Which gets back to the "tanks aren't supposed to do damage" mentality.
What then do you say to Fire, or Energy, or Axe, or Stone? Why is Superstrength forced to be inferior to these sets?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Which gets back to the "tanks aren't supposed to do damage" mentality.
What then do you say to Fire, or Energy, or Axe, or Stone? Why is Superstrength forced to be inferior to these sets?
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Why then is INV so much better than Fire? Or why does Stone get protection from Psy and not Fire.
And your point is?
Invul is better than Fire only if you're looking at how much damage the tank can take. If you're looking at how much the tank can dish out however, Fire far surpasses Invul. They do different things; this doesn't make one necessarily superior to the other. Both serve the function of a primary powerset, which is to protect the tanker, and they both do it well, as any Fire tanker can attest to. They just do it in different ways.
All of which has nothing to do with the current incarnation of Rage.
The current incarnation of Rage isn't fun, that's all it comes down to.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
I have no problems with rage at all. Its a bummer when I cant attack, but it really only lasts a short while. The Agro remains on me without any problem, and the drop in attacks gives me a chance to let my endurance recover a bit. Granted, I have an Invul tanker and with invincibility on its a contstant agro. With Perma hasten, rage usually recharges before the first one runs out. As soon as I can swing again, Im all fired up to go.
my 2¢
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And your point is?
Invul is better than Fire only if you're looking at how much damage the tank can take. If you're looking at how much the tank can dish out however, Fire far surpasses Invul. They do different things; this doesn't make one necessarily superior to the other. Both serve the function of a primary powerset, which is to protect the tanker, and they both do it well, as any Fire tanker can attest to. They just do it in different ways.
All of which has nothing to do with the current incarnation of Rage.
The current incarnation of Rage isn't fun, that's all it comes down to.
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And taking FAR more damage than the INV tanks while not being able to manage the aggro as well is fun for Fire/Fire? My best Damage is done DOT and AOE that means I should be able to manage the aggro at least close to what a INV tanker and yet I cannot time and time again I have seen INV tanks herd whole areas in a zone with +3s and +4s and remain standing. While I as F/F tank could barely manage to hold the aggro on 3 to 4 mobs let alone survive them.
You complain about ONE power in your set while overlooking that you have the single most resistant character in the WHOLE game to anything but psychic attacks. I remember when INV/SS tanks were the ugly stepchidren of this game. Try to be gratefull to the DEVS for that. It not being fun is not a compelling reason to change the power. I have a SS tank in my SG who rarely uses rage at all. When he plays this toon his goal is to manage the aggro for the damage dealers to kill the mobs
Invuln has nothing to do with Rage. Rage is part of Super Strength, which isn't even a primary. Fire/SS is completely possible, and would suffer on both sides.
I flat out HATE the new Rage, but I've given up hope on it ever being changed. I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. Nothing said here will matter anymore.
I love Rage as it is right now.
Let me get this out of the way right now; I'm primarilly a soloer. Therefor, the 'no attacks' downtime at the end, and lack of aggro control when it drops, doesn't hurt me so much.
Rage lets me deal damage. Rage lets me deal damage that feels close to being on par with what a character with Super Strength should be doing. Rage lets me solo, when I want to.
Rage isn't a good idea for a team-tank. A team tank is all about aggro-management, and that 10-second downtime could spell doom for the squishies in the group.
There are two solutions for team-tanks as far as Rage is concerned. Do as I do when teamed and don't use Rage, or just don't get it at all.
No one forced you to get this power. Its situational [provided you don't solo often] but powerful, like a lot of the later powers. It works well when you're alone, or not the primary tank.
I love Rage. Please don't let it change again.
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Invuln has nothing to do with Rage. Rage is part of Super Strength, which isn't even a primary. Fire/SS is completely possible, and would suffer on both sides.
I flat out HATE the new Rage, but I've given up hope on it ever being changed. I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. Nothing said here will matter anymore.
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I disagree the DEVs have been really good a looking at both sides providing you give a persuasive argument of why something should be changed. The "it's not fun" argument is neither persuasive nor compelling. My SG has 2 high lvl SS tankers and neither of them especially liked the changes but have learned to be effective with them and even be happy.
And yes I know that RAGE is in the secondary power set but if you look at the Fire Secondary what is so much better about fire for damage than SS. As I see it, ENG is better than both for damage. Combine ENG with INV or FIRE and you have a really strong killin' machine 
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I disagree the DEVs have been really good a looking at both sides providing you give a persuasive argument of why something should be changed. The "it's not fun" argument is neither persuasive nor compelling. My SG has 2 high lvl SS tankers and neither of them especially liked the changes but have learned to be effective with them and even be happy.
[/ QUOTE ]How about "the drawback doesn't make sense for a tank" argument, or the "it has four times the penalties of Hasten" argument?
Does it make sense for a tank to give up the ability to protect his teammates, for however short an amount of time, just to do a bit more damage? What Would Superman Do?
Most tanks already hurt for endurance if they use their attacks frequently (and why else would you they be using Rage?). Why give it an activation cost AND a 25% endurance drain AND a defense debuff AND 10 seconds of inactivity?
But like I said, I'm pretty sure this is not going to be reevaluated for a long time, if ever. The devs are happy with their change, and they've let it go for long enough that most everyone is just adjusting to the new way of life and letting the issue drop.
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How about "the drawback doesn't make sense for a tank" argument, or the "it has four times the penalties of Hasten" argument?
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The drawback makes perfect sense to me. You pitch a fit and go beserk, hitting harder, so you need some downtime afterwards.
As far as the penatlies of Hasten, I think that's another argument. I personally feel that Hasten is overpowered to begin with, and think Hasten needs more of a penalty. You're basically increasing your damage by around 40%, making many powers either stackable or permanent, AND giving 5% defense. Yeah...that's comparable to something like Swift or Combat Jumping [sarcasm].
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Does it make sense for a tank to give up the ability to protect his teammates, for however short an amount of time, just to do a bit more damage?
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You get far greater benefit from Rage than 'a bit more damage'.
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Why give it an activation cost AND a 25% endurance drain AND a defense debuff AND 10 seconds of inactivity?
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Because for the 2 minutes BEFORE it ran out, you got a lot of extra damage.
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How about "the drawback doesn't make sense for a tank" argument, or the "it has four times the penalties of Hasten" argument?
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The drawback makes perfect sense to me. You pitch a fit and go beserk, hitting harder, so you need some downtime afterwards.
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Yes, but what is the FORM of that downtime? That's what doesn't make sense. Is the hero winded, is he not able to punch as hard any more? Is he stunned, disoriented, is he about to "pass out"? Is he moving slower, because he burned so much adrenaline, and thus less able to dodge? Is he exhausted, out of energy, does he have to catch a breath before he can get back into the fight?
Or, does he just stand there like a lump, watching his allies getting clobbered because both of his hands just got tied behind his back?
For the drawback to make sense, it has to follow logically from the advantage. Losing Endurance makes sense. Losing Defense makes sense. Even losing damage makes sense, since you were GAINING damage. But being unable to attack OR Taunt does NOT make sense. It doesn't follow logically from either the Tanker's primary role on the team (to draw aggro) or the Tanker's purpose in using Rage on a team. (To increase his damage so he will draw more aggro)
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Does it make sense for a tank to give up the ability to protect his teammates, for however short an amount of time, just to do a bit more damage?
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You get far greater benefit from Rage than 'a bit more damage'.
[...]
Because for the 2 minutes BEFORE it ran out, you got a lot of extra damage.
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Rage isn't that big of a difference. It's 80% more damage. That's a damage buff, it's 80% of your base more damage. If you've enhanced your attacks, that's only 380% maximum. It's not like you've doubled your damage or anything. In fact, Rage is MORE useful to the Tankers who DON'T enhance their Secondaries, because it allows them to draw more aggro without spending slots on damage. (They can slot for Taunt and still do 180% damage, which IS almost double...)
Plus, if the assumption is correct that Super Strength has less damage than the other Melee sets, that's what it's SUPPOSED to do. It's not there to give Super Strength a lot of advantage, it's there to give it the same damage as other sets. So if that's the case, Rage does not need a large penalty, because the low damage of the other attacks ARE the penalty.
The "penalty" for Rage is not because Rage is "uber" but to give it flavor. The Raging hero goes through a period not of downtime, but of disorientation, where he comes out of the berzerk fury and has lost a good deal of his strength and energy. That was the original concept behind the Disorient effect, and I agree with the concept, even though the implementation was flawed. This is an implementation, too, and it's still flawed, because it doesn't address the primary drawback of going berzerk. While berzerk, the bezerker is not trying to defend himself. THAT'S the trade-off, and Rage has never really addressed it. (Except for the Def reduction, but that's only a minor penalty, compared to the others)
I would just like to clarify a few points I have noticed on Rage.
First off, several people have made comments on how Rage gives you a lot more, or extreme amounts, of damage. This is untrue. Even with Rage a Super Strength Tanker will never do extreme amounts of damage! By the time a toon can get it most players will have their attacks slotted up and be using SOs. With an attack fully slotted with SOs the increase from Rage is only around 30%. Thats less than what one SO will give you.
Now I can understand the penalties if you could get Rage at the lower levels when you really need it but you dont get it till much later on.
Next, if you compare it to Hasten (A power pool power), Hasten is comparable to two SOs with no major penalty. Why should there be a penalty on Rage (A secondary power) that is only equivalent to less than one SO when a power pool power that is equivalent to two SOs doesnt have a penalty?
Its my opinion that the Devs need to either raise the benefits from Rage to better reflect the penalties or remove the penalties all together.
Super Strength is, to me, the most favorite power in the Tanker lineup because it fits best with most build concepts. I think it should be the number one powerset for the Tankers in effectiveness but with its low damage and no defining power it really isnt the best choice.
Lady Tara
Level 48
Invulnerable/Super Strength Tanker
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With an attack fully slotted with SOs the increase from Rage is only around 30%.
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Where are you getting this number? Even with all +3 SO damage enhancers in a power, that would bring you to roughly 228% extra damage, leaving you with 72% more you could enhance it with Rage. If you mean Rage would increase the increase (boy, that looks weird) by 30% (30% of 228 is 68.4), then yeah, but that's not what we're talking about.
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Super Strength is, to me, the most favorite power in the Tanker lineup because it fits best with most build concepts. I think it should be the number one powerset for the Tankers in effectiveness
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This kind of commentary makes me a bit angry. Why should Superstrength tankers be more effective than other types? If Cryptic made SS tankers the most effective, what would be the reason to even pick the other sets? What nakes Superstrength so special that it 'deserves' to do more damage than other sets?
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but with its low damage and no defining power it really isnt the best choice.
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No defining power?! You got Knockout Blow and Hand Clap (which admittedly isn't taken much, but not because it doesn't look cool), both of which are pretty much the kind of things I would expect a Superstrength tanker to do. Knockout Blow is just about the only 'required' power for Superstrength tankers. They debate about whether to take Hand Clap, or Foot Stomp, or Hurl Boulder, but never whether or not to take KO Blow (unless they're a hardcore taunt bot).
Where exactly is this 'low' damage?! Roll up an Ice Melee Tanker....THAT is low damage. SS is far above Ice Melee. I'm not talking about comparing SS to Energy Melee, since EM is the high end of the spectrum. You can look at it this way...EM is basically SS with TWO KO Blow powers instead of one. Other than that, they are basically the same in damage.
My sensibilities get a bit whacked when I continuously see complaints about SS's "low" damage, and see them hit mobs for twice (or more) damage than I do.
I really feel that Rage, KO blow, Footstomp, and consistant knockdown are the 4 jewels of Super Strength. And Although Rage does take some end, more than hasten which is funny because hasten actually makes me do more damage, and although Rage gives me 10 seconds of no taunt and somehow I think it affects the taunt in my Invinvibility, (boy is this a travesty to the English language... HUGE run on senence... heh) I love rage. It makes me feel like a super strength Tanker should.
I would like to see High Tower and all the other Ice tnks out there get something that imporves the less than mediocre damage of Ice tanks.
I think Rage is currently great the way it is... its downtime is really not such a hndrence as long as your using taunt liberally befor it drops.
its time to stop looking at rage.
Rage is fine.
I vote the devs move on to ice melee... whos with me?
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With an attack fully slotted with SOs the increase from Rage is only around 30%.
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Where are you getting this number? Even with all +3 SO damage enhancers in a power, that would bring you to roughly 228% extra damage, leaving you with 72% more you could enhance it with Rage. If you mean Rage would increase the increase (boy, that looks weird) by 30% (30% of 228 is 68.4), then yeah, but that's not what we're talking about.
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Oh, but it IS what were are talking about. What Lady_Tara was saying, what you agreed with, and what even I mentioned, is that the 80% damage buff for Rage applies only to its base damage. If you six slot an attack for damage, that's 300%. (328% for +3 as you pointed out) Plus Rage, that's 380%, which is about 27% over what you would have gotten without Rage.
So if you haven't Enhanced your attacks, you're getting 80% more damage, but if they're close to max, you're only getting about 30%. You probably know this, and so do most of the other people here, so maybe it is "what we're talking about". But it does seem as if some people think of Rage as giving a much larger bonus to damage.
Now, as for Ice not doing as much damage, while I can empathise, you've got far more powers to hold a foe and freeze him in place than Super Strength. So I wouldn't exactly call that comparing apples to apples. If you compare equivalent attacks to equivalent attacks, Ice actually does the more damage. It just doesn't get a big attack like Knockout Blow.
If you wanted to do high damage, then you should have gone with Mace or Battle Axe. But then you wouldn't be able to hold. You don't need to aggro what you have held. So while I do admit that it's kind of unfair that Ice Tankers don't do as much damage, it's not really imbalancing. Obviously, that's the way that Power Set is designed, and obviously you chose to go with that when you saw all those powers that hold your foes and don't damage them.
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With an attack fully slotted with SOs the increase from Rage is only around 30%.
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Where are you getting this number? Even with all +3 SO damage enhancers in a power, that would bring you to roughly 228% extra damage, leaving you with 72% more you could enhance it with Rage. If you mean Rage would increase the increase (boy, that looks weird) by 30% (30% of 228 is 68.4), then yeah, but that's not what we're talking about.
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I imagine she was talking about the total increase to your damage, not to your base. And that's not a weird way to put it, just not the typical way people talk about it. Further, she actually underestimated it. Because if you have your attacks fully slotted with SOs then Rage only adds about 22-27% to your total damage, not 30%.
In other words, if your attack does 100 damage unslotted, then it would do about 300 damage 6 slotted with white SOs. Rage would add 80 more damage, which is about a 27% increase. If it was slotted with +3 SOs, then it would do 328 damage and Rage would add 72 damage because you would hit the cap. That's a 22% increase to your total damage. It's definitely significant, but not a massive improvement on a heavily slotted attack.
The more SOs you have slotted, the less improvement it gives when expressing the improvement as a percentage of total damage. So, if you have no Damage SOs slotted then Rage increase your damage by 80%. If you have 6 +3 SOs then Rage increases it by 22% of the total.
Edited: Heh, Jade Dragon beat me to it.
Dwimble
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I would like to see High Tower and all the other Ice tnks out there
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High Tower, eh? 
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Oh, but it IS what were are talking about. What Lady_Tara was saying, what you agreed with, and what even I mentioned, is that the 80% damage buff for Rage applies only to its base damage. If you six slot an attack for damage, that's 300%. (328% for +3 as you pointed out) Plus Rage, that's 380%, which is about 27% over what you would have gotten without Rage.
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No, not really. Here is what Lady_Tara said:
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With an attack fully slotted with SOs the increase from Rage is only around 30%. Thats less than what one SO will give you.
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The point is, it's NOT less than what one SO will give you. Regardless of how you slot a power, 80% to the base is equal to over TWO +3 SOs. She made it sound as if the '30%' increase in the damage you are doing NOW is about equal to adding another SO, which is NOT true. Putting on Rage is about like adding 2 +3 SOs.
And my comment about 'increasing the increase' was a flat ~30% increase of the enhanced damage, which it is not. I know it works out to be similar, but that's not what I was saying.
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Now, as for Ice not doing as much damage, while I can empathise, you've got far more powers to hold a foe and freeze him in place than Super Strength
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And just what are these amazing powers of holding? I have ONE hold power (Freezing Touch). Knockout Blow is a hold as well. Ice Patch is not a hold, even though it effectively makes enemies less likely to attack. You have Hand Clap and Footstomp, which do the same. I'm not counting the almost non-existant secondary Slow effect from the melee attacks, which do almost nothing against higher level foes, and I'm surely not counting Frozen Aura (which is a very rare choice even for the already very rare Ice Tanker).
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obviously you chose to go with that when you saw all those powers that hold your foes and don't damage them.
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I didn't choose this set because of the supposed uber controller powers of it. I chose it because I thought it looked good and fit my concept.
I've never asked for a extreme increase in damage. Perhaps if they raised some of the attacks to do either more damage or other secondary effect (besides the gimped slow it has). I'm not asking for an attack like Total Focus or Energy Transfer or whatever. Perhaps an attack like Cleave or Heavy Mallet, both of which still do far more damage than Greater Ice Sword.
So is this issue just being ignored now? Just change it and let us deal with it, even though so many tankers do NOT like the change?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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So is this issue just being ignored now? Just change it and let us deal with it, even though so many tankers do NOT like the change?
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Hmmm seems you are the only one keeping it alive
Well then I will continue to do so.
The penalty on Rage is because, theoretically, it is a situational power. Rage is indeed a situational power; it's useful in any and every situation... but that's beside the point. Does the penalty do what it's supposed to? If it's supposed to limit the use of Rage, then no, it does not. People still run Rage constantly. People still stack Rage, even. People simply 'power through' the ten-second ADHD syndrome, interminable as it seems in combat. The benefits of Rage are great, and the penalty, while annoying and often dangerous, does nothing to alter that. Thus the penalty to Rage fails in what it is ostensibly supposed to do, and only succeeds instead in frustrating the player and, often, his teammates.
I fail to see the logic behind this.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Heres an idea:
when Rage wears off, instead of endurance dropping to zero (thereby losing all toggled defenses, the heart of the tanker), You instead have incredibly sllloooowww recharge time on all powers.
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I don't want Rage changed at all, but if it has to be then please yes let it be this.
i think the did something to it on live, i say that because i was playing my tank and for some odd reason my toggles would drop when rage and hasten ended and i had a little less then half end left. this happened as couple times almost got me killed. so i activated rage attacked a few things and waited for it to drop and it dropped my end down about 25%. at least someone told us they were going to do it on live. first i thought, nah, probably was alway there and i looked at other descriptions and nothing mentioned loss of end, well of course that doesn't count for the test version of it.
Well, since the thread hasn't been locked yet, this is obviously still open for discussion, although you wouldn't guess it. I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the response, or lack of one rather, given to this issue, despite the heavily negative response of the majority of superstrength tankers. Between stripping the knockback out of the set back in Issue 2 and the current incarnation of Rage, the fun has been pretty thoroughly sucked out of the powerset. Once my subscription expires I'm shelving my invul/superstrength tank permanently. I plan on coming back to the game when circumstances allow, but it won't be to play that character.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
This thread has been open for a long time now, and many of us seem to have even forgotten its here. I hated Rage 2.0 (barring that no end crash bug), and Rage 3.0 is better, but many are still dissatisfied with it. Since this is still open, I think many of us would like to see if any further changes are coming for Rage, or if it is "closed". I am ok with Rage 3.0, but some are not, and this thread has been open for a very long time, and no verification about Rage in ages. Is it still open? Or is it a forgotten issue that just has not been locked yet?
The new Rage seems perfectly balanced to me. If I'm in a big group, I am NOT popping rage. I'll just be a tank. in smaller groups, it's usually safer to pop rage and my damage is much more important. Just using standard tank tactics (building a nice cluster), I seem able to hold onto aggro long enough.
Now, against an AV, I would also not run rage unless I sensed the end was near (and I had fought the AV before and knew the AV wouldn't pop a heal of some kind).
All and all, I think you did a super job with rage!