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SS has horrible DPS , horrible End cost, and even with Rage I find the Damage lack luster.
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I have a question...
I am honestly curious about the damage issue here. My main is a SS tank. My alts are a variety of other ATs. My other tank is a much lower level than my main, so I don't have much of a point of reference, damage-wise.
Is SS really that bad? When I use Rage, I am able to one-shot yellow-con mobs or drop orange-con mobs to somewhere between 5 and 10% health (again, with 1 hit). I don't have any other characters who can do this. At best, my others can take a white-con down in 2 hits. I have had other players see me use knockout blow ( sigh, I can't stop calling it uppercut...) on an enemy and the reaction is ofter "OMG!" "Wow!" and such.
I don't find that underpowered, personally. Sure my other attacks drop off fairly drastically after that, but I still find my damage to be quite good. As I said though, I don't have much to compare to, as I don't usually watch other people's damage.
Est sularis oth Mithas
I suspect the poster you are replying too meant SDPD or Sustained dps. Having 1 or 2 slow cycling and high end costing attacks provides you with less SDPS than having 6 meduim speed attacks that you can regularly cycle through.
Consider how long it would take to 1-shot 2 yellow minions, then consider somethig along the lines of a MA scrapper can take them out in 4 hits in about 6 seconds.
/2p
[ QUOTE ]
Rage needs to have more drawbacks.
Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.
How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.
This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.
[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, I want a pony. A white shetland pony. With a big red bow and rainbow stickers on its heiny. 
With great power comes great responsibility. With great responsibility comes great booze!
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
[ QUOTE ]
This game is still focused on damage = experience = leveling, until that changes reducing the damage on SS Tanks in this manner is obscene.
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Maybe that is what you decided that the game is focussed on.
For a great many of us the game is still about teamwork, wildly fun fights, interesting and diverse characters, costumes, adventures, and background.
If, indeed, you have decided that the game's primary focus is xp per second, then .... bugger off and stop trying to warp the game to suit your needs.
Get yourself to level 50 on some speed levelling toon and go away. Seriously.
If you think that a Tanker needs to compete in xp per second with a Scrapper then you simply don't appreciate the game for what it really is.
Thank you chick that is exactly what i was trying to elude to. Take Energy Melee vs SS and its no contest. Even with perma Haste SS is dreadfully slow versus Stone Melee, Energy Melee, and Battle Axe. I know that a fellow Stone melee/Invul tank i was pared with was doing attacks in 150/230s in his base attacks and the highest attack he was doing 380 with an overall line of damage 1000 damage. Now my SS tank hits averages of 210 when rage is popped EXCEPT with FS which does around 170 (this is all to lvl 52 Hydramen) and KO blow does 460 damage which equals out a line of 1050. Problem is after my one line I then have to use Haymaker and Punch almost exclusively while Ko recharges while the same stone tank has gone through his second line. SS has a great openning but a dreadfully slow pace and to make matters worse the attacks are END hoggy. Running All three of my Armors and an End redux in all of my attacks save KO blow I can blow through my end superfast. Atleast with SS/INVul i have yet to see a build that does not have Six slotted Conserve Power because a Six Slotted Stamina is not enough. I would really be interest to know how many tanks are forced to carry an Absurd ammount of Cabs (maybe if TBS were buyable it would be a diffirent story).
Granted there are ppl in the game that don't play purely to level up, but regardless of that fact whenever that green arrow appears and fireworks go off there is a great deal of excitement with it.
Look at my sigs...I mean I have a fire/fire blaster and Inv/SS...both of which have plenty(Almost all the story arc badges)
You do know how I play let alone how I level.
If you get a contact that tells you that you can't get more missions or another contact until a certain level, then what is the objective? You can't get all of the badges in the game unless you reach level goals. People can't experience all the content in this game until level requirments are met.
I am not saying that this game is ALL about leveling, but I am saying this game is focused on leveling.
This game is not a chat room.
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For a great many of us the game is still about teamwork, wildly fun fights, interesting and diverse characters, costumes, adventures, and background.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are experiences that you can have in Atlas Park and Galaxy City, but there is so much more to see and do that,...here comes the shocker, is not unlocked or available until you level up enough.
Don't put words in my mouth I never stated I wanted a tank to do the damage of a scrapper. No matter what version of rage is run tank damage is still under scrappers.
Trying to stay on point of this thread.
The current penalty on Rage is dumb. If it ment to be situational then increase the recharge.
Malcom, see you in Pvp. Seriously.
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Malcom, see you in Pvp. Seriously
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Not solo, you won't. The game is not designed to support solo ATs vs solo ATs. Characters are most interesting and balanced in groups and a SS Tanker, doing his job in a group, does not need as much damage as he does now even.
So I just tried Rage in a full 8 man team against level 53 Freaks.
I used Rage as normal, stacking it. Did decent damage (nothing to write home about, but enough to keep aggro on me), but was only breaking triple digits on two attacks.
You should have seen all the damage flying around though. Because of this, and this is a phenomenon I've noticed before, even with Invincibility going, numerous times the Tank Slicers and the LTs would peel off and go after the damage sources, but would be brought back by my punch-voke before they could get too far.
Then Rage went down, as it inevitably does. Two Tank Slicers on me held for a couple seconds, then turned and ran. I followed, trying to wave at them to notice me, helpless to do anything as they proceeded to each hit the blaster one time and plant him in the dirt.
After this I decided to screw it and run without Rage. This worked fine until all that damage flying around started scattering enemies. Then my own pitiful damage (between barely breaking 200 with KO Blow, down to 42 with Jab) was insufficient to pull the group back on me in its entirety, creating more danger for the team. Also, Rage is crucial for its accuracy bonus. I can't generate aggro if I can't hit, and oftentimes I find myself going into strings of misses relying only on Invincibility, especially against anything over +3. I NEED that accruracy buff on Rage in order to reliably generate aggro and do my job.
The problem was only solved when an Ice/Storm controller came aboard. How useless do I feel right now, do you think?
Supposedly Issue 3 was supposed to fix the "tauntbot" syndrome and allow us to do our jobs by actually DOING them rather than insulting the enemy's mother. Yet now I find I'm required more than ever to be a tauntbot simply to try and keep aggro while Rage drops. I'm not even sure it would, although testing by other tankers leads me to believe it would. That only makes this worse. We're supposedly no longer tauntbots, yet as Superstrength we are more than ever required to be so.
I keep returning to this point. RAGE IS NOT FUN. It's not fun solo because it's frustrating to be stuck jabbing buttons madly and ineffectually for what seems like much longer than 10 seconds, but it's not really fun either to avoid using Rage and do stupidly low damage. At the same time it's not fun to team because you'll know that whether you use Rage or not you're going to have trouble being a tank like you're supposed to be.
This needs to be changed and soon, or my tank will be going on the shelf with my blaster.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Main Entry: 1rage
Pronunciation: 'rAj
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin rabia, from Latin rabies rage, madness, from rabere to be mad; akin to Sanskrit rabhas violence
1 a : violent and uncontrolled anger b : a fit of violent wrath c archaic : INSANITY
2 : violent action (as of wind or sea)
3 : an intense feeling : PASSION
4 : a fad pursued with intense enthusiasm <was all the rage>
Above is websters definition of rage.
IMO when you go into a fit of rage, you use a lot of energy and adreniline, thus you can only handle it for so long and when you run out of energy, you become tired and weak. So you would only go into rage, if your life depended on it, or someone elses, like in the real world.
I do agree however that the penality for using it is too great, but I can understand why they've changed it.
To Sable Phoenix I say /agreed
And to xMSGx I say... Its just a name and the powers function in the game should not be defined by a name in a matter that makes it no fun to use.
Perhaps buffs like Aim should make all your characters attacks behaive like sniper attacks, increaseing the casting time so that you are actually aiming and allowing you to be interupted if your hit.
And Parry should make you wait for the enemy to actually attack and then you try and parry the incomeing attack.
And, and, and....
My two cents-rages 10 sec downtime is a fine penalty. In order to allow a tank to do his or her job, the expiration of rage should culminate with a massive PBAE taunt. following the train all of the "logic" thread in here, if I was a SS tanker raging right smack in the midst of a group of foes doing greatly increased damage, then I would think when they saw me slump down tired at the end of my rage and put my hands on my kness (metaphorically), they might preferentially choose to gang attack me! Woudlnt that solve the issue here?
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Thats funny....Regen pretty much undermines the Scrapper Primaries and Makes a scrapper a tank......
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If you think a regen scrapper can substute for a tank... especially in a thread full of invul tankers... then I am sorry. I am sorry because you have no idea how to play a tank. You have no idea of your limits and how massively you can overshadow any Scrapper at doing what a Tanker is good at.
Can someone substitute a Scrapper in where a Tanker does and have it work? Sure. That doesn't make it as good. I play Scrappers. I play an invulnerable Tanker. I play with some rocking Tankers.
Don't spread misinformation.
</hijack>
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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To Sable Phoenix I say /agreed
And to xMSGx I say... Its just a name and the powers function in the game should not be defined by a name in a matter that makes it no fun to use.
Perhaps buffs like Aim should make all your characters attacks behaive like sniper attacks, increaseing the casting time so that you are actually aiming and allowing you to be interupted if your hit.
And Parry should make you wait for the enemy to actually attack and then you try and parry the incomeing attack.
And, and, and....
[/ QUOTE ]
I was only trying to give my perspective on maybe how the devs think. I do agree that the penality is too great for the power, even hastes end drain when it wears off sucks.
It looks to me, reading the posts, that the biggest users of Rage are SS tanks. That seems to be because we don't do enough damage without it.
So, it seems that a reasonable fix would be to just increase SS damage, and leave Rage the way it is, or nerf it even a bit more, making it non-perma. That would seem to solve most of the issues.
1: SS tanks wouldn't have to try and run it perma as our damage would now be equal to SS+Rage.
2: It would become a situational power like the devs wanted.
Any comments? And if it seems like this ends up being a good idea why haven't the devs considered it?
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It looks to me, reading the posts, that the biggest users of Rage are SS tanks. That seems to be because we don't do enough damage without it.
[/ QUOTE ]It's also because they're the only archetype and powerset that have access to it...
Rage is just flat-out not a fun power anymore, and has far too many drawbacks. Hasten has one cost, while Rage has four, and all of them are more drastic.
I don't think the attack-pause is fun, but if the devs really have their hearts set on it, I doubt that will go away. At the very least, the defense debuff and the initial endurance cost should be removed.
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It looks to me, reading the posts, that the biggest users of Rage are SS tanks. That seems to be because we don't do enough damage without it.
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correct me if i'm wrong, but the ONLY users of rage are SS tanks...
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My two cents-rages 10 sec downtime is a fine penalty. In order to allow a tank to do his or her job, the expiration of rage should culminate with a massive PBAE taunt. following the train all of the "logic" thread in here, if I was a SS tanker raging right smack in the midst of a group of foes doing greatly increased damage, then I would think when they saw me slump down tired at the end of my rage and put my hands on my kness (metaphorically), they might preferentially choose to gang attack me! Woudlnt that solve the issue here?
[/ QUOTE ]
Now THAT idea is frikkin' key.
Hope a dev gets a chance to see that idea. Being that the biggest complaint thusfar has been that the 10 sec downtime is enough to loose aggro in a team situation, having the rage expire with a large PBAoE taunt would (presumably) solve that problem.
great idea.
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It looks to me, reading the posts, that the biggest users of Rage are SS tanks. That seems to be because we don't do enough damage without it.
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I think it's probably because SS is the only set that has Rage... 
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I think it's probably because SS is the only set that has Rage...
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I think i should have a second cup of caffeine before posting.
The SS/Rage thing was obvious and i spent time going through the pages looking. Definitely blonde moment.
Doesn't change the analysis though. UP the damage of SS, and make rage truly situational. Everyone wins. and then this thread can stop.
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Thank you chick that is exactly what i was trying to elude to. Take Energy Melee vs SS and its no contest. Even with perma Haste SS is dreadfully slow versus Stone Melee, Energy Melee, and Battle Axe. I know that a fellow Stone melee/Invul tank i was pared with was doing attacks in 150/230s in his base attacks and the highest attack he was doing 380 with an overall line of damage 1000 damage. Now my SS tank hits averages of 210 when rage is popped EXCEPT with FS which does around 170 (this is all to lvl 52 Hydramen) and KO blow does 460 damage which equals out a line of 1050. Problem is after my one line I then have to use Haymaker and Punch almost exclusively while Ko recharges while the same stone tank has gone through his second line. SS has a great openning but a dreadfully slow pace and to make matters worse the attacks are END hoggy. Running All three of my Armors and an End redux in all of my attacks save KO blow I can blow through my end superfast. Atleast with SS/INVul i have yet to see a build that does not have Six slotted Conserve Power because a Six Slotted Stamina is not enough. I would really be interest to know how many tanks are forced to carry an Absurd ammount of Cabs (maybe if TBS were buyable it would be a diffirent story).
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Rage is better than what any of you suspect and I do believe it is the defining power of SS. A properly slotted rage allows for great versatility in the SS and Invuln Line. Currently my rage is slotted 3 Recharge 3 To Hit Buff.
If you are slotting ANY of your attacks with ACC SO's then you are wasting slots.
I can hit +9's consistently with NO acc slots not to mention MOG'd and Unstoppable PP's consistently.
.
If you are slotting any of your attacks with MORE than 4 DMG SO's you are wasting slots.
My single target Kill Rate is just as fast as a dark scrapper (no inspirations) I even did a test with a friend...a 44 Dark/reg Scrapper and me 44 inv/SS tank. vs. 2 49 Death Mages. I would argue that I killed mine first but the one he fought blew himself up at the same time I killed mine.
Rage allows me to put 1 Recharge and 1 End Reduction in each of my attacks (I don't put them in Flurry though). This allows me to expend less endurance and have attacks available to me faster.
The attacks I have are:
Jab
AS
KOB
Hurl
FS
Flurry
If you stick to that 4 DMG SO's caps your damage (with rage stacked, single rage it is 5) and not putting any ACC SO slots in any attacks you can then play around with the secondary effects of your attacks....I.E. Hurl, you can put 2 Range Enhancements in it etc. etc. etc.....or decrease endurance cost, increase attack rate, taunt duration etc.etc..OR...you can just 4 Slot all your attacks for Damage and save your extra two slots and put those slots to use in your invuln line.....like slotting TI, US , Invince all with one End Reduction.....
Rage gives you the ability to really utilize slot configurations, reaching the dmg cap with smallest amount of slots possible, and giving you accuracy that is UNMATCHED (well that I've seen).
all this for a measily 25 End cost and 10 sec down time (which in that down time i press my self activation toggles i.e. dull pain, haste, do a little of running around (invince is good aggroer) and im back to fighting....i have noticed however the -def seems to be a little more than 5%.....
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all this for a measily 25 End cost and 10 sec down time (which in that down time i press my self activation toggles i.e. dull pain, haste, do a little of running around (invince is good aggroer) and im back to fighting....i have noticed however the -def seems to be a little more than 5%.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually you're incorrect about one thing, the aggroing part of Invincibility doesn't do squat during those 10 seconds. (Easy enough to test on a grey con - stand next to it without aggroing it, use rage, wait til it runs out and activate invincibility. You'll notice that invinc won't aggro them til you get your attacking ability back.)
This little fact is actually the ONLY reason I'm respeccing out of rage as soon as I can, I don't really mind that much not being able to attack or taunt, but being completely unable to use even invincibility for aggro control during this downtime isn't working for me.
Warning! Long post with mind-numbing numbers ahead...
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Rage is better than what any of you suspect and I do believe it is the defining power of SS. A properly slotted rage allows for great versatility in the SS and Invuln Line. Currently my rage is slotted 3 Recharge 3 To Hit Buff...
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Actually, your system of stacked Rage isn't as good as you think. It ends up being virtually identical to normal perma-Rage with some To Hit buffs in it and your attacks 6-slotted for damage. Don't get me wrong, I think Rage is an excellent damage boost, but your method of slotting just isn't any better than normal non-stacked Rage. With the three Recharges and three To Hit Buffs that you have slotted (assuming perma-hasten), Rage isn't permanently stacked. After the first 90 seconds of single Rage when you first activate it, out of every 90 seconds Rage will be stacked for 30, single for 50, and down with zero damage for 10.
Further, because you have less damage slots in your attacks you are only at the 400% damage cap 33.3% of the time (assuming +2 green SOs). 55% of the time, when Rage isn't stacked, you are doing about 324% damage (again, assuming +2 greens). The other 11% of the time you are doing ZERO damage.
Now, what does that mean you're doing overall? With perma-Hasten and 3 Recharge and 3 To Hit Buffs in Rage, you will be doing ~313% damage overall. That's 87% below the cap.
Now, that didn't take into account you slotting a recharge in your attacks so that you can attack faster. So, let's factor that in. Again, assuming perma-Hasten, adding a single Recharge enhancement in all of your attacks means you have improved their recharge by 19.4% (because of diminishing returns on Recharge enhancements since you already have Hasten reducing it) which means you will increase the effectiveness of your powers by 19.4% of the total. That is much better than improving the base like adding Damage SOs does. So, an increase of 19.4% of your 313% overall damage comes out to 373% overall damage.
So, with the 3/3 method of slotting, your overall damage is 373% after attacking 19.4% more times with an improved endurance efficiency of roughly 25% per attack.
Now, what if you didn't stack Rage, used only one Recharge and 1-3 To Hit buffs so that you could have it perma and wouldn't have to slot Accuracy, and 6-slotted all of your attacks for Damage? Assuming +2 green SOs, 6-slotted attacks plus Rage would put you at the 400% damage cap for 120 seconds and then 10 seconds of zero damage. That's an overall damage of 369%.
Therefore, the "normal" method of perma-Rage plus 6-slotted damage has an overall damage of 369% with no increased endurance efficiency but with 17% less attacks needed for almost the same damage as the previous method.
So, the net result is your method of stacking Rage versus simple perma Rage is virtually identical in overall damage. The only improvement in your method is endurance efficiency. But, remember, both methods are doing virtually the same damage but your method requires more attacks to do it. Yes, your attacks are more endurance efficient but you have to use more of them to do the same damage because of your lower number of damage enhancements.
I prefer the much simpler method of perma-Rage. Virtually the same damage for less attacks, at a higher endurance cost, but you only have to deal with the annoying Rage crash once every 120 seconds instead of every 90 seconds.
I think Rage is great apart from not being able to Taunt during the downtime, but stacking Rage isn't any better than just "normally" using it all the time. It could, however, be more frustrating because of having to deal with more frequent Rage crashes.
Dwimble
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Actually you're incorrect about one thing, the aggroing part of Invincibility doesn't do squat during those 10 seconds.
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doesn't do squat or doesn't do as much?
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[ QUOTE ]
Actually you're incorrect about one thing, the aggroing part of Invincibility doesn't do squat during those 10 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
doesn't do squat or doesn't do as much?
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It doesn't do anything. The Rage crash is like Phase Shift without the benefit. You can't affect enemies in any way with any of your powers (whether active or passive), but they can still affect you.
[ QUOTE ]
doesn't do squat or doesn't do as much?
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, yes, what the wise and cunning toad said.
Saying Rage is situational is frankly bizarre given that it can very easily be made not only permanent but STACKABLE. How is that situational? If it were truly situational, it would look a lot more like Unstoppable. A much longer buff, and a much longer activation time. And like Unstoppable, it would never be used.
The period of enforced inactivity does not make Rage situational, it simply makes it a headache.
There is no other power in the game that FORCES you to remain totally inactive for a period of time. Sure, Phase Shift and Invisibility make you unable to affect anyone else, but if that becomes a problem you simply turn them off and go on your merry way attacking things. With Rage, you're stuck; you can't just turn it off. And that ten seconds starts feeling longer and more frustrating the more you play with it.
I will reiterate the most important point. The current Rage is not fun. All of a sudden realizing that you're in the middle of a melee doing nothing is not fun. Clicking madly on a button so that it'll activate as soon as you can act again is not fun. Standing there like a moron getting beat on the head, unable to respond, is not fun. All of that is at best boring and at worst frustrating, and from much gaming experience I can say for certain that a game that frustrates the player is not one that is going to be played for very long. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and anything that damages that fun needs to be changed.
It's looking like the fun factor is no longer important though, and Rage will not be fixed. In that case, at least give us SS tanks another free respec to replace the one we've been jacked out of with all these new changes, so we can ditch Rage and replace it with something that's actually fun to play with.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson