Kampfer

Invul wasn't a Defense set infact the power description even proves you wrong. The thing is Invul has been turned into a Defense set now and thats what a lot of old Invul players don't like.

Invul vs the Other sets was always supposed to boast Utility.

Fire: Best Damage and good Resist.

Stone good Defense, Huge Resists, and Regeneration.

Ice: Res to Cold and slows, Defense and thats one of the reason it sucks.


Invul: Scalable Defense (<---Overpowered?) and Great Resists.

Now officially Invul is a defense set that can only boast its herding ability. How funny that the bulk of the Invul players have always wanted Invincibility Nerfed and keep thier Title as a Res set.

Wow where do you start on the list of Blaster grievances?

I will start with issues like Inferno and Nova which I don't think is mentioned but should be. These 9th Tier nukes can result in the deaths of many of blasters because whatever survives ussually just turns around and Nukes the blaster. I would think whatever would be attacked by a Nuke of such strength would be stunned and such. A blaster should not die after they pop thier 9th Tier nuke on a mob.

Damage and range for blasters is much to be desired. One grievence I think blasters should be listing a lot is the Fact that almost every mob in this game outranges them. The Blasters whole specialty is ranged combat but he is outranged by things that can kill him in Melee..gg.

Another problem is aggro and how they generate SO MUCH HATE. Its a shame really because in large Teams the blaster requires a bodyguard.


Blasters need a Buff in Range, Accuracy, and Defense (not resistance). Thier attacks need too cause Less hate but really Blaster like it or not should be Glass cannons. They have Lots of damage but are pretty fragile. The main problem is they don't have the DPS to save thier [censored].

As for those saying to debuff the damage that Tanks and Scrappers do. You weaken your arguement because it sounds more like your jealous then actaully trying to help your class. Wow nerf Tank damage when only Fire Melee and Energy Melee can actaully do extreme amounts of Damage with two of thier abilities. Battle Axe, Super Strength, Ice Melee, War Mace, and Stone Melee do nothing.

RIght Now I am fighting a lvl 52 Mob. My attack chain is Jab, Air Superiority (Punch blows) , Haymaker (slotted the same as A.S), KO Blow, and Foot Stomp. In that entire line i just did 977 damage and thats with Rage on....

KO blow Six slotted with 3 Hami Damage/Acc and 3 lvl 53 Damage SOs

Haymake 5 slotted 4 Damage 1 end redux

A.S same as Haymaker

Foot Stomp same as Haymaker

Jab 1 slotted damage SO

all are 50++.

Note KO blow and Foot Stomp have a long recharge time SO after the intial burst my OVERALL DPS is drop by well over 60%.

The Blaster with me which is a good friend just did 2000 without her Inferno.... GG I need a nerf.

Thank you chick that is exactly what i was trying to elude to. Take Energy Melee vs SS and its no contest. Even with perma Haste SS is dreadfully slow versus Stone Melee, Energy Melee, and Battle Axe. I know that a fellow Stone melee/Invul tank i was pared with was doing attacks in 150/230s in his base attacks and the highest attack he was doing 380 with an overall line of damage 1000 damage. Now my SS tank hits averages of 210 when rage is popped EXCEPT with FS which does around 170 (this is all to lvl 52 Hydramen) and KO blow does 460 damage which equals out a line of 1050. Problem is after my one line I then have to use Haymaker and Punch almost exclusively while Ko recharges while the same stone tank has gone through his second line. SS has a great openning but a dreadfully slow pace and to make matters worse the attacks are END hoggy. Running All three of my Armors and an End redux in all of my attacks save KO blow I can blow through my end superfast. Atleast with SS/INVul i have yet to see a build that does not have Six slotted Conserve Power because a Six Slotted Stamina is not enough. I would really be interest to know how many tanks are forced to carry an Absurd ammount of Cabs (maybe if TBS were buyable it would be a diffirent story).

Thats funny....Regen pretty much undermines the Scrapper Primaries and Makes a scrapper a tank......

SS has horrible DPS , horrible End cost, and even with Rage I find the Damage lack luster. How about this drop the end drain on and the no taunt on Rage and fix SS because it drains way too much end.

I have had it with these Devs....How many times does the Tank community have to go into an Uproar over the changes.


I do not mind penalties on certain powers but i am getting quite annoyed that as a Tank we continue to get the proverbial Shaft. I find it funny that the Devs and Statesmens always use Tanks as refrences to an Imbalance.

Hey Devs why don't you actaully test tanks and listen to us. Most teams in the 40s-50s do not need tanks because a Regen/SR Scrapper can fit the needs. I find it embarrassing that tanks are said to be very good solo characters yet we can only stalemate AVs because of our damage yet Scrappers can and do boast often that they can and will beat them in one on one.

Oh and Statesmen I remember how you said you dd not want Scrappers to Tank......Well you guys have failed horribly because I had a lvl 46 SR scrapper herd the entire Map of lvl 49 Werewolves.

We tanks cannot have high Damage FINE we never asked to be the heavy hitters which we AREN'T. I think the devs have never taken in to consideration that when we tanks fight we are running our Toggles and with high end costs we pretty much have a very Limited Offense. And I completely Dwimble as I noticed something on Sat when I was fighting 4 rikti Chief Soldiers. I noticed that when I was popping enrages i had hit the Damage Cap on KO Blow (2 enrages equal Damage Cap). The funny thing was my view on Rage changed because of that. Whats the use of a power that will not benifit me at ALL and again limit me?


The Devs either have a very annoying sense of humor or they think they put something over us. Either way I find the concerns of Rage as moot. Why should we bicker over its affects when we should just complain to the Devs that then need to fix our Power Sets instead of conning us.

Eitherway I will be filing a Customer Complaint.

which rage? Rage "1.0" and Rage "2.0" both sucked and Rage "3.0" is a blessing. Sorry, but the only annoyance of the new rage is we cannot use Taunt. We tanks can survive almost anything beyond the 10-15 seconds....so what is the complaint? If it was a damage debuff then it would mean nothing because we would not hold aggro through a weak punchvoke. If we are actaully talking about serving our team....Comeon now a well made team would not care if the Tank sat and read a newspaper while they fought as long as he held Aggro.

So what is the arguement truthfully about? I say aslong as I can taunt its a welcomed addition.

Allright now i have to disagree with many of you tankers. I do not mind losing the ability to attack, losing some Defense, and losing 15 endurance points. Thats fine by me because it does not drop my toggles. I do agree it should not affect Taunt but lets not go to the well of Powergaming as its annoying. As one player said Penalties are not supposed to be countered and I am sorry they aren't. This is not a survivability issue because if your tank cannot surive 15 seconds of assault without taking an offensive action....well quite frankly your tank sucks (exception malta sappers.).

The only thing i can see that would make it a risky adventure is the inability to taunt. Taunt should not be affected but other then that I have no problem with Rage 3.0. Then again I use Unstoppable which many tanks claim is useless because it cannot be perma......

Just allow Taunt and Rage is perfect and if you disagree well....we all know now what the true issue is.

Rage is definately not a power that is going to be perma but then again does it need too? I know that i can survive without using it for every mob. Now, SS tanks we should start complaining about something very much needed....SS in general. Our Attacks cost A LOT for such meager damage. Energy melee does a lot more damage for a lot less End.

I honestly think the Devs have no idea what they want with rage. They want a penalty that isn't harsh yet isn't too soft. I can honestly say that SS is weak because at Lvl 39 My tank was doing Less damage in all of his attacks save one compared to a lvl 37 Battle Axe tank. I think its something to point out that a Battle Axe Tank is doing a little more damage then an SS tank 2 lvls above her.

SS is a dead horse and its amazing with all of the complaints that the devs thought an end burn would be an wise penalty change? I think whats amazing is SS players are willing to play a set that is far weaker then the other aslong as they have a power that can EVEN them out with the other sets.

Wow....I feel like i got my teeth kicked in! The minute that patch was introed and I saw the new Rage I petitioned that flop. Now that this has happened I can call this issue dead as Zombie. I am not going to go through the headache of tossing out idea if our imput means nothing. This was not handled in a professional manner and if they felt it was too harsh they should have not added it into the patch. They need o test the proposed changes before they make patch with said changes.

Using a design example you do not build a car and then test the features three days before you are going to sell it. I will be lvl 50 by the time they make Rage right....how unfortante.

I admit defeat (rare occasion) the devs can do what they like, it seems only thier input counts.

To jazonz

I see what you are saying I would reply more indepth but i am kinda winded since i got my new job (I wanna play CoH not spend the rest of the day making an Adequete post). I will be better and more descriptive on the weekends.

I think I am lucky I never built my tank to revolve around Invincibilty or Unstoppable which yes i do have different ideas. The main issues I have with Unstop is its supposed to be the penultimate power yet you have groups like Malta that can Stun you out of Unstoppable. We tanks stay quiet way too ofter because for most ATs damage is Damage. The big problem is the higher lvl you get the more prevelent Psionics becomes. The truth is Invul Tanks are still good after I3 but I do not think Psionics should be so Prevelant. I think some of the High Lvl Villian groups need to be retooled and I do not mind if say for example a Stone Tank is better for fighting against a certain Villian Group while an Invul is better against another.

For Rage I think its penalty needs to be reduced but I do not think it it should lose its bonus to accuracy and damage. Rage should stay the same in its gains but drop the stun penalty. I will state i do not mind losing Perma status for Rage. It should not be that big of a deal that when rage drops you might have to wait an addition 8-10 seconds to pop it again. Perma status can be cheese in all honesty and I think many players should look to Viable solutions other then heavily rely on Perma powers. I do not rely on Perma Powers infact I think Dull Pain Sucks a Perma power and I preferred slotting it with Health Enhancers(I healed so fast with 6 health enhancers that I was not noticing damage).

I actaully thought about how Rage could actaully take Hitpoints away from us as penalty aka Energy Transfer but a little more stiff.

We tanks sit back and let the Dev "nerf" us and all we say is "This underated and Useless power is okay it does not need change" . For example we won a major victory with Invincibility (Invince need to be toned down) as we complained about the I3 change and now we are getting a better revamped Invincibilty. I think we should complain more about how SS should have lessened End Cost and how powers like Hurl should be changed as Hurl is useless aswell (maybe Increased Base Range and Damage?). SS needs a lot of changes and we need to stop being quite and tell the devs we want a balanced SS.

As for the idea of no Change....There will be new Issues that will change us anyway. Like it or not I3 was good in many ways as it gave us combined Toggles and a better Unyielding (A tank could always get stunned out of Invincible and Unyielding Stance Sucked). I will gladly pay the price of having to manage my Endurance if my Health is not a concern.

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I disagree with this opinion. I'm not saying this poster is wrong however, it is so matter of fact I felt obligated to present my counter to it. Rage has drawbacks, that in certain situations is harsh, but if proper tactics are used like defender with something to keep you lucid or unyielding, and/or keeping your passive protection high as a fail-safe, it not only adds depth to the character's character, it is a nice boost in damage and accuracy. It can be complimentary or a staple power. I am of the opinion that the duration and quick recharge actually makes this power better than Build Up. (having only had experience with Buld Up on my Energy blaster).

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Thanks, for the chance to truely debate this. Rage in and of itself does not have a true use other then pwning (this term is acceptable?) weak minions and Lts. Do you really need the Extra damage when noone is hurting you? Does the benifits equal out over the risks? One of the points to make is why should Rage be a power thats only useable with Unyielding or better yet why should Rage be a power that has Severe Drawbacks again most of the High lvl Villian groups. The point is Rage is supposed to up the Chances for the Tanks victory while providing an post-rage Penalty that evens out the bonus that Rage gave. It however provides a two minute Accuracy/Damage buff that is followed by 15 seconds of stun or Potential Stun for what? I can easily beat Plus 5lvl opponets without Rage but with Rage I would reduce my chances of victory by a severe margin so whats the point of the power? When does a tank ever have to Pop rage? Why haven't any of the Rage supporters answered this question?

Why should the Defender on my team have to devote himself to covering the Rage tank because the Rage tank wants to be selfish and outdo the Scrappers? That weakens the team when the defender has to devote his attention to ONE CHARACTER because that said Tank wants to use Rage. Even with Rage the Rage Tank is not going to add anymore true benifit but the Scrappers and Blasters WILL clear the Zone far faster then the Rage Tank with Rage on. So it adds nothing to the Team Aspect.

The tanks Job first and foremost is to protect the Team and that means we should only need to worry about Heals, so we can let the Defender and the Controllers give assistance to the "squishies". A tank who is going to gamble so he can do a little bit more damage and be a little more accurate at the risk of himself and his team is being selfish. If the Rage Tank wants to be a Scranker they can go get Regen Scrapper as they can tank and do Damage!

The entire point that this 7th Tier power needs either Inspirations, Character buffs, or a simple "do not use on Tough Opponents" to be "affective" shows this power needs tweaking. Why Should an SS tank Suffer potential or guarented toggle drops for gains that aren't going to add a true advantage? Take a look at a Fire Blaster with Inferno for example. The Blaster has a nice trade off because a tank can Aggro an entire mob so the Blaster can run in and nuke the group without any risk. Its a Total end blow with no Status affects but all who were hit are dead or near dead. Even with the Risk for Inferno(example power) its net gain is far more important. Rage does not even provide ONE TENTH of that Performance yet you suffer consquences that can or will result in Toggle drop and potential Death. Toggle Drops while fighting a mob is never good.

By the way my RPD is Six slotted, Resist Energy ( I fight Rikti a lot again) is Five Slotted, and Resist Element 2 slotted (Thats my next project). I devote a lot to my Primary but I have not forgotten my secondaries.


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I don't want to sit here and try to push this or sell it on anyone, but if some like it and some don't, that is the point. It's an option, a choice. You don't have to take all your Primary and Secondary powers. We have other pools to look at if we want something safer for accuracy and damage boosts.

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Yes we do and currently Haste is a far superior power that leads the question why do we need Rage? Yes Rage is a choice and currently a horrible choice.

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I'm just asking to please leave that choice available and don't change Rage.

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Why? Its already broken why does it need to stay broken? As it stands the Devs will think the current rage is either A.) a power with a penalty that can be mitagted by Hardcore players trying to make it work or B.) needs fixing and badly so to be more appealing and appropriet 7th tier power.

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Now as an Invul tank (who happens to have SS as a seconary).. I'm beggin' ya'... I'm looking for pity here. Just let this one go. I really hope this poster is wrong and that this isn't definite 'gonna change no matter what' situation. Seriously, I can't justify spending hours tweeking my build again. All my accuracy and damage will be reworked on all powers ... again. Just like what i had to do to scrape together soem endurance post perma-unstop. I didn't mind doing it once, but again???

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Rage needs to be changed and why are you so afraid of the changes when we have a say? If it can be made better is it not worth it? By the way I am not trying to be rude and i do not want to give you the impression i am trying to discredit you or anything. This is an online RPG and with that you should get used totweaking and retweaking characters. Its NORMAL (unfortantly) and its a part of the game and if you do not like it do not play RPGs as its worse in the Paper and Pencil format.

Rage as it is now is an Extreme use power? It is useless against DE because of thier high Res to smashing, its pointless against Freakshow because they can Rez themselves, Malta has so many stuns that i do not think anyone would consider it, Council has slows so thier went you ability to fight, Rikti have psionics, SO where is the Extreme use?

The point is if a tank is in a bad situation Greater Damage is not going to be the answer. Superstrength Strength DPS is so low that if they faced an opponent whom Could actaully go through thier HP fairly easily that popping rage would just be an object lesson in kissing the ground. In dire situations Greater Res is the answer. Isn't this the Entire reason why people are angry about Unstoppable? The fact that if something can force them to pop unstoppable the greater Res and End increase is negated because said opponents will probably outlive the duration time of Unstoppable? In that Case Rage is far more worthless in extreme situations (for which it is supposedly for?) and only serves to make the the situation even more dangerous.

I have yet to find a situation that has made me need greater damage output to save myself.

The funny part about Rage as it is live and as it is on Test is gets more and more useless as the Lvl difficulti is increased. People see Rage as a risk on Hard Boiled missions however as the lvl is increased use of Rage becomes so perilious that only a fool would use it. On invincible settings most opponents will outlast Rage and almost every attack a boss lvl character makes will Stun and unless you pop rage when the Boss has 300hp left (which is a waste) it will always end in your defeat. SO no as is Rage is one of the most useless powers of the SS set due to itself destructive nature.

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[*]Other Penalties: Freezing attacks for a short interval, A Post-Rage accuracy and/or damage penalty period, A larger defense loss, and other viable options exist.[/LIST]
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This gets my vote.

I think as tanks we need a temporary damage boost everyonce an while that does not end in our immediate destruction. Its counter productive to begin with and its an unneccesary risk while teaming. SS is already the lack luster power to begin with. I will say I do not want build up. Many of the other powers have more attacks then SS does or just does more damage. Hurl is worthless, HandClap is useful in teams,rarely stuns and is truely useful to save a teammate or get a boss away from ya, Punch....., Jab is worthless, Haymaker is nice, KO is nice, and Foot Stomp is an AOE so we all like that, but Rage is a Divided issue.

Either it stays the same with a small minority using it or its an Ignored power that is totally thrown away.

I really prefer to see Rage actaully be a power that is recommendable. It has the potential to be a great Roleplaying tool while at the same time being a great Metagame component. I would gladly pay the price of Doing really good Damage for 2 minutes followed by wimpy man slaps for 15 to twenty seconds. Also make Rage have a longer recharge time so a player can not perma-rage. Rage should be the Ace up the sleaves and my point is if its going to be an offensive power then it should affect our offense in both a positive and negative way.

I am sorry I do not agree that the Current Rage is ever worth the risk of being stunned. Is it an exploite running Unyielding with Rage? Is an 80% to damage (it sounds high but its not) and 25% accuracy worth 15 seconds of Stun when you can only use it again Mobs that do not have Stunning capability? Who even uses the power without Unyielding/Mez Protection Toggle on? NOONE! Rage is nothing more then Three Enrages and an Insight with a heavy penalty.

You could buy three enrages and one insight and you have a better risk free power then the Situational use power of Rage. Rage's benifits is outwieghed by its cost and if the End Crash becomes the prefered power it will literally become the most useless power for SS tanks. Rage needs a better penalty then Stun or an Endurance crash as its is nowhere near that destructive.

Currently, Rage limits the tank more then i helps it. I see where statesman was going as currently Rage is "worthwhile" if you have an Armor/Toggle that has Mez protection. Without say Unyielding Rage goes from 15% usefulness to complete and total uselessness as it is gaurenteed Toggle Drop. A good question is does Rage need a penalty that can cause Toggle Drop? Invul tanks use Uy to escape the immediate affect of the Rage crash while suffering a 15second period of complete and total vulnerability to Status affects which for some of us is still too much for the bonus. Without a Toggle on with Mez Protection Rage is just like an Endurance crash except far worse as a stunned Tank cannot runaway. This is in truth a catch twenty two as Mez Protection Toggle+Rage=No immediate penalty. Noone is going to use Rage with Temp Invul for example and thats the problem as it promotes the need to be Exclusively used with a Toggle Mez.


The point is Rage is going to be changed whether we like it or not and now we have the chance to try and bring it out of the ashes. I would rather have an Immediate penelty (though not that End Crasher) then its current form provides. Rage quite frankly sucks and one can do better without it and thats the Problem. With Rage on you might kill a little faster then me but I will not suffer anyset backs and I will not have to fear anything. Kinda Sucks when a rage tank can be looked at as more of a liabilty then a welcomed opportunity of damage production.

Either way Rage seems like a power to ignore over the safer alternatives of Hasten. Its A going to be useful only on a couple of enemies or B be totally worthless across the board.

The end all to this rage discussion is if its going to be situational power it should be the perfect power to pop when fighting a boss and feel like a waste when fighting a minion and LT. The situation righ nowt is the reverse as Bosses are tougher and take far longer to defeat meaning if Rage crashes during the battle the tank is going to get beaten when the boss hits him with a Status affect. Inspirations are a copout not a fix and should not even be mention in this dicussion.

Self Stunning powers and end crashing powers only work with 9th Tier power as Dwimble pointed out. Those powers are so powerful that without a crash the character would be cheese. Now I am not stating tanks should not have weakness because we certainly are far more survivable then many other ATs. Its just at current time SS has a very high endurance Cost and with a power like Rage having self Stun mechanics (or worse Endurance Blow) this does not help the Tanks at all. In either case niether stun nor end blow are acceptable and rage does need to be fixed.

When a power is literally your own worse enemy with marginal gains in performance then why even use it all?


Another way to do Rage would be a click power that stays on for aslong as the Hero is engaged with current targets. Once all opponents fighting said character have been defeated Rage drops and burns all Endurance. This would mean that Rage would have to provide an End gain much like Unstoppable and with the End blow it keeps people from popping it in every fight.

Well where to begin...Seeten you hit the nail on the head with the Regen Scrapper comment. Unfortantely thats an off topic comments so i will just say again Seeten thanks for bring it to light.

Statesmen, I do not see how some of your comments make coherent sense. Currently there really isn't a way to ignore Rage issue because its either you pop rage on enemies you could beat without it or you can run the Stun risk and hope you take down the potential enemy quicker then normal. As I look at it 3 enrages and an Insight is a far better situational power then Rage. I thank god that tanks are not like the Warrior class in WoW but if you "nerf" SS anymore then they soon will be.

I understand the concept of the Tanks well as they are supposed to be the wall the team uses for its defense. However, we have Regen Scrappers that CAN AND WILL out Tank us. We, SS tanks are end hogs and we have truly few attacks that are worth thier end cost. I play a lvl 30 SS/Invul Tank and I carry atleast 12 cabs (I have yet to gain access to Take Breaths) and at the moment I am willing to "crawl" through the missions however the point is with all the End cost the powers do not match.

Why is it that Scrappers such as Spine Scrappers can fight with little end cost however we SS Tanks have attacks that do little damage but cost a lot of endurance. I read that you wanted tanks to basically have endurance problems but the problem is even without the End cost we SS tanks do not come close to the DPS of Scrappers nor Blasters. I do not mind having to pop a cab now and then but when i need the vertible "fountain of blue" to run my tank i think something is wrong. Rage in a way gives SS tankers something to justifty why they took SS as SS quite frankly is horrible.

This thread is a slap to our faces as you put up on the Test servers a test change to Rage that you had to know would incite the many SS players; which in away would make them rant instead of giving you good feedback.

Rage is a worthless power why because of its side affects. When I reached lvl i took rage well at first I loved it. However, Rage bit me on my butt when i Tried to tank two plus 2 bosses (A crey Protector and a Tank Smasher) and three minions. If i had not popped rage i would have won but since i did I crashed before i could finish of the bosses and a Handclap ended me. I do not think its viable that Rage has such a down side when I can tank Lvl 35 minions and LTs Riktis without Rage but with rage on its nothing more then a subpar minion buster.

I do not think the "Hardcore" players were able to ignore the penalties as you say. I have seen many SS tanks and I am one of them who thinks Rage is a useless risk that has no payoff. Why pop Rage when I can deal with these people more affectively without it? In the fight with the two lvl 32 bosses my HP was never the problem as the most damage i took was 10pts and had i not pop Rage I would have won. There is a definate problem when a power is more detrimental then it is usefull. If Rage had an ACC debuff or maybe a penalty that did not cause Toggle drop it would be fine.

Currently it is useless and only the most stubborn use it. I am a Tank what use do i have with a power that might cause Toggle Drop and get me killed? Do i get this power to go around saying "look I can pwn minions as fast as a Scrapper can Pwn Lts!".

The funny thing is Rage is a very nice concept power. A power that increases the SS mediocre damage output is needed but the current and tested Rage is nothing but Debt magnets. SS already has high End cost per attack that pretty much make the penalties of Rage more iof a waste then useful. The answer is not boosting all of the Powersety because you are still left with Rage being a subpar power that is far more detrimental to the cause of tanks then it is helpful. If rage is to have a Penalty then End Cost, Stuns, and Slow recharges would only make the problems of SS worse. The Tank needs to be able to well Tank Affectively for the team and none of the above will help the tank. You can keep the Defense Debuff and add a hefty debuff of Accuracy or damage output that would be an exceptable compromise penalty as it would allow the tank to still hold Aggro for his team through taunts and since his Toggles are still up his survivability is still intact for solo. If I were a Dev that is how i would do it.