bluething

Kinda gotta agree, theres alot of changes that are hurting the fun factor more than helping it. I have played with Rage a great deal and still think it sucks, its absolutly no fun to have to stand there mashing buttons waiting to be able to play again.... give me build up or let me respec into an entirely different power pool ;P

I thought suppresion was pretty cool at first then I played it and played it and played it and after experianceing it and multiple deaths on my Blaster and Defender as a result, I'm not impressed. If you suddenly realise you have to attempt a quick retreat, you have only realised your already dead cause you wont escape in time.

I just ask that you put this thought into place when make changes "Are we takeing the super out of the hero?" cause alot of the changes made are makeing me feel alot less Super Hero and more like a Super Zero.

But lets not end this on a negative note, cause you guys "the Devs" have made some great changes and added some really awsome things as well. Tar Patch for one, I'm happy for those playing a Dark/* Def along with many other powers that got improved like Speed Boost. I can only hope that Ice/* Tanks and */Dark Scrappers get alittle love soon, not that they are the only ones needing it. I've read some amazeingly cool ideas from players for makeing blasters more Fun and team worthy and I can only hope the Dev team has seen those posts and and sunk their hooks into some of those ideas.

What I and I'm sure many others would like to see is more bringing the hero at the bottum, up to level with the guys in the middle and less takeing the guy at the top down. It would be nice if one issue wasnt a mighty swing from the nerf bat and it would surely reflect possitivly if for once it was fixing the weak and not balanceing the strong.

We the players do need to understand however that (for example) the changes to Energy Absorbtion probly had to be made without changes to the Ice Armor pools other powers so they could see the impact it made and then figure out where to make improvements and this probly goes for alot of other powers as well, like Elude the Devs need to see how SR performs without it perma before they can make improvements else where. I'm sure internal testing doesnt answer all the questions compaired to all the info they can gather from the vast number of payers.

Okay shutting up now cause this post has become longer and covered more than I intended.

Last night while playing my level 22 Rad/Rad Defender and hunting with a 23 Scrapper I died and while laying there 20 feet away from the fight waiting a safe opportunity to use an awaken I got NO thats NADA ZILCH NONE and ZERO XP. I hadnt delt any damage but I had debuffed the mobs and been useing my heal.

Thanks Devs for makeing the game worse for those of us who are actually playing it. I couldnt give less of a crap about people getting PLed, THAT never hurt my game but this does.

On a simular note I noticed when my team mates leave to train 201+ feet away but in the same zone and I stay behid to hunt I still get the reduced XP of being in a group even though no one else is getting any of it. Where is the risk = reward in that ? If your gonna make it so people out of range dont get XP fine, make it so those killing get their XP as if they where soloing otherwise you just hurt the team element, now to get my risk = reward I have to quit the team while they train or let XP disapear into thin air.

I have to strongly disagree with capping Blaster damage at 400% vs. Scrapper damage at 500% and here are my reasons. You say that range lets us pick and choose our targets, but to survive a fight we have to fight smaller numbers and weaker mobs than a scrapper because we...

A) Blasters do less damage.

B) Blasters take more damage cause scrapper secondaries are defensive and ours are offensive, more attacks does not make you deal more damage, you can only cycle through them so fast.

C) Mobs in the 35+ range have greater range than a Blaster has, just the other day I was fighting a level 42 Fake Nem with my 42 Blaster and I was at least twice as far from him as my longest range attack (snipe) could reach and he killed me in 2 attacks with his Staff, and the minions where still able to hit me while I was out of range of my own attacks.

So I ask, what good is my range advantage ? I do less damage and take ALOT more damage than a scrapper and have less range than my enemies. Soloing is NOT an option for my Blaster any longer.

I'm not asking to be a ranged Scrapper but I think its fair that Blaster be abe to do just as good damage and that their damage caps be equel at 500%. Some kinda status effect resistance would be nice at higher levels too, being slept, held, immobilsed, stunned, slowed or perma Knocked down Ect makes soloing late game nearly impossible.

As it is, I'm really enjoying my Defender "Offender" who does everything better than my Blaster and with his group buffs can get some status protection, weaken his opponents, heal himself ect.

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A tank without Taunt IS a solo build. If you have been teaming with folks, you have by no means been even close to average at the role a tank is supposed to have. The modest amounts of agro you get from being a punchvoker (which is a pretty new idea in this game) is nothign compared to the agro the blasters, khelds or scrappers will generate beating on the mobs-All have much higher damage curves. Get taunt and use it-or please stop compaining that your toon is broken. it works great-you're jsut asking it to do somethign it can't do unless you use the tools they gave it to do the job. Sheeesh, might as well spec my blaster by slotting only secondaries then complain on the boards about how Cryptic sucks because controllers out damage me!

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Completely false. If YOU can't control aggro without Taunt, that sounds like a fault of you, not other tankers. I do just fine without Taunt, and I am definitely a team tank. You don't rely on just Punchvoke to do your job...all tanker builds I can think of have AoE powers that can be slotted with taunt enhancers. Ice primary has 3 AoE powers that can be slotted with taunt enhancers, and 2 of them are auto-hit (meaning I don't have to worry if the mob is +20 levels above or whatever...it will always hit him). Invuln has Invincibility, which is auto-hit. Stone Armor has Mud Pots, Fire has Burn and Blazing Aura, and Consume. Those are just the primaries...if you add in the secondaries, any attack or effect can add taunt enhancers. With all of that, you STILL seem to think that a single power can be that much more effective than all of your other powers?

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Playing my Kheldian in Nova form I have discovered that in the low game at least taunt IS neccessary. I've grouped with atleast 10 different tanks in my 6-18 levels and only one ONE was able to keep agro off me, guess what, she had taunt and used it. At level 16 I grouped with a tank who was level 20 we went into his mission and after letting him bash the level 20-21 bad guys several times I started blasting his targets, unSKed I pulled agro off him and well of course went splat (my other option is to just sit and watch, oh joy).

Now I dont know many tanks, actually I dont know any tanks who put taunt enhancers in Invincability or Mudpots or Burn ect. and seriously by the time you get to 50 (me personally anyhow) you have power slots that you really dont know what to fill with. I ended up takeing 2 travel powers. Theres enough other bad powers in just about every pool that you should be able to make room for Taunt.

Honestly I dont know why you wouldnt take it if not to just make life easier. Ranged taunt saves you loads of running around which dureing that time you can loose other agro. Now I'm not saying you HAVE to take it, I'm sure some ATs can get away with not haveing Taunt, Fire and Ice tanks come to mind since they seem to have more AoE that taunts but Mace, Axe, SS, SA, SM, Invul. Come on guys be realistic, especially in the early game, save your teams some grief, take the power and use it. If you find later on that you no longer need it you can respec out of it but I gaurantee haveing it in the early game will make life easier and all the squishys love you more.

Edit: Consider this, not all mobs will close into melee with you and follow you all over the map while you "herd" as you move around to punchvoke or use your AoE taunt in your shields you WILL loose mobs who only use ranged attacks. Snipers for example, from my expierance NEVER move.

Well Invul isnt the topic but... I love invul, short of Unstoppable all the powers are useful and work well. SStr how is the yuck and I wish I hadnt deleted my level 20 Invul/EM tank inorder to remake him for as an Invul/SS with the same name....

Rather than a respec the devs should just let us rechoose our secondary power pool....... I know, never gonna happen but at this point thats what I want for x-mas.

SStr runs too high an endurance cost for too little damage then you have to deal with Rage.... Invuls toggles may be more spendy than other tank toggles, I really cant say. But if thats the case then all I can say is bummer... but at least Invul works well where SStr does not, for its cost ^^

To Sable Phoenix I say /agreed

And to xMSGx I say... Its just a name and the powers function in the game should not be defined by a name in a matter that makes it no fun to use.
Perhaps buffs like Aim should make all your characters attacks behaive like sniper attacks, increaseing the casting time so that you are actually aiming and allowing you to be interupted if your hit.
And Parry should make you wait for the enemy to actually attack and then you try and parry the incomeing attack.
And, and, and....

The endurance cost of the set is something of a marvel. I cant remember if I have posted this before but... I have all toggles and attacks slotted with and endurance cost reducer and I have 6 slotted stamina, short of useing conserver power I run out of endurance extremely fast if I do anything other than taunt and casually toss a Foot stomp or Knockout blow. Add to that the endurance drop from Hasten for those who use it and from Rage for those who use it and good lord, it gets real boreing real quick when you cant do anything but stand there and taunt not to mention if you used Rage you get to stand there and do even less.

That is why it takes the fun out of it. Its not Rage alone, its a combination of endurance cost and endurance drop. But the changes to Rage have put all the focus on it and IMO for good reason.

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Yeah I have to agree. I know there are some busy bodies that think rage was actually built into SS by design to compensate for a pretty mediocre set of attacks, and to bring it somewhere close to, but still behind several other tanker melees. Hogwash. I think that since it adds 80% to our damage-they only way to compensate this is to subtract 80% from the exp of everthing we kill when we use it.. ANy maybe 1 bar of debt acrrued upon activation. Something like that seems fair....

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and once again

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STOP IT! I cant breath!!!!!11one

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Rage needs to have more drawbacks.

Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.

How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.

This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.



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My reaction

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OMG I cant stop laughing, I'll give a big /AGREE on that reaction.

Also, with a good defender you could always work around rages penaltys, THAT is team work not over powered or broken. Now you cant do anything but sit and wait, 10 seconds doesnt seem like much but when you play for hours it adds up and feels longer and longer and longer every time ^^

I took Stamina (6 slotted) and Conserve Power (6 slotted) and put endurance reductions in all my toggles and attacks just so I wouldnt have to stand around doing nothing...... *pauses for effect (10 seconds)* Okay probly didnt get much effect outa that ;p but anyhow. Even without the 10 sec nose pick break I have to be careful for running out of endurance cause Rage and Hasten will both spank me if I'm not alert ^^

This is an action game ACTION, standing around isnt why I play, if I wanted to stand around I would go play DAoC or SWG or WoW where I could spend hours standing around crafting aprons and widdleing wood.

Now dont be angery at me for my opion I'm not upset cause other people have opinions of there own (only dissapointed that you havent conformed to my brain washing) Just shareing my thoughts and opinions and like a butt everyone has it and it stinks.

EDIT: Oh yeah! I'm thinking of trying a Fire/- tank now so I have something else to complain about when they get the nerf bat (just kidding about the nerf thing, calm down all you fire tanks :P)

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...Too many people got used to the wonderful feeling of permaRage/permaUnstoppable or permaRage/mobile mez protection. Too bad that it was totally unbalanced and unfair to the other powersets who have nothing like it.

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Actually all of the other tanker powersets DO have something like it...Build Up, which has no penalty other than it can't be made perma, and it takes five more slots to reach its best potential.

Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.

Even if you make Build Up 40% overall that is still just a 25% base damage advantage for Rage. That's equivalent to a single 50 influence damage inspiration. That's hardly something that made Super Strength "unbalanced" or "unfair", except perhaps to War Mace, which is decidedly the worst tanker secondary and needs some love. Further, if you used Rage the way you suggest, only situationally for AVs and/or big bosses, then it would be providing potentially much less than Build Up because Build Up has none of the disadvantages, which means it can be used in every battle, multiple times.

Now, all that aside, I'm not one to curse Rage or defend it. I think it provides a good benefit, with a tolerable penalty. My main complaint with it is that it isn't fun. The stun wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, the 100% endurance drop wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, and the 10-second stand there like an idiot with you buttons frozen isn't fun either. TONS of suggestions for alternatives have been made in this thread and the couple of other active Rage threads. Frankly I don't see how you could have missed them if you've read the threads at all.

Hardly anyone at all has complained about no damage for 10 seconds. But what most people across the board have agreed upon is that tankers should still be able to Taunt or have taunt auras during the crash (even if the taunt is reduced a bit). At least then you wouldn't have to go through button-mashing annoyance every two minutes or feel like an inanimate sack of meat.

Dwimble

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/agree

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Thank you, Eviltrickster. Good post.

The issue here is some tankers (not all, but some) are just mad that they can't level as fast as they used to. Rage was meant to be a "last resort" power, like MoG. You need a big boost to take out a boss, AV, or monster? You got into a rage, and kick its butt. Rage was not meant to be turned on or off like a shield, nor was it meant to be an "everyday" power like Swipe or Thunder Kick. Rage is like Nova. You now use it when you have to make a big offensive punch, and then afterwards deal with the side effects.

Many tankers don't like this because they were used to hitting rage all the time and slicing through plus 5 lvl cons and getting massive XP. NOBODY else can do this. It's an exploit. An obvious exploit. An imbalance in the game.

I'm very happy the Devs find these imblances and fix them, and then ignore whiners who complain about the fix. It shows they care about the game, and how it is supposed to be played.

Bravo to them. Best devs in the business when it comes to costumers, no question.

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If it isnt ment to be an "everyday" power then maybe the devs shoulda just made it harder or impossible to make perma (like Unstoppable) I dont care about it "makeing me level slower" cause it doesnt, what I care about is the power being fun to use, which it isnt IMO and thats what the forums are, opinions.

What I understood about Punch-voke was that it not only affected and area around you but it also created more agro than the damage you delt inorder to keep agro off allies. For example I hit for 50 damage but it creates 100 points of agro so that the scrapper next to me hitting for 95 doesnt take the agro.
I have also noticed that the duration on this agro is fairly short if you miss to often or dont keep punching away regularly you cant keep agro. Thus your low end fast rechargeing attacks are usefull for keeping the agro chain alive.

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just a question, but if taunting ability would remain, would that help?

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Yup it would help the majority of players. But I found that 10-15 seconds to be horribly agoniseing. Every time Rage went down I found myself counting the seconds and saying to myself
"omg that has got to be 10 seconds, oh god this is so boreing, uhg this sucks... c'mon c'mon c'mon.... finally............"

Edit: No matter how tired I am I still have enough energy to curse at and degrade my opponent ;P

Yup hate it. I played for about 4 hours last night and the combination of the 10 second delay and the endurance drain really made my char no fun and a hazzard to my team rather than a benefit. I had to stop useing the power just so I could enjoy myself and keep my team alive, so when all is said and done my respec will remove 3 powers (Rage, Unstoppable & Hurl) thats 4 powers in my AT that I deam junk (Hand clap being the 4th)

Glad I rerolled a scrapper dureing the Winter Lords and PLed him, he's 32 now ^^

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I am a level 38 blaster, playing on the Heroic level. I can finally solo again now that the roll back happened.. and I see LT's like mad in my missions. They are usually orange too.

I am very happy with the changes.

If I want it tougher, I'll team with a tank who's on invicible.

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LOL, thats right or you could grab a Scappy thats on invincable ;p

I'm finding that different criminal organisations will give me different mixes of Lts and bosses. Rikti for one are very nice.

Oh yeah, yummy Dull Pain. I havent played with this power much since I havent needed it, but recently its been more usefull than Unstoppable and Rage combined. Anyone feel like posting some ideas on how to socket Dull Pain ? ( I know I'm off topic but.... I'm tired of crying about Rage, my eyes are dry and itchy ;p)

On topic, I realise that the 10-15 second cant do anything penalty thats on test is supposed to simulate the disorient effect. Now I havent been on test but it seems to me that is some what better, it keeps people from avoiding the "tired effect" so that the power has the same down time and penalty for casual players as it does for "elite meta gamers" (or what ever you call them) I'm assumeing since I havent tested it that you can still move around and that your toggle dont shut off (assumeing the 20 or 30 point endurance drain doesnt leave you empty) Realise this, we where never ment to be able to avoid the dissorient effect by useing Unyeilding- it was just a lucky side effect that we got to take advantage of, however the power didnt drain endurance and give a deffense penalty and adding additional penaltys along with fixing the old busted ones is to much.

Rage would be fine I think with the 10-15 second (tired effect) and the -5% def penalty, if they would just get rid of the endurance drain. What little endurance I have is precious to me. As it used to be Rage would dissorient you for 10-15 seconds or was supposed to at least. Lets not forget that this power is much better than Build up in many ways (it lasts for 2 minutes and can be made perma, something I havent been able to accomplish with Build up).

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If you are an Inv/SS Tank you have four powers that are utter crap!

Hand Clap.....Hurl....Rage......Unstoppable......

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I have a friend with an Inv/SS tank. He likes Hand Clap. It's a nice way to grab aggro for him. He hasn't gotten Foot Stomp yet, but still.
He likes Hurl. He feels it's nice to have a ranged attack outside of temp powers.

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That's all well and good, but liking something doesn't make it good, I also Like Hurl but the Damage is poor and the range is so short you may as well go up to the bad guy and use Haymaker.

I still say put Rage back how it was before I3, it was fine.

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Your all correct. I have Hurl and I like it, but it is total crap and you may as well go up and use Haymaker. So is Unstoppable, which I also have cause I thought it would be good for emergiancys, but anytime I have needed to use it its been worthless and I've died anyhow since it seems like the only time I'm in danger enough to use it is when I'm fighting an AV and well lets see the last 2 I fought where Countess Crey and alternate demension Clockwork King so you can imagine how much good it did me (this is the "best" power in my primary pool and I used it maybe once in the last 96 hours of play time). Hand clap is great! if your fighting WHITE con minions which I never do, I rarely see yellows its usually oranges or higher besides your better off with Taunt, Invincable or Foot stomp for getting agro. And well Rage as we all know is a work in progress.

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Rage 80% increase to base damage and Acc
Hasten 33% increase to enhanced damage and 5% Def buff

Hasten will also mean that any self buff I have will be available more often. Rage just isn't worth it anymore.

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I am just reading this wrong ? Hasten is an increase to attack rate, meaning your attacks recharge faster, not an increase to the damage, although increased attack rate increases your damage output. And other than rage what self buffs do you have ? Dont get me wrong Hasten is still a good choice and yes Rage currently isnt worth haveing, the post just seems abit unclear.

So in short Super Strength now has Rage and Hurl (which is what I feel like doing) that suck. Not to mention if your an Invul. you get Unstoppable to help kill you too.

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I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing a severe drop-off in the number of lieutenants and bosses in missions since the patch on Feb. 1.

I've no problem with the bosses being rolled back in difficulty; the one shot was pretty annoying. But the spawns types appear to have been affected as well. I mostly duoed prior to Issue 3, and I certainly don't remember the near-complete lack of lieutenants and bosses that I'm now seeing.

Please look into this, States. Invincible is currently a cake walk, and I don't even want to look at the lower settings.

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Yup absolutely, I'm not sure I even know what a Lieutenant is (sarcasm for those who wont get it) but honestly I havent seen an Lt. in any of my last 6 door missions and only twice have I seen them in the last 15 or so. Plus the one boss per mission, maybe the criminal element has stopped giveing unearned promotions. A boss can still take me down in 2 or 3 hits but I'm okay with that since they are +4 levels ^^

This post has gotten to long for me to read it all but heres my 2 cents.

The change made was good for the majority and Yaaay! Okay that said, I'm currently playing a level 31 Kat/Reg scrapper and he's ALOT of fun. I have Quick recovery and Stamina both 6 slotted and run Integration and Instant healing together non stop. I was playing with my difficulty set at Unyeilding for awhile and it just wasnt enough, I group and solo about equaly. So now I'm at Invicable and its okay, soloing the boss is a challenge like it should be. If I'm not careful I can die (some of the Council bosses will hit me for half my life with a kick) but overall the mission isnt giveing me enough mobs, now I realise I'll be told to group to get larger groups of badies in my missions. Point is it would be nice if there was a harder difficulty setting that would also increase the number of mobs in a mission.

As it is now I'm getting orange and red minions and purple bosses, lots of fun but I'd just like to fight more than one or two minions at a time. of course I could do this in the streets but then I have to deal with someone running up (Fire tanks most often or blaster who want to leach off my efforts) and annihilateing what I've attacked and wasteing my efforts, so being able to get some large groups to solo in a mission would be nice.

Also I noticed before the boss change that my regular group of friends where often fighting multiple bosses in a mission (Rikti usually), since the boss change and starting my scrapper I have seen only 2 missions that had multiple bosses. One was the cape mission with a team of 5 players (that missions was so much fun) and the other was a Sky Raider mission I was solo on and I had to fight 5 or six Jump Bots in differant locations one was name H.A.V.O.C. (Also a very fun mission, sure am glad that none of them where with each other since all conned purple to me) so has something changed with the number of bosses that spawn in a mission or was it just dumb luck to find such great challenges. Perhaps certain criminal organisations just have more bosses and when my scrapper finally starts in on the Rikti I'll get big juicy suprises of multiple yummy XP filled bosses (though I cant immagine surviveing two Rikti bosses at once with those big heavy hiting swords ^^ but what fun it will be to try, thanksfully they dont train themselves for accuracy).

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I still say three downsides is to much for not enough of a boost!

Everyone else here seems to be excepting the new Rage on Test as a god send, It's still a Pile of Smeg!!!

Put the Bugger back how it was before I3, it was fine!!!

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I'm convincedthese changes are because of the new PVP stuff. I've seen it before, massive and mostly undocumented change to a charater type/ability because players are now going to be using it against each other.

Doesn't mean that I enjoy, or even respect the changes at all or the reasons behind them. I find the new rage to be an insult and I feel I'm being punished for other player's desire to PVP. I have no interest in PVP at all. None, but I get to watch my AT primary and secondary be changed for PVP balance. I wish powers would just work different in PVP situations so those of us who want to PVP can learn and strategize and those of us who don't want to can keep playing our way.

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I personally dont think the changes are do to PvP since I think that would cal for to many other ATs to be changed also. Now this isnt an exact quote but Statesman said somewhere (to lasy to look it up) I believe in Q & A 2 that they didnt want characters to play differantly in PvP than in the normal game. That makes sense to me, however I feel anygame that wasnt designed for PvP to begin with shouldnt have it. I remember trying the PvP servers in EQ and that was a horrible unbalanced nightmare, even in DAoC which was built for PvP some classes where just WAY stronger. Mages/Wizards have always ruled PvP so who will rule it in CoH ? CONTROLERS, for those of you who want to PvP you better build your Cont up on that note, I dont think Rage could be so over powered that it needs a change for PvP

On a lighter note (sorta) I was reading another post where the poster was jokeing is a news cast fashion about how super strength isnt really super, I got a great laugh out of it cause in the end the two tanks who where witnessing events the next day turned to each other and one said "well, guess I'll go reroll a scrapper" to darn funny since thats what I did and I'm sure a few others have too ;p

Oh yeah and back to Rage, I could live with and be happy with a 20 or 30 point endurance drop and a penalty of -5% to defense but from where I'm sitting the 10-15 seconds where you cant do anything is no good. I just cant see enojoying a char that every two minutes has to stop and stand around for a reason other than resting endurance which with stamina I never need to do, plus it seems a little dangerous to have a tank thats gonna drop in the middle of an extended long fight and not be able to help his team, thus not be tanking. Currently and level 40 my groups fights last longer than two minutes, I often use rage 2 or 3 times in a fight and when/if I ever solo, we all know tank fights are generally long and slow, lets not make it slower and boreing.

*sigh...* I give up, see that scrapper second from the bottum of my sig ? thats where I'll be untill they nerf him (Regen). At least he's fun.

*sigh....* I dont play my tank any more, I miss him but it was just to frustrateing, its been 2 weeks and I have a plethora of new chars thanks to the Winter Lords......

Hmmm... Well heres my updated boo-hoo (voice) about Rage. Like everyone else a response from the Devs would be appreciated, I can live with Rage as is for awhile but at least give us some info.

I have life alot better than most of these poor tanks since my wife plays an Illus/FF and we almost always group with a friend we met on CoH who plays and Illus/Emp. So I still use Rage but hey, I have Bubbles, Heals, and best of all Recovery Aura. BUT! I never EVER solo anymore, just cant do it with Rage like it is. This gives me lots of time to play alts and takes from my time trying to get my main char to 50 so I can try the new ATs....

Obviously the servers are down cause I'm saying waaay more than is necessary ;p see ya all be well and keep the faith!