I play both a invul and fire tank and fire is surley better once you get burn but invul can take a beating fire could never take. But not many players are optimizing I would guess. In that case, it comes down to damage. That massive resistence invul has comes at the price of damage.
The changes to invul and to SS have brokenn many "casual" gamer builds. Why that was even a issue in the change baffles me because what it leads to is cookie-cutter builds which fire suffers from baddly. Almost all the fire tanks I know have the same set of powers with 3 or 4 secondary attacks to change the flavor. However, on the invul side, I see many differences and that set can save you a power pool as well. That extra pool could be speed which would via hasten increase you attack rate 
For the record, set combinations that I think are "un-fun" now include, invul/*, */invul. Reason - end drain. For the same reason SS rage users hate sitting there..I hate not attacking. Pounding the keyboard waiting for enough end to regen so I can taunt sucks. Oh but I could slot end reduction right? No one should have to slot end reduction post 35 for non-attack powers. If you are, then why not just drop the end requirement and take away a damn slot. I dont mind it early in the build but to be efficient and keep fighting..no thanks.
All stuff that has been hashed out before. Fire, no matter what AT, gets that DoT which helps keep the DPS up and because hasten is not really needed, the end drain is not so bad. The resistences are similar from early to mid game, its only after 35 or so that invul starts to take over in resistences and defense.
Hope they give the SS players their rage back. All this forcing to the middle crap is getting a bit tired. Along with the everything 40+ seeming to have psy attacks too. Bastages!
[ QUOTE ]
For the record, set combinations that I think are "un-fun" now include, invul/*, */invul. Reason - end drain. For the same reason SS rage users hate sitting there..I hate not attacking. Pounding the keyboard waiting for enough end to regen so I can taunt sucks
[/ QUOTE ]
That is weird on my Ice/ice tanker my taunt takes no end at all to cast.
Dirges
Sorry..was kinda going over the top there. To be precise, I pound keys to get my toggles back up then hit the taunt key 
Hearing the vacum cleaner shut down just scares the bejesus out me.
In actuality the Fire Blast set is pretty poor. I've tested it and it can't even match Electric Blast on single target damage, and its special effect is just DOT, which sucks in CoH
because it's random and which thus makes it a very limited set.
And the end drain for both Invul and Boxing Strength -- er, Superstrength -- is indeed too high, especially considering the poor damage of Superstrength.
But that's not what this discussion's about, it's about Rage. Which is currently the game-killing power for the SS tank.
Rage IS NOT FUN. The forced downtime needs to go away.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
have to get your damage up to at least +220%. Even if Rage was +100% like Build Up it still wouldn't get you to the cap with five SOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanker Build Up (at least the Energy Melee version) is +80%, not +100. I determined this accidentally when testing the damage of Energy Transfer when I first got the power. I had only an accuracy enhancement in ET.
Unless there is something special about ET, EM Build Up is only 80%.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
For the record, set combinations that I think are "un-fun" now include, invul/*, */invul. Reason - end drain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, my Broadsword/Invul Scrapper is probably more fun to play now that he was pre-nerf, and since I payed better attention to the numbers game he's actually tougher (I wasn't perma Unstoppable) and got to drop the tele-combat style, which I hated. Has always been and remains my favorite toon.
My Invul/EM tank is an absolute blast. I designed him with the heretical intention of making him a Scrank, and I've succeeded wonderfully. While I by no means dish out the DPS or DPE of a true Scrapper I am a heluva a lot tougher than one and repeatedly draw notice for my ability to take down big foes one-on-one.
12 +4 minions? Yeah, I'll need to meter my endurance on the tank. 6 +4 minions? No problem. +4 boss? Breeze.
So while I can't speak for Inv/SS, it seems very overgeneralizing to say */Inv/* is "un-fun".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Well Invul isnt the topic but... I love invul, short of Unstoppable all the powers are useful and work well. SStr how is the yuck and I wish I hadnt deleted my level 20 Invul/EM tank inorder to remake him for as an Invul/SS with the same name....
Rather than a respec the devs should just let us rechoose our secondary power pool....... I know, never gonna happen but at this point thats what I want for x-mas.
SStr runs too high an endurance cost for too little damage then you have to deal with Rage.... Invuls toggles may be more spendy than other tank toggles, I really cant say. But if thats the case then all I can say is bummer... but at least Invul works well where SStr does not, for its cost ^^
[ QUOTE ]
And the end drain for both Invul and Boxing Strength -- er, Superstrength -- is indeed too high, especially considering the poor damage of Superstrength.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand the frustrations of Invuln tankers, but why all the exaggerations?
Super Strength is not a low damage set. Ice and Mace ARE low damage sets. True, Super Strength comes in after that, but there are plenty of attacks in Super Strength which are FAR more damaging than anything in Ice/Mace (Knockout Blow comes to mind immediately...Ice doesn't have ANYTHING even remotely close to that in damage).
Invuln does not cost more endurance than other sets. In fact, it is the LEAST endurance-costing power set (Ice being the next lowest, then Stone, with Fire being the most expensive). This is for toggle-costs. The only exception is TI, which costs marginally more than Frozen Armor from Ice and Rock Armor from Stone (but still costs less than Fire Shield from Fire). Add in the fact that many of Invuln's defenses are auto.
Instead of asking the devs why you feel your set(s) are lower than you'd like, ask yourself how you compare to the other sets along the same criteria: Is your set(s) better than the others, or more cost-effective, or more damaging? Put yourself in my position.....I see a lot of posts about the ineffectiveness of Rage and how crappy it is, and yet see posts about people doing 600+ damage as a SS tanker, and wonder how they can even post such contradictory statements. I'm a bit miffed at the moment, so please don't flame me too much (my fire defense is a bit low, being an Ice tanker and all).
It's not about the damage of Rage. Well, it is, in a way, but only secondarily, at least for me.
Rage is simply not fun right now.
It has gotten to the point, after several more bad experiences with Rage in teams, that I have determined I'll only use my tanker for soloing from here on out, unless I'm teamed with other tanks and scrappers that I know don't need to depend upon my protection. This sucks. It goes against the whole philosophy of being a tank. But it's either that, or watch my teammates get slaughtered as I stand by helplessly.
I'm not a tauntbot. I refuse that role. I don't even have taunt. In order to keep aggro I am required to deliver a constant reliable stream of damage and (relatively) lots of it. I can't do that level of damage without Rage (both damage and accuracy buffs), and now, with the FORCED downtime of the power, I can't do it WITH Rage either. As such, whenever I get the urge for the crushing impacts of tankery goodness, I log in and comb Portal Corp's parking lot for a while solo, where I don't have to worry about the rest of my team dying because of the stupidity of the Rage penalty. This gets boring fast, however, and it's rapidly approaching the point where, even solo, the frustration of periodically sitting there whacking buttons ineffectually is steadily beginning to outweigh my urge for the crushing impacts of tankery goodness.
Rage needs to be made fun again by removing the enforced inability to effect anything but yourself, or Cryptic will have soon removed a paying customer from their game. This isn't meant as a threat, just a statement of fact. My tank was my favorite character. I've not enjoyed any character more than I did her, and I still don't. And if the changes to my tank are making me not enjoy playing her... what does that say about the rest of the game?
Balance is all well and good, but it should not come at the expense of fun. It's a game, which we play to have fun, not to deal with arbitrary penalties. And yes, it is completely arbitrary. Was Super Strength anywhere close to imbalanced? Even with Rage? Take a look at Fire tankers before you answer. Or any scrapper. The correct answer is no, it was not. And if Rage is made fun again and the ADD syndrome removed, it still will not be imbalanced.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
It's not about the damage of Rage. Well, it is, in a way, but only secondarily, at least for me.
Rage is simply not fun right now
It has gotten to the point, after several more bad experiences with Rage in teams, that I have determined I'll only use my tanker for soloing from here on out, unless I'm teamed with other tanks and scrappers that I know don't need to depend upon my protection. This sucks. It goes against the whole philosophy of being a tank. But it's either that, or watch my teammates get slaughtered as I stand by helplessly.
I'm not a tauntbot. I refuse that role. I don't even have taunt. In order to keep aggro I am required to deliver a constant reliable stream of damage and (relatively) lots of it. I can't do that level of damage without Rage (both damage and accuracy buffs), and now, with the FORCED downtime of the power, I can't do it WITH Rage either. As such, whenever I get the urge for the crushing impacts of tankery goodness, I log in and comb Portal Corp's parking lot for a while solo, where I don't have to worry about the rest of my team dying because of the stupidity of the Rage penalty. This gets boring fast, however, and it's rapidly approaching the point where, even solo, the frustration of periodically sitting there whacking buttons ineffectually is steadily beginning to outweigh my urge for the crushing impacts of tankery goodness.
Rage needs to be made fun again by removing the enforced inability to effect anything but yourself, or Cryptic will have soon removed a paying customer from their game. This isn't meant as a threat, just a statement of fact. My tank was my favorite character. I've not enjoyed any character more than I did her, and I still don't. And if the changes to my tank are making me not enjoy playing her... what does that say about the rest of the game?
Balance is all well and good, but it should not come at the expense of fun. It's a game, which we play to have fun, not to deal with arbitrary penalties. And yes, it is completely arbitrary. Was Super Strength anywhere close to imbalanced? Even with Rage? Take a look at Fire tankers before you answer. Or any scrapper. The correct answer is no, it was not. And if Rage is made fun again and the ADD syndrome removed, it still will not be imbalanced.
[/ QUOTE ]
A tank without Taunt IS a solo build. If you have been teaming with folks, you have by no means been even close to average at the role a tank is supposed to have. The modest amounts of agro you get from being a punchvoker (which is a pretty new idea in this game) is nothign compared to the agro the blasters, khelds or scrappers will generate beating on the mobs-All have much higher damage curves. Get taunt and use it-or please stop compaining that your toon is broken. it works great-you're jsut asking it to do somethign it can't do unless you use the tools they gave it to do the job. Sheeesh, might as well spec my blaster by slotting only secondaries then complain on the boards about how Cryptic sucks because controllers out damage me! 
Oh just shut up. Don't bring your narrow-minded 'tanks must have taunt to perform' mindset into this thread. The whole reason punch-voke was introduced was so that those people that did not want to take provoke and/or taunt did not have to do so. Between punchvoke and the ability to slot primary abilities with taunt enhancers, there's very actual little need for Taunt other than getting the very occasional stray.
i am so up set with timed wolf misison i kn ew shaodow hunter was timed but then got my toon to the frist one worked so hard at it. only to be so dispointed, i did even try to do it. and i let the next one time out. it realy sucks that the wolf misisons are timed.and a timed av thats nuts. its hard enogth gettinga good team to trake out shadow hunter i wont even try. i am not injoyingb this game anymore, and i played it from the day it can=me availble i paly nioght and day many hors at a time. i am so so upset with it now. i might go to wow like so many others have all ready done.
[ QUOTE ]
i am so up set with timed wolf misison i kn ew shaodow hunter was timed but then got my toon to the frist one worked so hard at it. only to be so dispointed, i did even try to do it. and i let the next one time out. it realy sucks that the wolf misisons are timed.and a timed av thats nuts. its hard enogth gettinga good team to trake out shadow hunter i wont even try. i am not injoyingb this game anymore, and i played it from the day it can=me availble i paly nioght and day many hors at a time. i am so so upset with it now. i might go to wow like so many others have all ready done.
[/ QUOTE ]Then go and take your pathetic typing skills with you!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am so up set with timed wolf misison i kn ew shaodow hunter was timed but then got my toon to the frist one worked so hard at it. only to be so dispointed, i did even try to do it. and i let the next one time out. it realy sucks that the wolf misisons are timed.and a timed av thats nuts. its hard enogth gettinga good team to trake out shadow hunter i wont even try. i am not injoyingb this game anymore, and i played it from the day it can=me availble i paly nioght and day many hors at a time. i am so so upset with it now. i might go to wow like so many others have all ready done.
[/ QUOTE ]Then go and take your pathetic typing skills with you!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha! What typing skills? Don't you mean, typing attempts?
[ QUOTE ]
A tank without Taunt IS a solo build. If you have been teaming with folks, you have by no means been even close to average at the role a tank is supposed to have. The modest amounts of agro you get from being a punchvoker (which is a pretty new idea in this game) is nothign compared to the agro the blasters, khelds or scrappers will generate beating on the mobs-All have much higher damage curves. Get taunt and use it-or please stop compaining that your toon is broken. it works great-you're jsut asking it to do somethign it can't do unless you use the tools they gave it to do the job. Sheeesh, might as well spec my blaster by slotting only secondaries then complain on the boards about how Cryptic sucks because controllers out damage me!
[/ QUOTE ]
Completely false. If YOU can't control aggro without Taunt, that sounds like a fault of you, not other tankers. I do just fine without Taunt, and I am definitely a team tank. You don't rely on just Punchvoke to do your job...all tanker builds I can think of have AoE powers that can be slotted with taunt enhancers. Ice primary has 3 AoE powers that can be slotted with taunt enhancers, and 2 of them are auto-hit (meaning I don't have to worry if the mob is +20 levels above or whatever...it will always hit him). Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit. Stone Armor has Mud Pots, Fire has Burn and Blazing Aura, and Consume. Those are just the primaries...if you add in the secondaries, any attack or effect can add taunt enhancers. With all of that, you STILL seem to think that a single power can be that much more effective than all of your other powers?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am so up set with timed wolf misison i kn ew shaodow hunter was timed but then got my toon to the frist one worked so hard at it. only to be so dispointed, i did even try to do it. and i let the next one time out. it realy sucks that the wolf misisons are timed.and a timed av thats nuts. its hard enogth gettinga good team to trake out shadow hunter i wont even try. i am not injoyingb this game anymore, and i played it from the day it can=me availble i paly nioght and day many hors at a time. i am so so upset with it now. i might go to wow like so many others have all ready done.
[/ QUOTE ]Then go and take your pathetic typing skills with you!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha! What typing skills? Don't you mean, typing attempts?
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, I was simply trying to show some mercy.
[ QUOTE ]
i am so up set with timed wolf misison i kn ew shaodow hunter was timed but then got my toon to the frist one worked so hard at it. only to be so dispointed, i did even try to do it. and i let the next one time out. it realy sucks that the wolf misisons are timed.and a timed av thats nuts. its hard enogth gettinga good team to trake out shadow hunter i wont even try. i am not injoyingb this game anymore, and i played it from the day it can=me availble i paly nioght and day many hors at a time. i am so so upset with it now. i might go to wow like so many others have all ready done.
[/ QUOTE ]
UniqueDragon, is that you?
Kam
[ QUOTE ]
Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, not to interrupt the everyone has huge powers that can do stuff idea, but from what I can understand about it, Invincibility only gives a pretty modest acc buff.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, not to interrupt the everyone has huge powers that can do stuff idea, but from what I can understand about it, Invincibility only gives a pretty modest acc buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hate to say it, but what crack is that guy smoking? I have 5ToHit SO's in Inv IN ADDITION TO 1 or 2 Acc SO's on my attacks, and I still miss. Automatic my @$$ymtote
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, not to interrupt the everyone has huge powers that can do stuff idea, but from what I can understand about it, Invincibility only gives a pretty modest acc buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hate to say it, but what crack is that guy smoking? I have 5ToHit SO's in Inv IN ADDITION TO 1 or 2 Acc SO's on my attacks, and I still miss. Automatic my @$$ymtote
[/ QUOTE ]
Invincibility is auto-hit, meaning the Invincibility power *itself* will not miss hitting any mob in range. It does not mean that your *other* powers are auto-hit.
Kam
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit.
[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, not to interrupt the everyone has huge powers that can do stuff idea, but from what I can understand about it, Invincibility only gives a pretty modest acc buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
His point was that it also taunts --which it does -- and that it auto-hits *for itself* -- which it does. He wasn't saying that Invincibility makes your *other* powers auto-hit.
Edit: Well, it doesn't any more, anyway.
Autohits and taunting are all beside the point.
I'm NOT going to let this die. At higher levels Rage is critical to a superstrength tank to do his job properly. Currently it doesn't do that job properly. The current incarnation of Rage is not fun. It is annoying and frustrating to the player, both solo and in teams.
The inability to affect anything but yourself needs to be removed.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
Autohits and taunting are all beside the point.
I'm NOT going to let this die. At higher levels Rage is critical to a superstrength tank to do his job properly. Currently it doesn't do that job properly. The current incarnation of Rage is not fun. It is annoying and frustrating to the player, both solo and in teams.
The inability to affect anything but yourself needs to be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
/agreed
But is anyone listening...or will that magical yellow lock soon appear without as much as a red name dropping a one liner.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A tank without Taunt IS a solo build. If you have been teaming with folks, you have by no means been even close to average at the role a tank is supposed to have. The modest amounts of agro you get from being a punchvoker (which is a pretty new idea in this game) is nothign compared to the agro the blasters, khelds or scrappers will generate beating on the mobs-All have much higher damage curves. Get taunt and use it-or please stop compaining that your toon is broken. it works great-you're jsut asking it to do somethign it can't do unless you use the tools they gave it to do the job. Sheeesh, might as well spec my blaster by slotting only secondaries then complain on the boards about how Cryptic sucks because controllers out damage me!
[/ QUOTE ]
Completely false. If YOU can't control aggro without Taunt, that sounds like a fault of you, not other tankers. I do just fine without Taunt, and I am definitely a team tank. You don't rely on just Punchvoke to do your job...all tanker builds I can think of have AoE powers that can be slotted with taunt enhancers. Ice primary has 3 AoE powers that can be slotted with taunt enhancers, and 2 of them are auto-hit (meaning I don't have to worry if the mob is +20 levels above or whatever...it will always hit him). Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit. Stone Armor has Mud Pots, Fire has Burn and Blazing Aura, and Consume. Those are just the primaries...if you add in the secondaries, any attack or effect can add taunt enhancers. With all of that, you STILL seem to think that a single power can be that much more effective than all of your other powers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Playing my Kheldian in Nova form I have discovered that in the low game at least taunt IS neccessary. I've grouped with atleast 10 different tanks in my 6-18 levels and only one ONE was able to keep agro off me, guess what, she had taunt and used it. At level 16 I grouped with a tank who was level 20 we went into his mission and after letting him bash the level 20-21 bad guys several times I started blasting his targets, unSKed I pulled agro off him and well of course went splat (my other option is to just sit and watch, oh joy).
Now I dont know many tanks, actually I dont know any tanks who put taunt enhancers in Invincability or Mudpots or Burn ect. and seriously by the time you get to 50 (me personally anyhow) you have power slots that you really dont know what to fill with. I ended up takeing 2 travel powers. Theres enough other bad powers in just about every pool that you should be able to make room for Taunt.
Honestly I dont know why you wouldnt take it if not to just make life easier. Ranged taunt saves you loads of running around which dureing that time you can loose other agro. Now I'm not saying you HAVE to take it, I'm sure some ATs can get away with not haveing Taunt, Fire and Ice tanks come to mind since they seem to have more AoE that taunts but Mace, Axe, SS, SA, SM, Invul. Come on guys be realistic, especially in the early game, save your teams some grief, take the power and use it. If you find later on that you no longer need it you can respec out of it but I gaurantee haveing it in the early game will make life easier and all the squishys love you more.
Edit: Consider this, not all mobs will close into melee with you and follow you all over the map while you "herd" as you move around to punchvoke or use your AoE taunt in your shields you WILL loose mobs who only use ranged attacks. Snipers for example, from my expierance NEVER move.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I started a fire/fire tank recently.
Now, I'm not too high level yet, but I team with an Invulnerability/SS tanker occasionally.
Not only are my defensive toggles cheaper (fire shield and plasma shield compared to TI plus unyielding), but my attacks seem cheaper too. And you know something, my fire tanker only has two attacks currently but I keep stealing aggro from the SS tanker with provoke-punch, and the SS tanker has twice as many attacks (which may also be a cause of the endurance problem). I also end fights with twice the endurance he does (and that's assuming I don't use Consume).
Conculsions: First, SS doesn't seem to be able to keep up damage-wise at low level against fire. I assume this will only get worse. And that's the fire secondary. SS also costs far more endurance than fire, which if it can't keep up, just isn't fair. If Rage were too be able to be used more often, it might be more equal. Secondly, I now think TI costs too much endurance. It doesn't do as much as Fire Shield, but Fire Shield seems to be more cost effective. (TI is only smash/lethal resistance. Fire Shield gives about as much smash/lethal resitance AND fire/cold resistance AND disorient resistance).
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the problem here is not Invuln or SS, but Fire. Every set with Fire in its name in CoH (with the exception of blaster fire secondary) is very, very, very good indeed.
Fire Blast- AOE DOOM
Fire Imps- I mean 'Firey Control', dont I?
Firey Melee- Woot! AOE AND Good Single-Target!
Firey Armour- Burn, Baby, Burn. And as you said, broader and cheaper toggles. And more 'utility' than Invuln.
Dev's say *YES* to Fire Toons!
[/ QUOTE ]
Fire Manipulation? *crickets*