming damage.)
So: defense debuffs (again, speaking strictly about PvE) are higher in magnitude than resistance debuffs (before we even talk about debuff resistances), and resistance gets to "ratchet up" resistance to debuffs simply by upping damage resistance powers.
The question is: how much debuff resistance should SR have? And the answer is: I don't know. Gonna need to think about it carefully, given how the devs decided to implement it. But here's one (alternate) way to look at it:
When I originally suggested adding this sort of thing, one thing I suggested was to make it work much like the way resistance debuffs work. In effect, Resistance has two actual resistance components: Damage Resistance, and (Resistance) Debuff Resistance. The simplest thing (conceptually) to do is to do the same thing for Defense: split Defense into a Damage Avoidance Defense and a Defense Debuff Defense, and simply make Defense Debuff Defense immune to debuffing. Why immune? Because Resistance Debuff Resistance is similarly immune. A resistance power that confers 75% damage resistance might get "debuffed" to 70% in terms of damage resistance, but that same power continues to resists 75% of resistance debuffs.
If an SR scrapper with 35% defense could be debuffed to 30% defense, it should still have 35% defense against actual defense debuffs.
Do that, and defense debuff "resistance" would work similarly to resistance: defense sets could be debuffed and thus hit, but their ability to continue to "avoid" defense debuffs, independent of actual damage/hits, would be preserved - just as it is for Resistance.
If, however, you decide to do it Statesman's way, as a fixed resistance, things get ugly. Even at the piddly 17% defense levels of a low level SR scrapper, that still equates to 34% "pseudo resistance" to defense debuffs - in terms of avoiding them (from minions). But the very first debuff that lands blow the protection clean away. The teeny tiny resistances that the devs are adding do not in any way change that.
The top end - ~30% resistances - does feel like it would balance out the high end somewhat, although defense would still be much more brittle than resistance. I'd have to look at what happens when debuff resistance is lower, but constant, to see if its really as effective as it ought to be.
Statesman: you keep saying Defense is about not getting hit. Consider the above an alternate way to implement "Resistance to Defense Debuffs" that is much more fair to Defense relative to Resistance, and preserves that basic concept. The flat resistance being added doesn't preserve the concept of "Defense is about not getting hit" because with the large reduction in defense numbers, and the still sky-high (relative) values of defense debuffs, I5 Defense is really about "Avoiding defense debuffs in terms of being in a different zone from them, because once they land, you can't avoid them anymore." Resistance is about resisting: they can still resist even after they are hit with resistance debuffs: they can still fight them off. Defense currently has no such inherent capability, and I'm not sure the fixed (and initially miniscule) debuff resistances really do it for SR and Ice.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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If, however, you decide to do it Statesman's way, as a fixed resistance, things get ugly. Even at the piddly 17% defense levels of a low level SR scrapper, that still equates to 34% "pseudo resistance" to defense debuffs - in terms of avoiding them (from minions). But the very first debuff that lands blow the protection clean away. The teeny tiny resistances that the devs are adding do not in any way change that.
The top end - ~30% resistances - does feel like it would balance out the high end somewhat, although defense would still be much more brittle than resistance. I'd have to look at what happens when debuff resistance is lower, but constant, to see if its really as effective as it ought to be.
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The top end isn't 30% resistance to debuffs (and that still badly needs a new name), it's 97.6% resistance. All of these powers stack, and apply their resistance to any incoming debuffs, regardless of source.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposed change, but I think that it misses the primary problem with Defense-based sets (in PvP at least): the overpowering nature of toHit buffs. With a single click, an unslotted Aim, a moderately slotted Build Up, or a heavily slotted Focused Accuracy/Targeting Drone negates an entire Defense-based line, even fully 6-slotted.
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Understood; we're still working on this.
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It seems to me that having Defense work by directly subtracting from an attacker's chance to hit is an inherently unbalanced approach, and that the defensive mechanics could be regularized by breaking Defense out into its own segment of the attack process. Right now, as I understand it, the process works like this:
<ul type="square">[*]The attacker has a base chance to hit; this is modified by the level of the target and any accuracy modifiers from the power being used, inspirations, buffs, and debuffs.[*]If the target has any Defense from powers or inspirations, this directly reduces the attacker's chance to hit. The Defense value may be capped according to the target's AT; if the modified Defense exceeds the cap, the cap value is used instead of the modified Defense.[*]If the resultant chance to hit is lower than 5% or higher than 95%, it is capped to these values.[*]A random number is generated; if it is lower than the attacker's modified hit percentage, then they hit, and damage must be assessed; otherwise, attack resolution stops here.[*]The attacker has a base damage for the attack, modified by level, inspirations, buffs, and debuffs.[*]If the resultant damage exceeds the damage cap for the attack, the damage is capped to that value.[*]If the target has a Resistance to that attack type, the damage is reduced by the Resistance percentage. The Resistance value may be capped according to the target's AT; if the modified Resistance exceeds the cap, the cap value is used instead of the modified Resistance.[*]The remaining damage is applied to the target.[/list]
If the target's Defense is broken out separately, it would change the attack resolution to:
<ul type="square">[*]The attacker has a base chance to hit; this is modified by the level of the target and any accuracy modifiers from the power being used, inspirations, buffs, and debuffs.[*]If the resultant chance to hit is lower than 5% or higher than 95%, it is capped to these values.[*]A random number is generated; if it is lower than the attacker's modified hit percentage, then they hit, and damage must be assessed; otherwise, attack resolution stops here.[*]Determine the target's Defense from powers and inspirations; if this percentage is higher than the AT-specific cap, the cap value is used instead.[*]A random number is generated; if it is lower than the target's modified Defense, the attack misses, and attack resolution stops here; otherwise, continue.[*]The attacker has a base damage for the attack, modified by level, inspirations, buffs, and debuffs.[*]If the resultant damage exceeds the damage cap for the attack, the damage is capped to that value.[*]If the target has a Resistance to that attack type, the damage is reduced by the Resistance percentage. The Resistance value may be capped according to the target's AT; if the modified Resistance exceeds the cap, the cap value is used instead of the modified Resistance.[*]The remaining damage is applied to the target.[/list]
This would have to change the values for Defense powers, since the effect of a given percentage of Defense is to directly make that percentage of attacks miss, rather than decreasing the attacker's chance of making a successful attack. However, it has the advantage that a 75% Defense and a 75% Resistance are, over the long run, equivalent -- either will prevent 3/4 of the incoming potential damage from being taken by a hero, while still keeping the distinction that a Resistance-based hero has to be ground down over many hits, but a Defense-based hero can go down to one or two lucky shots. This long-term equivalence allows Defense and Resistance to be balanced against each other more easily. It also means that Accuracy increases don't wipe out the protection of a Defense-based hero; all Aim, Targeting Drone, and Accuracy inspirations do is make it more likely that the target's Defense will have to be invoked; the Defense value won't change, and will still provide the same percentage of protection.
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I personally like the set as is. Its simple to learn each power has a clear purpose. But still, uber Accuracy and TO Hit buffs will kill us easily. I'd propose that each defensive power adds to your defensive floor. The floor for everyone is a 5% chance of not getting hit. Well, if you have Dodge, your floor vs melee is 10% (iirc the current value of Dodge is 5%). If you also happen to have focused Fighting, your floor is:
5%(normal floor) + 5%(Dodge) + 12%(or whatever the value of of FF is right now) = 22% floor to evade the attack. This would not be enhanceable, and under normal situations, this floor would not be reached. But it you come across someone (PvP or PvE) with uber ACC, your defenses still come through for you even if they are weaker. (Modify these values for balance if they're too strong)
Not a number cruncher, so I'm not sure how much this would help.
One thing surprises me about the responses to this thread.
Even though this change impacts PvE more than PvP, almost nobody has been considering the PvE side. Especially from the debuffer's point of view!
Get your heads out of the arena for a minute.
Arguably, debuffers (in general) have always suffered the exact same problem as defense based heroes. Poor scaling against high cons, cascading defense (or acc debuff) failure, etc.
But now, if it's a new design goal for all hero and enemy +def powers to also grant near-immunity to -def debuffs, there's no longer a point, in the PvE game, to having a -def debuff. In PvP, Defenders' -def is unresistable, but that doesn't apply to the world outside the arena, nor does it help Controllers at all.
So, the big question: will CoH enemies resist -def? If so, what happens when my Defenders with -def "bubble popper" powers suddenly find out they're only worth using in the Arena? I don't even like PvP! Worse, what happens when my Controllers with -defs find out they're not worth using at all?
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So, the big question: will CoH enemies resist -def? If so, what happens when my Defenders with -def "bubble popper" powers suddenly find out they're only worth using in the Arena? I don't even like PvP! Worse, what happens when my Controllers with -defs find out they're not worth using at all?
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It's doubtful that this will immediately apply to villains. Changes to powers don't seem to automatically update on the villain side; note that Nemesis lieutenants still use the old version of Vengeance.
Even if they do, keep in mind that this would currently only apply to villains with Ice, Stone, or SR powers, not ones that use bubbles and such.
Finally, keep in mind that, unless I missed something, -defense (and -accuracy) debuffs were not recently disempowered the way that +defense powers were. They are thus now more powerful, compared to abilities that they run counter to, than they were before I5.
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If the target's Defense is broken out separately, it would change the attack resolution to:
The attacker has a base chance to hit; this is modified by the level of the target and any accuracy modifiers from the power being used, inspirations, buffs, and debuffs.
If the resultant chance to hit is lower than 5% or higher than 95%, it is capped to these values.
A random number is generated; if it is lower than the attacker's modified hit percentage, then they hit, and damage must be assessed; otherwise, attack resolution stops here.
Determine the target's Defense from powers and inspirations; if this percentage is higher than the AT-specific cap, the cap value is used instead.
A random number is generated; if it is lower than the target's modified Defense, the attack misses, and attack resolution stops here; otherwise, continue.
The attacker has a base damage for the attack, modified by level, inspirations, buffs, and debuffs.
If the resultant damage exceeds the damage cap for the attack, the damage is capped to that value.
If the target has a Resistance to that attack type, the damage is reduced by the Resistance percentage. The Resistance value may be capped according to the target's AT; if the modified Resistance exceeds the cap, the cap value is used instead of the modified Resistance.
The remaining damage is applied to the target.
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You don't really need to roll twice: this is functionally equivalent to making defense work this way:
net tohit = base tohit * (1 + tohit buffs) * (1 - defense)
However, you have to be careful about dealing with things like debuffs, and especially the tohit floors and ceilings.
The basic idea was hashed out in two threads, one of which is lost to the ages, but the second of which is here. Take a look, see if that is more or less what you were thinking (it doesn't specifically deal with resistance, but that is a trivial addition).
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after seeing this post, i got to thinking, if u can have resistance against defense debuffs on these defensive sets, why not put a cap on incoming accuracy/minimum defense on these powers also to prevent things like aim from piercing our defenses completely
example:
Tanker
Ice Armor
Frozen Armor: 15%
Wet Ice: 15%
Glacial Armor: 15%
so that any incoming attack with these 3 toggles will equal a maximum chance to hit at 55% or that our minimum def is 45%
i havent really thought of wut numbers would be overpowered yet, just throwing out this suggestion