I am all for this change, My SR scrapper only runs the toggles, so I won't be reaching the DeBuff resist cap, but I will enjoy the resistance i do get. I'm in my mid 30's now and am now experiencing more and more earth thorn casters in my CoT missions, let me say that stacking Quicksands have led to my demise too many times for me to count.
I understand the controllers' complaints about this change, because unlike Defenders their Debuffs are not unresistable. My suggestion would be to make a small portion of controller debuffs unresistable, that way the SR scrappers and Ice tanks can still be protected from most of the debuff, but the Controllers don't feel as if they have been neutered either. it would keep both camps at least marginally happy.
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defense owns accuracy enhancements no matter how many of them you have.
[/ QUOTE ] It's a little more complicated. Defense gets a chance to cap before accuracy enhancements. But if the best defense can do is reduce you to a 50% chance to hit, then each one of your acc's is working on 50%.
Six slotted toggles reduce melee to just under 50% and with a toggle, that's about 45% left for your acc enhancements to work on. Six slotting passives is just not worth it. The pay off is too small compared to other things you could slot e.g. Health, Aid Self, Parry/DA, etc.
Back in I4, scrappers could push 71% with toggles/passives/Hasten..not including CJ, Stealth, or Elude. That left your acc's operating on 5% and six Hami's wasn't going to make any diff acting on 5%. Of course Aim cut right through that, but so what, /SR's shouldn't be unhittable against Aim, imo.
Whether aim should be up 7 seconds out of every 21 is a different question.
I agree with your general concern that it will seem tough to strike a balance wiht To HiT. To Hits are needed by players to deal with all the debuffs of defenders/controllers, and I also think every Defensive set should be vulnerable to Aim. Tactics and FA are different matters as they are toggles and everyone can get Tactics. It'd be one thing if we could all get a toggle to make our damage 50% unresistable or stop or put 50% healing debuffs on our attacks, but we can't. So /regen and /Inv get off scott-free when it comes to power pool and APP powers available to stop them.
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However now that you gutted Invuln's non-S/L resistances
[/ QUOTE ] I've been thinking about this...and it occurs to me that perhaps one of the reasons Inv was so powerful was because it such high non-s/l resistance. Yes, I now you're on about Invinc and its evils, but gutting the non-s/l makes Inv a lot more balanced, imo, at least as far as scrappers go. Now, we start see places/mob types where Inv doesn't continue to totally dominate in the scrapper world. Its seems the they devs have decided that Invulnerability is now going to be great at S/L, but to be truly inv to everthing required some significant sacrifice and questionable value.
I'm not passing judgement as to the fun factor on this change, but from the fence, it seems to make sense conceptually. I never say the DM/Inv in my SG pause for anything...and that was with unslotted Invinc. Now we'll see if he pays a little more attention to CoT and BP.
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I wouldn't mind this as much if wasn't for the fact that it gets better if you grab a bunch of 'helper monkies' over just normal battles. Being safer vs 2 bosses+10 minions over just 2 bosses is a major flaw in this current installment of Invuln.
Also, depsite the fact that I would rather have an iron spike driven through my heart than PvP, Invinc is not good in PvP at all. I sincerely doubt other players are going to be like mobs and swarm you like the AI does. And if you don't have a lot of foes in melee range, Invinc is garbage, but if you do, it's huge. Thusly making the non-S/L resists pathetic in PvP. But yet, S/L damage is almost unchanged. This is a strange situation we have here at this time.
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Any chance of Regen getting something like this (resistance to -regen)?
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ARRRR!!!!! You made me laugh so hard I stuck meself in the leg with me hook again! Yarr, second time this week.
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I wouldn't mind this as much if wasn't for
[/ QUOTE ] Despite having a lvl 23 or so Inv/stone tanker, i'm not going to make assessments on Invinc for tankers at this point. I will say that for the DM/inv i teamed with, it seemed the +Acc was much more important in his fighting ++ mobs than the +DEF.
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Thusly making the non-S/L resists pathetic in PvP. But yet, S/L damage is almost unchanged.
[/ QUOTE ] But that's the whole point, balance Inv by gutting its non-s/l and forcing Inv's who want to be comprehensively inv to really sacrifice for it.
You don't play much PvP...well, I have fought that same lvl DM/Inv with my DM/SR...quite a few times. In I4, I could not kill him at all without detoggling. And even detoggling, it would take me 10 minutes and lucky crits with me Fearing him and brawling. He had capped S/L with 10 slots, and about 50% Neg resist. He couldn't kill me, and I couldn't kill him.
In I5, our battles come down to whoever gets the last punch. This is an order of magnitude of improvement, imo. He can easily kill me with without detoggling me, and I can kill him without detoggling him, though its a lot easier if I do. But I'm doing about 60/40 Negative. If I was Claws/SR or MA/SR, he'd be resisting ally my attacks at 70%+ and I wouldn't be getting any extra debuff from DM. I can only imagine a Claws/SR would get owned, but I could be wrong.
I'm not saying that Inv is properly balanced, but I am saying that it seems more appropriate that Inv is centered around S/L and everything else comes at a very high price. This way the game can balance for /Inv by just creating more non s/l damage without having to give everyone Psi attacks or create a bunch of -res type of debuffs...which really don't debuff resistance to begin with.
I also fought a lvl 50 Inv/SS, who claimed he was 26-0, both of us exemped to 37, with my lvl 39, and I was able to play him competitvely. He was probably beating me 3-2 or 5-3 in a 10 domination match. And let me tell you, Perma Rage flat owned me. My only recourse was to fear him after he'd KO me and then brawl and Siphon Life until I saw TI drop and then go for broke. No way in the world I could have beaten him without detoggling. He could easily flatten me without detoggling.
EDIT:
I'm actually surprised they didn't unperma Dull Pain. I've fought /Inv not using DP and my not using Fear and they went down pretty fast. DP was also why I could not ultimately kill that DM/Inv in I4.
Very nice indeed. Thanks for giving some love to the SR's and Ice Tankers. Just some alterations on ToHit problems, which appearantly Statesman is looking into, and the SR will be much more in line with the other scrapper sets.
This also goes to show that it's false to say "Why didn't the devs just boost the weakest sets instead of nerfing everyone for balance?" As a way of saying no one would gripe and complain in that case (which I had agreed with until now). I can't get over all these statements complaining about how this is going to affect their debuffing toons in PvP (Note: I have both an SR scrapper and a rad defender). This change was desperately needed for PvE more than PvP in which the problem revolves around ToHit moreso than debuffs. Debuffs kill SR's and Ice tankers in PvE and much more so than the defense debuffs hurt other sets (just see any of the analysis by Arcanaville).
Anyway, thanks so much for this addition to the defensive sets. It is much appreciated.
Is the increase linear by level, or does it jump at certain levels?
It looks good, per-se, for level fifties.. but if we don't get that until then [ i.e., it sucks until say level 40 ], then it still won't be much use.
Care fo clarify, or would that be yeilding too much into specifics?
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Well, I wasn't justifying it as much as I was explaining it. I think you're downplaying things a bit--Hoarfrost is a huge increase in survivability--but barring Elude's temporary boost, Ice should probably equal, if not exceed SR here.
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Huge is an exaggeration. Ice does about as well as SR when you figure Elude into things.
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Any chance of Regen getting something like this (resistance to -regen)?
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And what exactly is -regen? Like, getting damaged? You want resistance to damage? I think we have that already. :P Yarr.
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Well, I wasn't justifying it as much as I was explaining it. I think you're downplaying things a bit--Hoarfrost is a huge increase in survivability--but barring Elude's temporary boost, Ice should probably equal, if not exceed SR here.
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Huge is an exaggeration. Ice does about as well as SR when you figure Elude into things.
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Mmm, granted, I haven't played both, but given that Hoarfrost doesn't have a crash and can be made perma, I would think that Ice does notably better than SR--which is as it should be. I really don't think they're even, but compared to each other, rather than the game as a whole, they seem fine.
Arrr, not really. there was a big flamey thread about this on the tanker board not one month ago. once that blasted elude is factored in, all bets are off. Otherwise, ice is ahead like it should.
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Very well. Take away Controllers' ability to lower Tanker and Scrapper defense in PvP. Keep in mind that Defenders will still be able to make your armour useless, causing you to run out of purples 5 minutes into a match. Also, keep in mind that many defenders can boost their acc.
What are controlers left with? We can't mez you, we can't hit you. We don't do much damage in the rare event that we do hit you.
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SR = 1 of 4 secondaries for scrappers. My best estimates would put it at 3rd most common next to /Regen and /Inv, and post I5, /DA might even be a larger percentage of post I5 created scrappers.
Ice = 1 of 4 primaries for Tankers. I would estimate its easily dead last in popularity. Stone is definitly 3rd.
You're complaining because 1 very uncommon and 2 fairly uncommon secondaries get the ability to resist your debuffs, whereas NO ONE ELSE can do so?
Gee, how many heroes in the SHW division are resistant to my lethal and/or smashing damage, which are my only forms of attack?
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SIMPLE QUESTION: Does this apply to dark miasma's To hit debuffing powers?
Because honestly in the Level 50 game dark miasma's ability of To-hit debuff simply doesn't work...
Conduct a brawl with a scrapper with Focused accuracy.. Or even a defender with a six slotted tactics..
You will see hit rates of 90% even while under every to hit debuff the set can muster.....
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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SIMPLE QUESTION: Does this apply to dark miasma's To hit debuffing powers?
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No.
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Talk about missing the mark with the best intentions.
In all honesty, it's come to the point where I've given up hope of getting super reflexes through my set's defense buffs in the arena, and am hoping for SR to be given other smaller and more unique buffs to justify the lack of defense its secondary provides. Something along the lines of:
Lucky -> +5% crit chance
Evasion -> protection from Fear
Quickness -> near immunity to -spd
Elude -> resistance to repel
Perhaps making SR the toughest class to pin down would be easier in making the class live up to its name. It would certainly not unbalance the set in PvE, a danger inherent in attempting to tweak ToHits and Defenses for PvP.
PenanceжTriage
Bakka don't roll me into a group with ALL SR's I have Elude 6 slotted with membranes. That makes A HUGE diffirence to how much defense I have. I also have build up 6 slotted with membranes and Focused Accuracy 6 slotted with tohitt(two cyto's for end redux). I don't need this buff at all, however every other SR Scrapper and ICE tanker who wasn't around farming Hami before HO's got nerfed DOES.
So don't freat little Bakka, you can still beat the other SR's and ice Tanks up (except a few).
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Well, I wasn't justifying it as much as I was explaining it. I think you're downplaying things a bit--Hoarfrost is a huge increase in survivability--but barring Elude's temporary boost, Ice should probably equal, if not exceed SR here.
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Huge is an exaggeration. Ice does about as well as SR when you figure Elude into things.
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Mmm, granted, I haven't played both, but given that Hoarfrost doesn't have a crash and can be made perma, I would think that Ice does notably better than SR--which is as it should be. I really don't think they're even, but compared to each other, rather than the game as a whole, they seem fine.
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Ice Armor does about as well as SR. Ice Tankers have increased survivability because of increased hit points, but you could take Ice in its current form and make it a scrapper set without unbalancing the scrappers who take it.
It's true that Elude has a crash, but you never have to fight when Elude is down, either, and given that an SR could tank pretty much any AV in the game without an autohit power while running Elude... It doesn't matter hit points you have or don't have if you're not getting hit.
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You're complaining because 1 very uncommon and 2 fairly uncommon secondaries get the ability to resist your debuffs, whereas NO ONE ELSE can do so?
Gee, how many heroes in the SHW division are resistant to my lethal and/or smashing damage, which are my only forms of attack?
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Even more, he's complaining without knowing whether or not they actually can resist his debuff. One of his debuffs, out of like six different traits that he can debuff.
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Excellent. Glad to see you are addressing this, and I look forward to seeing you address the to-hit buffs.
However, please consider making all +Def powers give this resistance. You have neglected Invulnerability, which is now primarily focused on +Def from 2 powers (Invincibility mostly, and Tough Hide), as well as the Force Field set(!), Fortitude, Steamy Mist, Group Invisibility, Superior Invisibility, Cloak of Shadows, and Shadow Fall.
Edit: And as the poster below me points out, what about powers and powersets that rely on Acc debuffs for defense? All the -def and +Acc in the game hurts them just as much. Radiation, Dark Miasma, Dark Armor (there is still a debuff on CoF right?), and Storm need to be dealt with too. Balance is the goal, right? So don't leave anyone out that is adversely affected by the incredible abundancy of -Def and +Acc in the game.
The mixed sets won't get as much resistance, but they won't have all their +Def cancelled by one quicksand either, this way.
It's not like you are only giving it to purely +Def sets, I see Granite Armor in there.
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Acc Debuff is a form of defense too!
Hoping that isn't missed in all these posts.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
why don't they just make it so this thing only applys sometimes.
like for the first 20 secs of a toggle de-buff
or it has to "hit" to work with an ACC based on the power.
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Formerly known as YFNDBA
I think it would be better if the just to combine Damage Resistance into the Defense Insperation, rather than have 2 different classes of insperations. Either that, or open up more space for insperations.
I still strongly think that the non-linear benifit of percentage based damage resistance needs to be addressed first.
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LOL . I knew it 
I knew someone was to ask to nerf Focus Accuracy .
You know what , in the end , if someone challenge you for the arena and you see that he has powers that might invalidate your defense , it may be wise to decline the challenge By concept this game let players select their powers and its VERY likely that in the world someday youll get your rear badly beaten by someone who isnt better than you but happens to have exactly the right powers to take you out .
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That's most builds. Maybe one of 4 To-hit buffs, or 50 defense debuffs. Almost every scrapper has focused accuracy. Most blasters have aim and build up. Invuln tanks have Invince. Controllers and defenders have def debuffs.
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What can you do about it ? No AT can defend against everything ya know ...
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Typo there. Let me edit that for you.
"Your AT can't defend against anything ya know ..."
There we go. All better.
I'd just like to know, what builds CAN SR beat? Squishies, if it's a BS with Headsplitter or a DM scrapper that abuses fear?
I play MA, and since that's about the ONLY primary that doesn't synergize with SR, yet is the most conceptually common pairing with SR, I'm pretty much done in the rear if I want to challenge my friend's mastermind when CoV and CoH link up. Or let's say I want to go with my super group into the arena? Nope. Better level up a different character, because mine's worthless.
Yeah. Good idea.
I guess I just can't understand why all of these people are complaining about the historically weakest damage mitigation sets getting something that might help them in certain situations. Sorry we don't want to be gimp. Our bad.
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Ice tanks do have better defenses, all told. Hoarfrost alone makes a huge difference in survivability. SR has greater resistance to defense debuffs in total because SR *only* has defense. If you look, you'll see that they added debuff resistance to all the defense powers of defensive sets. The reason that SR looks like it has better numbers is that it doesn't have the damage resistance or the slow debuff of Ice Armor.
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Ice only has resists to cold, fire, and toxic damage - which it has no defense against.
Hoarfrost doesn't make such a huge difference that Ice should have less resistance to defense debuffs.
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Well, I wasn't justifying it as much as I was explaining it. I think you're downplaying things a bit--Hoarfrost is a huge increase in survivability--but barring Elude's temporary boost, Ice should probably equal, if not exceed SR here.