Maybe add an endurance drain similar to when hasten ends? (and lose the stun)?
Maybe a Dmg debuff of roughly equal duration and scale to Rage. That evens out the DPS, and still makes it so you only want to use it when you need it.
(Edit: There is a change in Rage on Test, that drops your endurance to 0 like Elude, at the moment. I refer to that.)
Drop it to 3 or 5 Endurance left at the end of the Rage, I'd say. The big issue is that Rage going down drops all your toggles now. With that change, if you're careful, you'll learn to survive the end of Rage without being offed. Right now... well, the tank losing all his protection mid-fight isn't such a great thing for anyone. (Edit: Speaking as someone who primarially plays a SR scrapper, I've observed that Elude is only really usable as a panic button _or_ in permanent form, because when it drops your toggies, if you can't fire it off again, you're in deep kimchee. Rage doesn't have the defensive bonus Elude does. I do like the damage debuff idea at the end of Rage, though. There's a lot of fun situational things you can do with debuffs and buffs at tail ends of powers.)
Speaking of endurance issues, any comments on the increased cost of Hasten, or the _possible_ increased use of endurance that came with I3? I've noticed it, so have several others. It's possible that the clock may be ticking faster, as I've been watching my endurance recover faster as well. This may have relevance to the endurance drop of Rage as it is on Test. I'm not sure, though.
PERC Supporter
La Pucelle (BS/SR)
Miseria Bella (Sonic/Dark)
Wrangler Annie (SS/Elec)
Coldsmoke (Ice/Dark)
Saber Maid (BS/Regen)
and others...
I can understand a bit of an endurance drain at the end. A complete endurance drain seems extreme. This power is not in the same league as something like Nova.
One key issue remains toggle dependency on a lot of Tanker builds. If some of the passives were more effective that dependency might be less of an issue...
I think the biggest concern a lot of people have with this change is that SS's damage potential *appears* to have been balanced around Rage. The numbers I've seen on this board seem to indicate that. Although it could be completely untrue. It'd be nice to see a dev make a comment on that.
If SS's damage is, indeed, on par with other Tanker (mostly single-target) secondaries, then please consider just giving SS build up in Rage's place. While Rage is a cool concept, it seems like you're trying to reinvent the wheel here. If you're dead set on giving Rage a huge trade-off, then no matter how you slice it, the other sets -- the ones with just plain ole vanilla build up -- are going to be much better off.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
[ QUOTE ]
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the post. I think the big concern now is that 100% end reduction ALSO drops everyone's toggles when their endurance tanks. I concur that it should have a penalty that people should not be able to ignore but a tanker with no toggles is dead. Perhaps a lesser drop in endurance would need your needs? 90%? 75%? I don't know if the community here fully understands your goals but our goal is to not die . Whatever penalty you come up with, please ensure that it is viable for a tanker stuck in combat. If you are in the middle of a massive battle trying to keep your team alive, rage taking you out is not an option.
Statesman, many SS Tankers dealt with the Rage stun or quite simply did not use it. Currently the test version is unplayable, it drops end to 0 and this of course kills all our toggles. Rage used to have the possibility to drop toggles if you got stunned during the Rage stun simply because it was such a high magnitude stun. Now it is guarenteed to drop toggles and has on every test I and many others ran.
Uy is not a "hard-core" power it is one of the critical invuln tools. Many of us felt the Rage stun maxxed out Uy on purpose. Ergo that if you got stunned one more time on top of the Rage drop you were in trouble and that is a major dividing issue in the SS camp. We have "I hate Rage because of the stun" and "I love Rage and deal with the stun". Possible solutions to the stun if you feel like removing it?
<ul type="square"> [*]Tweak SS's damage, delay, and animation time to fit with other Tanker secondaries and change it to standard Build-Up. [*]Keep an end penalty but not 100% end penalty, this is far worse then the stun effect. Perhaps -20 end or some other large but not suicidal figure. [*]Keep a slightly less severe stun effect, or quite frankly leave it as is. The stun is manageable now. Every Tanker primary has some kind of stun protection, and teammates can also help here. Fire/SS may need to have increased stun protection I am seeing on forums right now however.[/list]Rage is a fun high risk/high gain power as it is now. It has killed me but -100% end is far too severe and will kill "Joe Gamer" far more then the stun. Most Tankers strive to get status protection early (like Uy) and should.
Something that affects everyone evenly? How about, for a period of time (possibly the same duration as the current stun), the character gets a zero base End regen. That would simulate being tired, it would hit everyone evenly, and you could make it so that it couldn't be mitigated with Stamina. However, buffs from Defenders and accolades would still be affective. That would promote teaming.
Complete End drain at the end will make the power even less useable for the casuals.
A complete end drain will cause people to stand around, waiting for the crash. That's a minute of standing around doing nothing, and waiting for the end bar to rebuild afterwards. IOW, a whole lot of waiting.
I don't think that rage will be used often that way.
Just halve the duration (or bring down by 2/3rds), and lose the end drain at the end with a little smaller activation cost than Buildup. Then it would be more akin to Buildup and the like, a bit weaker in the boost, but longer in duration to compensate.
Seems fair, imho, less immediate gain than Buildup, catches up and outstrips it later. Just like every other damage power works - a minor damage power *will* outstrip a high/superior/extreme level damage power over time.
Toggle dropping and total end drain definitely isn't the answer; that is far too much, and it will relegate the power to the trash bin. By the very nature of their role, Tankers (and their teams!) simply cannot afford to be left defenseless. The goal may be to make the power situational, but I cannot think of any realistic scenario I would want to use Rage in the state it is on test.
The stun was okay, it did introduce an element of risk, but it was often easily mitigated; when it wasn't though the effects could be dire, as toggle drop frequently means a trip to the hospital for a team Tanker unless his temmates are quick to react.
An hasten-like penalty to endurance at the end of the cycle could not be as easily avoided as the stun, but the impact would be much less. There would be a chance of toggle drop if the end penalty brought the Tanker's endurance to 0, but at least a cautious Tanker could be careful to keep the end drop from leaving him defenseless. All in all, the cost of using Rage would be more consistent, not as easily avoidable, but much less likely to inflict catastrophe.
A penalty to defense throughout the use of Rage (which could then conceivably become a toggle, though it could just as likely stay a click) would be very characterful (berserk offense at the expense of defense) and introduce an element of strategy in the power's use, though a defense penalty may be too easy to mitigate in many circumstances for some Tanker primaries.
Whatever you do, keep in mind that if Rage has to become situational, SuperStrength still has to be balanced with the other Tanker secondaries who replace Rage with Buildup which has a much lesser duration but also far more usable. The general feeling is that currently Super Strength + perma-Rage is comparable (though inferior) to a set like Energy Melee, including its Buildup. If Rage becomes something that is used only occasionally, Super Strength may need to be buffed up so it can keep up.
[ QUOTE ]
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty.
[/ QUOTE ]Wait a second. I'm hardcore for using Unyielding? "Casual" players don't use a power they can get at level 8? Doesn't EVERY tanker primary have some sort of disorient protection way before level 28?
A 100% endurance drain is just flat out going too far. I respeced out of Unstoppable because it's no longer worth the power slot. With a 100% drain, Rage is in the same boat.
I agree with some of the others that an endurance penalty similar to Hasten would be appropriate. Anything more would keep me from using it any time I'd really need it.
[ QUOTE ]
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is precisely what the new version of the power does! It's even worse of a crash than the old Perma-Unstoppable crash was, because at least then, Unstoppable's status defenses would still be protecting you during the drop. But now, once Unyielding drops and you're at zero endurance, you'll just get chain-stunned and die when the toggles drop, period.
It is very unfortunate that further power tuning is occurring after the respec, particuarly build-shaking tuning.
Can we expect further free respecs, perhaps given only to those whose powers are fundamentally altered?
I understand what is trying to be done with Rage but I definitely agree that whats going on on the test server is NOT the answer. Alot of good suggestions have been given already from a smaller end drain, to reduced dmg after it wears off, to not being able to recover end for a short time. Rage is not a good enough power to warrant a huge disadvantage at its end. Hasten, as it was mentioned, is definitely the best comparison.
Heres an idea:
when Rage wears off, instead of endurance dropping to zero (thereby losing all toggled defenses, the heart of the tanker), You instead have incredibly sllloooowww recharge time on all powers.
This would simulate how tired the hero now is! Perhaps a minute or more. And the hero will need to be placed on the untimate defensive position untill then..."catching his breath", so to speak.
And, to prevent further perma-unstoppable tankers (that was never the intention of those powers), when Rage wears off, unstoppable turns off, suffer the penalties of that power, and the very slow recharge takes place...no more perma!
I always though Rage and Unstoppable were like the comic book equivilent of that heroes last ditch effort, the all or nothing gambit against the foe on the last page fight. This might make these powers, and the tanker Heroic again...
Atomic Knight
[ QUOTE ]
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
[/ QUOTE ]
This is down to player knowledge, it's got nothing to do with Power gamers or casual gamers!!!
Make the information more readily available in game so that everyone knows they can get round the Stun (most of the time) by having Unyielding.
Educate the player base, don't punish the ones who have the knowledge.
It's not like Unyielding or Unstoppable are some big secret or anything.........
One problem with all the functions that run out, particularly functions that then drain you when it runs out (unstoppable, hasten, Foce of nature) is that you have to guess when it will run out. I've never had a character with Rage, but I understand it's similar. I have had that disquieting experience of being in the thick of battle when unstoppable runs out.
How hard would it be for click powers to change colors or something when there's 30 seconds left, and start flashing or something when there's 15 seconds left.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Especially as Hasten is superior to Rage in damage gain.
Hasten almost halves recharge time, and thus almost *doubles* DPS (enhanced damage that is, not just base damage!). Rage raises base damage by 80%, ignoring Damage enhancements. Depending on slotting, the net gain of Rage is far smaller than Hasten's in terms of DPS.
[ QUOTE ]
One problem with all the functions that run out, particularly functions that then drain you when it runs out (unstoppable, hasten, Foce of nature) is that you have to guess when it will run out. I've never had a character with Rage, but I understand it's similar. I have had that disquieting experience of being in the thick of battle when unstoppable runs out.
How hard would it be for click powers to change colors or something when there's 30 seconds left, and start flashing or something when there's 15 seconds left.
[/ QUOTE ]
The power I've had the most experience with is Unstoppable, I've gotten a pretty idea of when its about to run out based on how long its been recharging. True though if you're ina big battle you're not going to pay as much attention, and usually get caught offguard.
If you think that draining ALL endu is an acceptable punishment, then why not change hasten to have the same effect? The builds that don't have hasten are far and few between, and it provides a major benefit to ALL of your powers, and already has a 15% drop in your endurance.
I'd love to see the out cry over that.
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
How about a period of fatigue - albeit brief - with reduced resistances and damage output....
I'm at a loss as to why that power needs any downside. It's not that hot of a power as it is.
-50% Current End
-50% Current Health
No Stun effect.
Over the top???
Or just leave the bugger as it is, Please.......
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!