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Through my career most of the tanks I've teamed with have been of the invul/superstrength variety. In the past week, though, I've teamed with some other variants -- invul/energy, fire/ice, fire/fire, and fire/energy I think covers all of them. I have watched them closely to see how the sets work (especially since I have ten seconds out of every 100 or so that I can't do anything else).
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Is there a reason you picked the sets that are the most offensively powerful for your comparison?
Fire/(anything) will outdamage all other tanker sets, no matter the build. You just can't compare any tanker secondaries to it, since it won't match up with Burn.
Energy, while admittedly considered a late bloomer for damage output, still outdamages other secondaries, simply because of Energy Transfer. In my personal opinion, ET is a bit overpowered (compare it to Ice Melee's 35 attack, where ET does more than twice the damage of Greater Ice Sword but uses the same amount of endurance)....but I'm not here to call for any nerfs 
The thing you might be seeing with Axe might be because Axe has more damaging attacks at lower levels than Superstrength. SS doesn't get its first 'heavy hitter' until 10, and then no others really until 20 when it can get Knockout Blow. Axe gets three pretty good damage attacks by the time they reach 20 (Chop, Beheader, Swoop).
Knockout Blow still outdamages any attack in the Axe line, any attack in the Fire line, any attack in the Mace line, any TWO attacks added together in the Ice line, and any attack in the Stone Melee line. The ONLY attacks that equal or surpass it are Energy Transfer, Total Focus, and of course, Burn.
Superstrength gets an almost constant damage buff for themselves. The others can get Buildup, which lasts 10 seconds. Are you telling me it's more fair for Superstrength to get almost constant damage buff to an already solid damage line, and have NO drawbacks (or very minor ones), while lines like Ice and Mace get MUCH lower damaging attacks and get Buildup as their sole mitigator?!
To bring this into another perspective, I could come fight next to you with my Ice Tanker, flip on Buildup, and do about the SAME damage as you do WITHOUT running Rage or using damage inspirations. So, for TEN SECONDS out of 90, I could equal a SS tanker's damage output without Rage.
Mace and Ice are widely regarded as needing serious love. The reason I didn't use them is because they need to be brought up to the effectiveness of the other sets. But even there, they still do not have to deal with forced downtime.
The serious gap between good tanker sets and poor tanker sets is a separate issue, one that does need to be fixed, but which isn't a part of this discussion.
As far as Knockout Blow goes... what's your point? I think it would be great if every tanker set had an attack that was as powerful. That still does nothing to mitigate the low damage of other powers in the set or the fact that we cannot use it, or any other attack, for ten seconds when Rage dies.
Any other tank can deal damage continuously, even mace and ice. They are not forced to stop. No other power from any other set, for any archetype, forces the player to stand and do nothing for ten seconds. This is frankly unfair.
Rage does not make superstrength overpowered compared to other tanker sets (except ice and mace which are agreed to be underpowered by the entire tanker community and probably the game community in general). In fact Rage brings superstrength up to par with the other sets since it's substandard otherwise. Having the ADHD debuff when Rage drops is nothing short of capricious.
And most importantly. It is NOT fun.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Through my career most of the tanks I've teamed with have been of the invul/superstrength variety. In the past week, though, I've teamed with some other variants -- invul/energy, fire/ice, fire/fire, and fire/energy I think covers all of them. I have watched them closely to see how the sets work (especially since I have ten seconds out of every 100 or so that I can't do anything else).
Rage as it currently exists is flat out unfair.
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So have you experienced these other sets by playing them or is this just anecdotal evidence?
For a long time, I believed what was said on the boards. SS uses overly high endurance. It is balanced for damage based on the idea of rage constantly running. Look at the numbers!
...then I played my tanks.
My anecdotal evidence and experience says that SS is a good set. I'm guessing that you have more here than you posted, but I'll stick with what I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is that you're saying that the SS secondary is weak when compared to other secondaries and a highly damaging primary. That just doesn't seem to make sense. Have you tried Fire/SS? On the not fire side, so what if Energy does more damage? Have you compared endurance used, recharge times, and when certain powers come into play?
What I've seen doesn't appear to paint SS as a low damage, high end set. I think Rage is unfair. Not in the weak way though. I'm surprised there is a near permanent version of Build Up on a set that isn't gimp.
*Note my opinions keep shifting as new info is inputted. This view is a result from a bit of comparing different sets and views of them. Liable to change quickly
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My point is not about how relatively "good" a set is or not compared to other sets. You can't tell me that, even with Rage, superstrength can equal the destructive power of other sets like fire (primary or secondary) or energy. It can't, I know this for a fact. You know what? I don't particularly care that they're higher damage sets. What I do care about is that they get to deal their damage uninterrupted, while we have a forced ten second downtime every ninety to one-hundred twenty seconds where we can't do damage at all (or, incidentally, anything else). The logic (or lack of it) behind this escapes me. Yes, it is unfair. A higher-damage set is allowed to deal that higher damage uninterrupted, while strengthers are not.
I don't care if other sets have higher damage, it's the way it's dealt that bothers me. I don't understand why I'm punished for using my set to its full potential, when other more effective sets aren't.
The most important point, however, the one which it always keeps coming back to, is that it's not fun.
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Ok then give us fire tanks the abilty to take less damage, hold the aggro better, more resistances that are always one versus toggles, and while we are at it make it so we use less slots to max out our resistances the way SS tanks can, the abilty to use inspirations/fiery embrace/build up on burn .... help us with all that and we can talk about your 10 seconds of standing around being a meat shield for your team.
You keep talking about not being able to be an offensive powerhouse and how unfair it is that you can't do as much damage as other tankers can. But, I have yet to see you acknowledge how advantageous the SS build is when it comes to the sheer amount of punishent you can take vs other tanks. How many bonuses does the SS line have over all the others? How well can you herd entire zones over every other tank?
You want to be a damage dealer get a Fire tank and take all the damage one gets. Please quit telling us the SS/INV is broken because there is a down side to one power. Maybe I should be so passionate about my Eng/Eng blaster and nova?
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In fact Rage brings superstrength up to par with the other sets since it's substandard otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]How is SS substandard?
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Ok then give us fire tanks the abilty to take less damage, hold the aggro better, more resistances that are always one versus toggles, and while we are at it make it so we use less slots to max out our resistances the way SS tanks can, the abilty to use inspirations/fiery embrace/build up on burn .... help us with all that and we can talk about your 10 seconds of standing around being a meat shield for your team.
You keep talking about not being able to be an offensive powerhouse and how unfair it is that you can't do as much damage as other tankers can. But, I have yet to see you acknowledge how advantageous the SS build is when it comes to the sheer amount of punishent you can take vs other tanks. How many bonuses does the SS line have over all the others? How well can you herd entire zones over every other tank?
You want to be a damage dealer get a Fire tank and take all the damage one gets. Please quit telling us the SS/INV is broken because there is a down side to one power. Maybe I should be so passionate about my Eng/Eng blaster and nova?
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Okay, I am not going to get into the Rage discussion again, but you need to get something straight here. Rage is a SS power, not an Inv power. There are plenty of people that take Inv/En, Inv/Fire, Inv/anything, that have nothing to do with the chages to Rage. Don't start comparing Primaries and acting like it has something to do with SS changes. It doesn't.
It does bring up the question though, how many people take Fire/SS, Stone/SS, or any of the other combos with SS?
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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In fact Rage brings superstrength up to par with the other sets since it's substandard otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]How is SS substandard?
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It's purely smashing, the most resisted damage type in the game, and its attacks other than Knockout Blow (which recharges very slowly) are very low damage. Even Haymaker isn't anything spectacular.
It keeps coming back to fun factor. The ACTUAL damage dealt is, after a point, immaterial. Standing around unable to deal damage (or do anything else really) is the problem. It's frustrating and detrimental to the gaming experience. And, since the set even when using Rage is by no means the highest damage set, on top of being the most widely resisted damage type, it is not overpowered. This makes the penalty nothing short of capricious and inane. It's far too severe for the power or the set as a whole.
To summarize: Rage incurs a penalty which is out of proportion to the benefit of the power, is frustrating, and is detrimental to the fun of the game. Because this is a GAME, which is meant to be fun, this penalty has no place in the power and needs to be removed.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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In fact Rage brings superstrength up to par with the other sets since it's substandard otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]How is SS substandard?
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I remember quite well and still do to this day as i still see it happen. SS cost a TON of end, and the damage output is realitivly low in comparison to the other powerset.
Yeah it gets a couple of heavy hitters later on and rage.
Big friggin whuptie do! To even be slightly effective playing the character I had to put slots in the damage of those attacks, slots that should have been in the primary defence of a tanker.
But it seems I tend to be in the general minority of people who actually play a tanker to play the game both individually and solo.
So to do damage I ended up taking more damage resulting in many deaths leveling. Then the devs decide to increase my inheritant taunt in my SS attacks. Now it even harder to solo cause now everyone is attracted after one small jab. More deaths.
I got rage, finally able to do modest damage without sacrificing more defencive ability. but it disorents so it has to be pretty much time, when it works i'm fine when it miscalculate and the fight takes longer... more deaths.
It seems like alot of poeple seem to be compaing rage to the hi end players while forgeting the numerous deaths that most tankers take getting to that high end.
NEWS FLASH! High level players ARE powerful, Thier powers are (mostly) MAX sloted and generally with SO or even haminod enhancers. If you had a lv 50 taker with nothing but training enhancements in all his slots, SOMEONE would complain he was better at something they cant do.
don't compare high end till you also factor in the cost to get there. If I hear another player complain about a AT they themselves never walked a level in I feel like I'm gonna explode.
Work you way to the high level, don't have anyone powerlevel you and then see if you feel that the powers you worked for are "too powerful"
It seems that alot of people want tanks to agro the room just by walking in and not be able to deal 1 point of damge so all the blasters/and scrappers can fight villians with no risk to themselves, god what a boring game that would be.
Nemsis lv50 Inv/SS
Arch-Nemsis lv 50 SS/Inv
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It's purely smashing, the most resisted damage type in the game, and its attacks other than Knockout Blow (which recharges very slowly) are very low damage. Even Haymaker isn't anything spectacular.
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Maybe the Brawl Index is completely broken or I didn't calculate right, but according to it; Barrage, Energy Punch, Bonesmasher, and Total Focus do the same damage as Jab, Punch, Haymaker, and Knockout Blow.
I too used to believe the general mumblings that SS is gimp, but after playing with mine for a little while, the idea seems laughable.
The Brawl Index has long been held as to not being the best resource for finding out how much damage a set can do. It doesn't take into account animation times (since the true times aren't fully known), or help find the optimal attack chain.
As far as SS compared to other sets is concerned: having grouped with every secondary available to tankers, my feeling is this: only Ice and Mace are in more need of love. Every other primary, in both the short term and over the long haul, outdamages these three sets, as well as having overall lower endurance costs. Plus, none of them suffer from the 10 second self-root+phase that users of Rage have to deal with.
These are the points that I feel need to be addressed; however, I've long gotten past the point where I believe the devs are listening anymore. It's not because they don't care; it's simply because, in their eyes, they feel that since Rage is a situational power, it should have some sort of penalty. By their numbers, they see plenty of people using Rage; but they are either unaware, or are turning a blind eye, of the bug that allows a SS tanker to avoid the end cost at the end of Rage by stacking it. Because of this, their analysis of the data is skewed.
As long as SS tankers continue to double-stack Rage, the 10 second downtime will never be corrected.
Which is the reason I barely play HC anymore.
The solution appears somewhat simple. All that need be done is to create a non-blockable stun damage that is a unique effect of the Rage power when it ceases. This stun power should not be alleviable nor preventable by inspiration that are presently in use. Needless to say, this unique Stun effect should prevent the use of all inspirations until such time as it the unique stun effect has ceased.
Further stunning effects should not enlengthen the period of this unique stun effect that is yielded by Rage's cessation, an effect which might be mentioned in any future publications of the Game Manual along with other ammendations and additions.
Um... no. That's even worse than what we have now.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Um... no. That's even worse than what we have now.
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Well, alright.
Considering what might be imagined the exhausting nature of Rage, perhaps it should be effective to severely weaken, disorient, and and enhance the accuracy of enemy attacks on the character... sorta like is said in the rulebook. However, if the Stun effect is toned down, so should the power of Rage.
The total power of a Super Strength Tanker should be commeasurate with that of other Tank secondary powers. If Rage doesn't have a fear effect coupled with it, it might. If Rage does not have the effect of adding to normally occuring disorient, knockback, stun powers used by the enRaged Tank, it might. These additions plus the extra damage would justify a more stringent effect upon the Tank.
Not reading this whole thread- Just saw it in the Main Window....
Why isn't the obvious solution to apply the opposite of Rage's buffs, by using Damage and Accuracy DeBuffs? That would also allow us to keep aggro....
Except that our aggro-keeping ability is directly dependent upon our damage output, which besides the mere amount of damage dealt is also dependent upon hitting accurately to deal that damage. Debuff the damage and accuracy and you'll still have people peeling off the tank, unless of course they are reduced to a tauntbot role, which I REPEAT, Issue 3 was supposed to allow us to bypass.
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Um... no. That's even worse than what we have now.
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Well, alright.
Considering what might be imagined the exhausting nature of Rage, perhaps it should be effective to severely weaken, disorient, and and enhance the accuracy of enemy attacks on the character... sorta like is said in the rulebook. However, if the Stun effect is toned down, so should the power of Rage.
The total power of a Super Strength Tanker should be commeasurate with that of other Tank secondary powers. If Rage doesn't have a fear effect coupled with it, it might. If Rage does not have the effect of adding to normally occuring disorient, knockback, stun powers used by the enRaged Tank, it might. These additions plus the extra damage would justify a more stringent effect upon the Tank.
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I don't know what you're trying to say here. Rage has no fear effect and does not enhance the secondary effects of the powerset. Rage actually DOES make the Superstrength powerset commensurate with the other tanker secondaries.
The endurance hit and a defense debuff (much more than we have now) is plenty of a penalty for Rage. The current penalty is far out of proportion with the power's advantages, and is most importantly not fun to deal with.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Except that our aggro-keeping ability is directly dependent upon our damage output, which besides the mere amount of damage dealt is also dependent upon hitting accurately to deal that damage. Debuff the damage and accuracy and you'll still have people peeling off the tank, unless of course they are reduced to a tauntbot role, which I REPEAT, Issue 3 was supposed to allow us to bypass.
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You don't have to do mega damage to keep aggro on you with PunchVoke. If that were the case, I'd have mobs peel off my ice tanker all the time
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The endurance hit and a defense debuff (much more than we have now) is plenty of a penalty for Rage. The current penalty is far out of proportion with the power's advantages, and is most importantly not fun to deal with.
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If you replace the current penalty with something like an end hit and defense debuff, it would have to be pretty harsh on both accounts. Perhaps a 50+% end hit, and I would say something OTHER than a defense debuff. Why would an Invuln tanker care if all of a sudden his defense went to 5%? He still has 90% resists to fall back on....an Ice Tanker who used Rage would be gutted with a defense debuff. I say go with a Resist debuff. Defense debuffs are too easily countered in a group, with powers/buffs, or simply a few Lucks. That would just about make the penalty worthless if all you had to do was pop a CAB and a Luck or two every two minutes and get all that extra damage.
I agree that the forced down time isn't fun. However, if it's replaced with some other negative, it needs to be something that doesn't have the potential of killing the tank off (e.g. massive END reduction causing dropped toggles). It also needs to be something that still allows the tank to do his/her primary job - keep aggro.
So, instead of a 10 seconds down time of "can't do a darn thing but stare at the floor", what about a period of time after Rage goes down where your powers recharge slower. The point of Rage is that you go into a Berserker state and after that are tired from the streneous output, right? So you simply can't react (attack, change toggles, etc.) as fast - sort of a reverse Hasten. To accomplish this, what if your power recharge times doubled for say 15 seconds. You'd still be able to attack to help keep aggro, but not near as fast since you're "tired". Note: All numbers would need testing for balance. I only give them as examples and not necessarily numbers that would work.
Another possiblity is to leave the 10 second down time, but allow non-damage powers to be used such as Taunt. I mean, it doesn't take much energy for me to tell a bunch of Crey they smell like sewer slime or an Outcast that his Momma was a Rikti. While you wait out your forced down time, you might be able to keep the aggro on you.
Just a couple of suggestions.
The resist debuff is the best idea I've heard yet. Like getting hit with a few Council sonic cannons. The recharge reduction would also be acceptable, or at least more acceptable than what we have now.
As far as allowing Taunt during this 10 second downtime, I repeat: not all of us have Taunt, and that is only a partial solution that forces us back into the Tauntbot role that I3 was supposed to help us avoid. The ADHD penalty needs to be completely removed.
Hey, can we at leats get a red name to comment here? At least post a "It'll never change" or something. Anything. Is anyone even hearing this or are we just wasting our collective breath?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Well, to be specific, I want taunt effects to operate.
I'm fine with the can't act thing, mostly, but that only affects me. Even if I die and acquire debt, this is nothing major.
In addition, considering that I regularly slow down my rate of attack or even stop attacking altogether for even longer periods of time for purpose of endurance pacing, it is hardly all that terrible.
My concern is that this 10 seconds is plenty of time for you to lose aggro and have at least one teammate get plastered because you are unable to do anything.
Even if you can't do a legitimate taunt, I'd like auras such as invincibility, chilling embrace, blazing aura, icicles, mud pots and the like to keep their inherent taunt.
Or, perhaps another way to do it, is to enhance the inherent taunt of age attacks above and beyond the base increased damage/increased taunt bit. Then, perhaps, there will be enough taunt left over in that 10 seconds that your team can still act without drawing a wipe.
That's my concern, is the effects to the team, especially a pick up team, a good, regular team would be used to the situation and prepared to handle it. A pick up team could end up getting themselves killed because of a poorly timed use of rage (or, more likely, a use of rage that doesn't take into account the end penalty).
A penalty to just me is good. A penalty to my team for my actions is not something I like.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
I agree with you, Lycanus, on nearly all points.
It comes down to the type of penalty, then. The penalty is not fitting for the power. There is no other power in the game that forces you into inaction. And ten seconds of inaction means ten seconds where you're not having fun. As a game designer this is the one thing you should do your absolute best to avoid, even for 10 seconds; the player of your game not having fun.
Give a penalty to Rage by all means, I've never said it shouldn't have one. Just make sure that I, the player, can still have fun while the penalty hits.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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There is no other power in the game that forces you into inaction.
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Well, actually there is, Phase Shift/Invisibility. Or perhaps more appropriately, Personal Force Field.
This is not to say that a defense drop is not a better penalty, though. After all, it's good enough for Unyielding.
Hi my name is oldman winter I am an ice controller, I do not have a Super strength tanker nor do I plan on having one.
Now my belief is that when rage is over your supposed to be "tired" and at a reduced effectiveness for awhile.
Previous version was to have a disorient right?
However some people weren't always getting the penalty afterwards. So they made it drop all end and thus the toggles.
This gave the "tired" effect and had a a downside to it.
This was believed too harsh so it was changed to not being able to do anything at all for 10secs. Oh yes and moderate end drop.
However this doesnt really make much sense no matter how you look at it.
My point is it should be changed to having the side effect of no end regen for a period. Sorta like after a blaster goes BOOM.
This gives the effect of being "tired" and has a after penalty that isnt too harsh.
You would still be able to fight and taunt and keep defenses up and help your team. Provided you take it easy for abit after rage dies, for fear of running out of end real fast.
The duration of the drain would be adjusted so that you can keep most toggles running while you recover, and still stay in the fight somewhat.
This, IMO, is the best solution for everyone hands down.
No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
It is perfect. 
Thank you for your time and sorry if this has been suggested already as I don't follow the Rage thread. Just never got around to posting my idea.
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There is no other power in the game that forces you into inaction.
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Well, actually there is, Phase Shift/Invisibility. Or perhaps more appropriately, Personal Force Field.
This is not to say that a defense drop is not a better penalty, though. After all, it's good enough for Unyielding.
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I thought about mentioning those, too - but they don't *force* you into inaction. You can switch them on and off at will. Inaction, sure, but at your choice.
Kam
Well, yeah, but if you want to USE the Power, you have to not use any attacks. And you aren't forced to use Rage, either, it's at your choice.
I suppose you could argue that the delayed nature of the penalty means that it's more difficult to predict. But my point was that there ARE Powers that require you not to be able to attack in order to use them. (And note that using PFF in a group could have just as disasterous consequences as using Rage)
The REAL difference is that PFF is defensive, while Rage is offensive. You aren't putting up PFF to increase your damage, you're putting it up to increase your defense. Which, would again, seem to suggest that the most appropriate penalty for Rage would be a defensive one, not an offensive one.
Defense drop'd make sense. If you just went berserk, you're not gonna care about taking a knife to the chest, long's you get to twist the head off anyone you manage to get your hands on.
So! Cut the downtime off it, add a BIG defense debuff to it (most sets are resist sets anyways, defense doesn't matter ta most), and maybe up the damage buff to it a bit more.
Rage should be kind of what you'd expect a Troll ta do if you called his mom a trollop. Totally flips out, ignores the fact that he's getting cut to pieces by machine guns, and then smashes everyone's head like he's sledgehammering watermelons.
Berserkers weren't dangerous cuz they hit hard, they were dangerous cuz they hit hard and had no regard for their own safety.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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Secondly and this is the real deal and final rebuild for all of us, while rage is running we should have a 20% accuracy drop, and yes we should be able to compensate for it with enhancements and powers like focused accuracy. Even though we compensate for it it takes away from other areas in our build, after all look at the endurance needed to run focused accuracy.
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why would i want to WASTE a power selection and slots on focus accuracy? and why would you waste putting acc enhancments in attacks? that's what rage is for.