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The Rage crash is like Phase Shift without the benefit. You can't affect enemies in any way with any of your powers (whether active or passive), but they can still affect you.
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actually if you stand in a mob phase shifted they will attack....
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actually if you stand in a mob phase shifted they will attack....
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Just to be on the safe side, I tested this theory with a bunch of grey cons just now, and no, they didn't attack me even though I was calling them names. Obviously, phase shift does not aggro villains. 
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actually if you stand in a mob phase shifted they will attack....
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Yes, if you are low-enough level that they will agro on you. But that's only because they can see you; it has nothing whatsoever to do with Invincibility or any other power. If a controller walks up to them with PS on then they will attack him too. Phase Shift doesn't make you invisible, it just gives you some stealth, so of course they will try to attack you. But that doesn't have anything to do with powers working through PS or the Rage crash, because they don't. Invincibility doesn't taunt thru Phase Shift and it doesn't taunt thru the Rage crash either.
ok...that was a bad example..but if you phase shift in even cons they will attack....but then again they would attack anything phase shifted or not...
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5 Slotting for damage with single rage is 400% cap. Test:Hit someting with rage with 6 slotted dmg then remove one slot hit something again and you'll find that there is no change in damage.
so how can 6 slotting it for damage improve your build?
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You need to recheck your numbers because that's not the case. The best five damage SOs can improve your damage is 191.5% if they are all +3 green SOs. Then, adding Rage's 80% brings it to +271.5%. That's 371.5% total damage.
A white SO is 33.3% improvement to base. A +3 green SO is +38.3%. So, 5 X 38.3% = 191.5%. That's the best improvement five SOs can get you. Rage gives an 80% boost, so in order to reach the cap without stacking it you have to get your damage up to at least +220%. Even if Rage was +100% like Build Up it still wouldn't get you to the cap with five SOs.
So, there is no way 5 SOs plus unstacked Rage could get you to the tanker's 400% cap unless you had a defender buffing you or you sneaked in a couple of Hamidon enhancements. 
Dwimble
eh...i must digress....i did some testing on test with an older version of my tank at 42 with +3 SO's with 6 dmg....
43 nemesis lieut
KOB
no rage test 1 443
rage x 1 test 2 538
rage x 2 test 3 538
so at 6 dmg and rage you reach the cap.....
eh....i know i tested this before and i have taken out my dmg so's in my attacks personally because when i tested...they came out the same when i had 5 SO's....
when i tested before it was on bosses...might that have anything to do with it? and i swear the numbers came out the same whether i used 5 SOs and Rage or 6 SO's and rage...i wouldnt make this up....
thanks for making me check my build...i may have to change it back....
I feel that the 10 second down time at the end of rage is the oddest penalty. I could see -Dam or -Acc as a normal penalty for running out of rage but when combined with -End and -Def it seems kind of excessive and petty. As mentioned before Hasten which is arguably the most game breaking power out there has only one penalty. This seems to be too small if its impact on dps is compared to that of rage. Yes rage has the ability to replace 2 types of enh but as it has been pointed out SS is somewhat underpowered in the DPS catagory. This is the power that makes SS viable. How about we dont cripple a tanker from doing his job? Take out the 10 second down time.
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Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.
Even if you make Build Up 40% overall that is still just a 25% base damage advantage for Rage. That's equivalent to a single 50 influence damage inspiration. That's hardly something that made Super Strength "unbalanced" or "unfair", except perhaps to War Mace, which is decidedly the worst tanker secondary and needs some love. Further, if you used Rage the way you suggest, only situationally for AVs and/or big bosses, then it would be providing potentially much less than Build Up because Build Up has none of the disadvantages, which means it can be used in every battle, multiple times.
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So. how much Endurance is used to keep Build Up at a +50% Damage Over Time effect compared to the Endurance cost of Rage?
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all this for a measily 25 End cost and 10 sec down time (which in that down time i press my self activation toggles i.e. dull pain, haste, do a little of running around (invince is good aggroer) and im back to fighting....i have noticed however the -def seems to be a little more than 5%.....
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Actually you're incorrect about one thing, the aggroing part of Invincibility doesn't do squat during those 10 seconds. (Easy enough to test on a grey con - stand next to it without aggroing it, use rage, wait til it runs out and activate invincibility. You'll notice that invinc won't aggro them til you get your attacking ability back.)
This little fact is actually the ONLY reason I'm respeccing out of rage as soon as I can, I don't really mind that much not being able to attack or taunt, but being completely unable to use even invincibility for aggro control during this downtime isn't working for me.
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Quoted and highlighted for empathsis.
The original reason that Statesman stated that they were changing Rage was because so many SS tankers weren't using it.
Well, they've now made it so that for many of those that have it, either use it a whole lot less (like myself), or are removing it from their builds (such as Rose).
The people that don't have it aren't in any hurry to pick it up.
Congrats States. You've made Rage truly situational. Hardly anyone takes it or uses it.
Oh, and just to add a little salt to the wound...
If you fellow SS tankers think Rage sucks now, wait till PvP.
I actually think Rage is great, except for the always annoying, stupid, pain in the backside, stand-there-like-an-idiot Rage crash when you can't Taunt. It REALLY annoys, but I deal with it because the benefits make it worth using, but just barely.
Rage keeps all of my attacks at the 400% cap for 120 seconds and then I do nothing for 10 seconds. Overall that's 369% damage on everything. Plus, I have two To Hit buffs in it, which gives me a +41.65% accuracy (assuming Rage's buff to Acc is 25%). That's better than an SO in every attack with no Rage. Plus, if I wanted to I could put a third in it to get the buff up to +50% Acc.
To me that makes the horrifically annoying crash worth dealing with. However, I'd take just about any penalty mentioned in these threads, or even an increase in Rage's other two penalties if I could just Taunt throughout the crash. The current state keeps me just under the love/hate borderline of that power.
Dwimble
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So. how much Endurance is used to keep Build Up at a +50% Damage Over Time effect compared to the Endurance cost of Rage?
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I did a quick calculation and it looks like at its best potential you could use Build Up six times during Rage's 130 seconds. That's assuming perma-Hasten and six SO Recharges in Build Up. Most sources say Build Up costs 7.5 to use, so that's 45 endurance over time. Rage costs 6 up front and 25 at the backend, which is 31 total. So...
Cost to use perma-Rage: 31
Cost to use "perma" Build Up: 45
Therefore, over time Build Up costs 45% more endurance than Rage. 45% makes it sound like a lot, but in practical terms 14 points spread out over a two minute period really is a very small amount. Plus, because the bulk of Rage's cost comes all at once at the end, and is to some degree involuntary, it has a significant potential to drop your endurance to zero if you aren't very careful and attentive.
So, in the end, Rage costs less over time than Build Up but has a cost that is more difficult to manage. It provides 15-50% more to base damage depending upon how it and your attacks are slotted, but has a -Def and "frozen" downtime penalty. It subjective, but I think they are fairly balanced powers when you weigh the penalties versus the benefits. Some people prefer one while some prefer the other. That doesn't address the Super Strength versus the other sets comparison, but that's another issue entirely, which seems to never end.
I prefer Rage, but every time the crash hits me and I can't Taunt and I start mashing buttons waiting for it to end I find myself briefly wishing I had Build Up. If they let me Taunt but increased some other penalty to compensate then it would be no contest...I'd prefer Rage hands down.
Dwimble
Not just Taunt. That does nothing for us who don't have Taunt, and forces us into the Tauntbot role which Issue 3 supposedly was going to help us avoid.
The entire 10 second downtime needs to be removed, period, in order to keep the power fun. Increase the defense penalty if you must, but remove the inability to affect anything but yourself entirely.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
How are you gettting 400% out of rage?
If you 6 slot your attacks with damage, that will give you another 200%, plus rage's 80%. That should = 280%, not 400%. I'm curious to see what your math is.
Thanks!
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
I'm using plain old ordinary math.
The cap is 400%, or +300%. If you say, "I can do 200% damage, that means double damage, or +100% to your damage. If you say the cap is 400% that means you can add 300% to your damage.
People often confuse that because you can express it two ways. You can either say that the cap is +300% damage, or you can say the cap is 400% damage. Both are true.
Saying the cap is 300%, however, is not entirely accurate because it is incomplete information. The cap is actually plus 300% (i.e. 400%).
Edited to add: Oh, and just to clarify, you can get to the cap with Rage if you 6-slot +2 SO damages in your attacks. Whites won't do it, that would only get you to 380% damage. Six white SOs adds 200%. Six +2 SOs adds 220% (actually it's 219.78%) so adding Rage's 80% puts you at the +300% cap, or 400% damage.
Dwimble
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Not just Taunt. That does nothing for us who don't have Taunt, and forces us into the Tauntbot role which Issue 3 supposedly was going to help us avoid.
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Quoted for emphasis.
Although to be honest I think this thread should be locked since I believe there is little chance any change.
Rage 3 is generally has much less of a penalty that Rage 1. I know I can use much more frequently and with almost no consequence. So since we have gotten off so lightly it seems rediculous to complain, however ...
Why have the Devs gone to such lengths to give SS Tanks a disadvantage that almost cannot be worked around?
To me that seems entirely counter to the concept of a "game" and the Defender in me objects to this more than the Tank.
[*]It would seem that the only way round the Attention Deficit Disorder Syndrome is to build up enough aggro before hand (hence the Taunt-bot comment above).
[*]The most severe disadvantage (for the Tank anyway) is the END for which the solution is a good build. So does this power effect the casual player and hardcore player equally as Statesman intended? Nope.
Compare the current solution to Original Rage + Status Protection power and you can see that the Original fits Statesman intent much much better.
I cannot think of a better in game example of "if its not broken, don't fix it".
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Ah! <lightbulb flashes on> Thank you very much! Was wondering about that 
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
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Why have the Devs gone to such lengths to give SS Tanks a disadvantage that almost cannot be worked around?
To me that seems entirely counter to the concept of a "game" and the Defender in me objects to this more than the Tank.
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Jagged, you are a gentleman(woman?) and a scholar. Bravo.
Although I seriously hope you are wrong about this being a dead issue. If the ADD syndrome (great description by the way) is not removed from my tank soon, I'm seriously going to stop playing her. And if that happens, my interest in the game as a whole is not going to be far behind. She is the only character I've enjoyed playing enough to get to 50 with, and I enjoy her enough that I'm still playing after 50, but the frustration of three months of changes has built to a point that I am very nearly ready to quit over it.
Rage needs to be made fun again. In its current ADD incarnation, I will repeat, and maybe the dev team will wake up and take notice this time (yeah right):
It.
Is.
NOT.
Fun.
If it's not made fun again, very soon, it will become the camelspine-breaking straw for me. Not only for the character, but the entire game.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
Why have the Devs gone to such lengths to give SS Tanks a disadvantage that almost cannot be worked around?
To me that seems entirely counter to the concept of a "game" and the Defender in me objects to this more than the Tank.
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This is easy. The old Rage had basically no drawbacks or they could be fairly easily circumvented by the power gamers, but your non-powergamers were the ones most affected.
Now everyone gets the same drawback that can not be gotten around.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Why have the Devs gone to such lengths to give SS Tanks a disadvantage that almost cannot be worked around?
To me that seems entirely counter to the concept of a "game" and the Defender in me objects to this more than the Tank.
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This is easy. The old Rage had basically no drawbacks or they could be fairly easily circumvented by the power gamers, but your non-powergamers were the ones most affected.
Now everyone gets the same drawback that can not be gotten around.
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How is using your status protection (which you would be using anyways, since without it a tank doesn't last more than 5 seconds without it) to help mitigate Rage 1.0's drawback to a limited degree make all of us (and there were very many, even people that never read the boards knew about this) make us powergamers?
What's more, it was never a guarentee. I had to develop very specific strageties for using Rage against big groups of enemies; they didn't always work, which is one of the reasons I have all 3 debt badges on my tanker. But even with these strategies, I didn't use Rage all that much, except against the big boss at the end of a mission.
If you're being sarcastic and I'm missing it, then I apologize, Futurias. But I'm feeling the same way Sable does. I barely play anymore, because this is so frustrating.
I started a fire/fire tank recently.
Now, I'm not too high level yet, but I team with an Invulnerability/SS tanker occasionally.
Not only are my defensive toggles cheaper (fire shield and plasma shield compared to TI plus unyielding), but my attacks seem cheaper too. And you know something, my fire tanker only has two attacks currently but I keep stealing aggro from the SS tanker with provoke-punch, and the SS tanker has twice as many attacks (which may also be a cause of the endurance problem). I also end fights with twice the endurance he does (and that's assuming I don't use Consume).
Conculsions: First, SS doesn't seem to be able to keep up damage-wise at low level against fire. I assume this will only get worse. And that's the fire secondary. SS also costs far more endurance than fire, which if it can't keep up, just isn't fair. If Rage were too be able to be used more often, it might be more equal. Secondly, I now think TI costs too much endurance. It doesn't do as much as Fire Shield, but Fire Shield seems to be more cost effective. (TI is only smash/lethal resistance. Fire Shield gives about as much smash/lethal resitance AND fire/cold resistance AND disorient resistance).
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And you know something, my fire tanker only has two attacks currently but I keep stealing aggro from the SS tanker with provoke-punch
[/ QUOTE ] Dont forget that all tanker attacks have taunts to them including damage armours, such as blazing aura. That can steal aggro easily if the other tank is just using attacks to maintain aggro.
Dirges
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And you know something, my fire tanker only has two attacks currently but I keep stealing aggro from the SS tanker with provoke-punch
[/ QUOTE ] Dont forget that all tanker attacks have taunts to them including damage armours, such as blazing aura. That can steal aggro easily if the other tank is just using attacks to maintain aggro.
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Actually, I don't have Blazing Aura.
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I started a fire/fire tank recently.
Now, I'm not too high level yet, but I team with an Invulnerability/SS tanker occasionally.
Not only are my defensive toggles cheaper (fire shield and plasma shield compared to TI plus unyielding), but my attacks seem cheaper too. And you know something, my fire tanker only has two attacks currently but I keep stealing aggro from the SS tanker with provoke-punch, and the SS tanker has twice as many attacks (which may also be a cause of the endurance problem). I also end fights with twice the endurance he does (and that's assuming I don't use Consume).
Conculsions: First, SS doesn't seem to be able to keep up damage-wise at low level against fire. I assume this will only get worse. And that's the fire secondary. SS also costs far more endurance than fire, which if it can't keep up, just isn't fair. If Rage were too be able to be used more often, it might be more equal. Secondly, I now think TI costs too much endurance. It doesn't do as much as Fire Shield, but Fire Shield seems to be more cost effective. (TI is only smash/lethal resistance. Fire Shield gives about as much smash/lethal resitance AND fire/cold resistance AND disorient resistance).
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I think the problem here is not Invuln or SS, but Fire. Every set with Fire in its name in CoH (with the exception of blaster fire secondary) is very, very, very good indeed.
Fire Blast- AOE DOOM
Fire Imps- I mean 'Firey Control', dont I?
Firey Melee- Woot! AOE AND Good Single-Target!
Firey Armour- Burn, Baby, Burn. And as you said, broader and cheaper toggles. And more 'utility' than Invuln.
Dev's say *YES* to Fire Toons!
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Therefore, the "normal" method of perma-Rage plus 6-slotted damage has an overall damage of 369% with no increased endurance efficiency but with 17% less attacks needed for the same damage as the previous method.
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i never said double rage was perma with 3 rech first of all. 2nd your numbers do not show how many times you miss an attack.
5 Slotting for damage with single rage is 400% cap. Test:Hit someting with rage with 6 slotted dmg then remove one slot hit something again and you'll find that there is no change in damage.
so how can 6 slotting it for damage improve your build?
also what exactly is the ""normal" method of perma-Rage"? I've seen many builds with just 2 recharges....so 6 slotting dmg on an attack would equate to a lot of missed hits if that is the ""normal" method of perma-Rage"