[ QUOTE ]
They said they removed the self-root from our powers because it prevented us doing our job. To me this was an acknowledgement of what I had said about Unyielding Stance all along, "that it was no penalty to a solo tank but was a drawback to a team tank".
The penalty to new Rage is exactly the same. Now does that seem appropriate for a tank power?
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Being rooted was a detrement to a team because the Tanker became a taunt bot having to bring the bad guys to him/her in order to use status protection...this meant that anyone without taunt (like myself) was automatically seen as a 'gimped' tank. There are TONS of mobs that use mez and stun attacks, protection from it is absolutely necessary to be an effective Tanker.
I do NOT need to do more damage to be an effective Tanker. Now I am an INV Tank, so I have Invincibility to aggro all the mobs for me, but every tank powerset has something they can use in the same way. Stone has mudpots which can grab the mobs and keep them around him forcefully, Ice has ice slick and other slowing powers, fire has the aura that damages all enemies around them...all of these things grab aggro along with whatever damage the Tanker is doing. So if I'm on a squishy team and I know that the players I'm with are not bright enough to keep themselves alive for the ten second downtime of Rage, then I simply don't use it.
By the way, I am not saying that this is the best downside the Devs could come up with...but if some of you think the downside is that bad and "not fun" then what is an alternative? I haven't seen a single alternate downside suggestion in the posts I've read.
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By the way, I am not saying that this is the best downside the Devs could come up with...but if some of you think the downside is that bad and "not fun" then what is an alternative? I haven't seen a single alternate downside suggestion in the posts I've read.
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If you haven't seen any alternative solutions then you haven't been looking. You've skipped over my signiture too.
The current consensus seems to be that they change the period of inactivity to a 100% damage debuff. We could still attack and try and gain aggro but could not do any damage.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Thank you, Eviltrickster. Good post.
The issue here is some tankers (not all, but some) are just mad that they can't level as fast as they used to. Rage was meant to be a "last resort" power, like MoG. You need a big boost to take out a boss, AV, or monster? You got into a rage, and kick its butt. Rage was not meant to be turned on or off like a shield, nor was it meant to be an "everyday" power like Swipe or Thunder Kick. Rage is like Nova. You now use it when you have to make a big offensive punch, and then afterwards deal with the side effects.
Many tankers don't like this because they were used to hitting rage all the time and slicing through plus 5 lvl cons and getting massive XP. NOBODY else can do this. It's an exploit. An obvious exploit. An imbalance in the game.
I'm very happy the Devs find these imblances and fix them, and then ignore whiners who complain about the fix. It shows they care about the game, and how it is supposed to be played.
Bravo to them. Best devs in the business when it comes to costumers, no question.
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If it isnt ment to be an "everyday" power then maybe the devs shoulda just made it harder or impossible to make perma (like Unstoppable) I dont care about it "makeing me level slower" cause it doesnt, what I care about is the power being fun to use, which it isnt IMO and thats what the forums are, opinions.
Jagged you're right, i totally missed your sig. Good to see an attempt at coming up with a solution. most people posting complaints about Rage on these boards have not done so.
. . . . . . . .
bluething, how is Rage less fun now than it was before mobile mez protection?
Before mobile unyielding or rooted or whatever, Rage gave you X amount of time to beat everything up before you became stunned and dropped all your toggles, putting you and your teammates in danger.
Now, Rage gives you X amount of time to beat stuff up before you become 'winded' and unable to act for ten seconds. This poses no real danger to you, but can lose your aggro and create danger for your teammates.
So the danger to your teammates is the same...which change makes it no longer fun, the ten seconds of inactivity or the fact that your toggles don't drop now unless you badly manage your endurance?
the original Rage was a situational power that had a downside that made it a bad idea to use all the time or in a big heated battle with a team.
the new Rage is a situational power that has a downside that makes it a bad idea to use all the time (unless solo) or in a big heated battle with a team.
Too many people got used to the wonderful feeling of permaRage/permaUnstoppable or permaRage/mobile mez protection. Too bad that it was totally unbalanced and unfair to the other powersets who have nothing like it.
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I did not realize that Mace was that bad. Never played that powerset. Hasn't really fit any of my character concepts yet. But I am sure I will get around to it. 
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Oh, it's far from bad. I've never felt that my damage output was anything other than perfectly fine. Hell, I thought it was fine before they raised it back in I2. I was mostly just making the point that, with or without Rage, SS isn't as bad off as a lot of people seem to be making it out to be, and that the lowered damage looks to have been intended as a balancing factor.
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Actually, I would trade my disorient and knockup for more damage, on everything but Knockout Blow and Footstomp. It can be fun to do a chain of knockdowns on a boss, but it is not a sure thing. Even Knockout Blow does not always knock the bad guy over, and it has the best chance. But more damage? That always does what it is supposed to. 
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That seems to be a reflection of the relative ineffectiveness of pretty much ALL the secondary effects, unfortunately. Unless you're a dedicated debuffer/controller or don't care about damage enough to be willing to slot those effects, they're simply not potent enough to be anything more than a somewhat neat "extra". And until the game becomes more than strictly combat (and therefore damage) oriented, most people aren't going to bother. Personally, I really enjoyed slotting a disorient in my attacks, it made a noticable difference and made me feel like I was doing a bit more than just taunting and absorbing damage in a team - I couldn't keep up with the scappers and blasters as far as damage went, but I could do a bit of low-end controlling by keeping people woozy. Even then, though, with a good team we'd be scything through most everyone fast enough that my little bit of control wasn't really needed.
However, this is more of a topic for the general CoH discussion threads, or the tanker forums, so I'll zip up and bring it back to topic by adding my voice to the calls for some kind of audible or visual cue that your power's cycling down. If these things are meant to be temporary it'd be nice to have a way of knowing things are crashing - we can't feel what the hero feels, after all.
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...Too many people got used to the wonderful feeling of permaRage/permaUnstoppable or permaRage/mobile mez protection. Too bad that it was totally unbalanced and unfair to the other powersets who have nothing like it.
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Actually all of the other tanker powersets DO have something like it...Build Up, which has no penalty other than it can't be made perma, and it takes five more slots to reach its best potential.
Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.
Even if you make Build Up 40% overall that is still just a 25% base damage advantage for Rage. That's equivalent to a single 50 influence damage inspiration. That's hardly something that made Super Strength "unbalanced" or "unfair", except perhaps to War Mace, which is decidedly the worst tanker secondary and needs some love. Further, if you used Rage the way you suggest, only situationally for AVs and/or big bosses, then it would be providing potentially much less than Build Up because Build Up has none of the disadvantages, which means it can be used in every battle, multiple times.
Now, all that aside, I'm not one to curse Rage or defend it. I think it provides a good benefit, with a tolerable penalty. My main complaint with it is that it isn't fun. The stun wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, the 100% endurance drop wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, and the 10-second stand there like an idiot with you buttons frozen isn't fun either. TONS of suggestions for alternatives have been made in this thread and the couple of other active Rage threads. Frankly I don't see how you could have missed them if you've read the threads at all.
Hardly anyone at all has complained about no damage for 10 seconds. But what most people across the board have agreed upon is that tankers should still be able to Taunt or have taunt auras during the crash (even if the taunt is reduced a bit). At least then you wouldn't have to go through button-mashing annoyance every two minutes or feel like an inanimate sack of meat.
Dwimble
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Hardly anyone at all has complained about no damage for 10 seconds. But what most people across the board have agreed upon is that tankers should still be able to Taunt or have taunt auras during the crash (even if the taunt is reduced a bit). At least then you wouldn't have to go through button-mashing annoyance every two minutes or feel like an inanimate sack of meat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted and highlighted for empathsis.
While I do appreciate Statesman taking the time out of his busy schedule to answer my PM, his answer still left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.
I don't care about the damage boost; it's the fact that I cannot work to protect my team if I use Rage that bugs me the most.
[ QUOTE ]
Now, all that aside, I'm not one to curse Rage or defend it. I think it provides a good benefit, with a tolerable penalty. My main complaint with it is that it isn't fun. The stun wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, the 100% endurance drop wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, and the 10-second stand there like an idiot with you buttons frozen isn't fun either. TONS of suggestions for alternatives have been made in this thread and the couple of other active Rage threads. Frankly I don't see how you could have missed them if you've read the threads at all.
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I don't read the Tanker forums, and I have not read this whole thread, only the last 5 or 6 pages...never claimed I did. The only alternatives I've seen are a proposal to simply make the recharge longer so it can't be perma'd, and one other thread that really didnt have any good ideas.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with the fun thing. I love Rage as it is. It allows me to take on and take down enemies higher than I would normally be able to without it because of it's damage increase and accuracy increase, and it seems to last a lot longer than Focus Chi lasts on my Scrapper. I haven't timed them, I dont know whether one recharges faster or can be used more often or what, I just know it works for me. Ten seconds doesn't seem too long to me...by the time I even notice I'm not attacking after pressing the button 3 or 4 seconds have already gone by and then bam it's done and I'm back to bashing heads.
Maybe I'll change my mind after I do the new IP task force this weekend with my Tanker, but somehow I doubt it.
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...Too many people got used to the wonderful feeling of permaRage/permaUnstoppable or permaRage/mobile mez protection. Too bad that it was totally unbalanced and unfair to the other powersets who have nothing like it.
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Actually all of the other tanker powersets DO have something like it...Build Up, which has no penalty other than it can't be made perma, and it takes five more slots to reach its best potential.
Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.
Even if you make Build Up 40% overall that is still just a 25% base damage advantage for Rage. That's equivalent to a single 50 influence damage inspiration. That's hardly something that made Super Strength "unbalanced" or "unfair", except perhaps to War Mace, which is decidedly the worst tanker secondary and needs some love. Further, if you used Rage the way you suggest, only situationally for AVs and/or big bosses, then it would be providing potentially much less than Build Up because Build Up has none of the disadvantages, which means it can be used in every battle, multiple times.
Now, all that aside, I'm not one to curse Rage or defend it. I think it provides a good benefit, with a tolerable penalty. My main complaint with it is that it isn't fun. The stun wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, the 100% endurance drop wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, and the 10-second stand there like an idiot with you buttons frozen isn't fun either. TONS of suggestions for alternatives have been made in this thread and the couple of other active Rage threads. Frankly I don't see how you could have missed them if you've read the threads at all.
Hardly anyone at all has complained about no damage for 10 seconds. But what most people across the board have agreed upon is that tankers should still be able to Taunt or have taunt auras during the crash (even if the taunt is reduced a bit). At least then you wouldn't have to go through button-mashing annoyance every two minutes or feel like an inanimate sack of meat.
Dwimble
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/agree
Also, with a good defender you could always work around rages penaltys, THAT is team work not over powered or broken. Now you cant do anything but sit and wait, 10 seconds doesnt seem like much but when you play for hours it adds up and feels longer and longer and longer every time ^^
I took Stamina (6 slotted) and Conserve Power (6 slotted) and put endurance reductions in all my toggles and attacks just so I wouldnt have to stand around doing nothing...... *pauses for effect (10 seconds)* Okay probly didnt get much effect outa that ;p but anyhow. Even without the 10 sec nose pick break I have to be careful for running out of endurance cause Rage and Hasten will both spank me if I'm not alert ^^
This is an action game ACTION, standing around isnt why I play, if I wanted to stand around I would go play DAoC or SWG or WoW where I could spend hours standing around crafting aprons and widdleing wood.
Now dont be angery at me for my opion I'm not upset cause other people have opinions of there own (only dissapointed that you havent conformed to my brain washing) Just shareing my thoughts and opinions and like a butt everyone has it and it stinks.
EDIT: Oh yeah! I'm thinking of trying a Fire/- tank now so I have something else to complain about when they get the nerf bat (just kidding about the nerf thing, calm down all you fire tanks :P)
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Actually all of the other tanker powersets DO have something like it...Build Up, which has no penalty other than it can't be made perma, and it takes five more slots to reach its best potential.
Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.
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You can activate max-slotted buildup about 5 times in 120 seconds, which is probably slightly over 5 seconds total cast time lost, and would cost 37 endurance. Not too far off from rage.
Perma-rage also has the acc bonus, which might let the rage-user remove a few acc from attacks.
It's mostly a question of preference. Rage is more powerfull, buildup is safer to use.
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Actually all of the other tanker powersets DO have something like it...Build Up, which has no penalty other than it can't be made perma, and it takes five more slots to reach its best potential.
Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.
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You can activate max-slotted buildup about 5 times in 120 seconds, which is probably slightly over 5 seconds total cast time lost, and would cost 37 endurance. Not too far off from rage.
Perma-rage also has the acc bonus, which might let the rage-user remove a few acc from attacks.
It's mostly a question of preference. Rage is more powerfull, buildup is safer to use.
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Actually, Build up has twice the ACC bonus that Rage does, I believe.
Rage gives +25% ACC.
Build Up gives +50% ACC.
I'm sure someone will blast me if I'm wrong.
Not a blast Goldie, just a minor correction 
The numbers I've seen most quoted for the accuracy buff for the two skills:
Build Up: 50%
Rage: 40%
Obviously these are unenhanced, but this begs the question:
Is it because the fact that most people put more recharge enhancers into Build Up (to make it as near perma as possible), where Rage users have the freedom to slot one or two to-hit buff enhancers (I have one in Rage, plus two rechargers) yet another 'buff', at least in the developers eyes?
Rage needs to have more drawbacks.
Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.
How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.
This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.
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Rage needs to have more drawbacks.
Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.
How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.
This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.
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My reaction
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Not a blast Goldie, just a minor correction
The numbers I've seen most quoted for the accuracy buff for the two skills:
Build Up: 50%
Rage: 40%
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One minor correction to your minor correction...the number I've seen most quoted for Rage's Acc boost is 25%.
Who knows where it really is, since Accuracy is a bit difficult to test. Maybe I'll have to mess around with that Hero stats thingamajig and see if I can nail it down.
On a purely subjective note, I don't think it is 40% because that would be bettter than having an SO Accuracy in an attack, and it just doesn't seem that good. I recently replaced my Acc in all my attacks and went to using Rage all the time. Before putting any To Hit Buffs in it, I tried playing with just the default bonus and it definitely seemed like I was missing significantly more than when attacking with Acc SOs and no Rage. If it was 40% then I should actually have been hitting more. After putting one To Hit Buff in it, it seemed pretty much back to normal, which is what you'd expect if it's 25% because one To Hit SO would bring that up to 33.25%. I went ahead and put a second To Hit in it for good measure because missing with Knockout Blow is just depressing. I still miss occasionally, but not very much unless I'm fighting +4s or above.
The only downside to this is you HAVE to hit Rage every two minutes or whiff whiff whiff, and you have to deal with being forced into spectator mode every two minutes.
Dwimble
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[ QUOTE ]
Rage needs to have more drawbacks.
Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.
How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.
This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.
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My reaction
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OMG I cant stop laughing, I'll give a big /AGREE on that reaction.
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Rage needs to have more drawbacks.
Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.
How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.
This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.
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My reaction
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Yeah I have to agree. I know there are some busy bodies that think rage was actually built into SS by design to compensate for a pretty mediocre set of attacks, and to bring it somewhere close to, but still behind several other tanker melees. Hogwash. I think that since it adds 80% to our damage-they only way to compensate this is to subtract 80% from the exp of everthing we kill when we use it.. ANy maybe 1 bar of debt acrrued upon activation. Something like that seems fair.... 
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I have to agree. I know there are some busy bodies that think rage was actually built into SS by design to compensate for a pretty mediocre set of attacks, and to bring it somewhere close to, but still behind several other tanker melees. Hogwash. I think that since it adds 80% to our damage-they only way to compensate this is to subtract 80% from the exp of everthing we kill when we use it.. ANy maybe 1 bar of debt acrrued upon activation. Something like that seems fair....
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and once again 
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Yeah I have to agree. I know there are some busy bodies that think rage was actually built into SS by design to compensate for a pretty mediocre set of attacks, and to bring it somewhere close to, but still behind several other tanker melees. Hogwash. I think that since it adds 80% to our damage-they only way to compensate this is to subtract 80% from the exp of everthing we kill when we use it.. ANy maybe 1 bar of debt acrrued upon activation. Something like that seems fair....
[/ QUOTE ]
and once again
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STOP IT! I cant breath!!!!!11one
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Just got my response from Statesman to my post. Short, sweet, to the point:
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Rage is a situational power, not one to be used constantly. Therefore, it doesn't undermine the Tanker's primary roles.
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Given his response, and the results of testing by others, it does seem that the penalty is not quite as harsh, so I'll be trying to get some testing in this weekend (kinda hard since, as most weekends, I'll be working).
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Primary role...sounds like meat shield to me.
As I have said before none of the changes to Rage do not stop it from being used more than situationally.
All that it means now is that it will be a CYA for people that team with a Inv/SS Tank running Rage.
This game is still focused on damage = experience = leveling, until that changes reducing the damage on SS Tanks in this manner is obscene.
Let Rage have 2 penalties; Defense Debuff and the endurance drain, but also increase the recharge.
Better yet, test it out.
Thats funny....Regen pretty much undermines the Scrapper Primaries and Makes a scrapper a tank......
SS has horrible DPS , horrible End cost, and even with Rage I find the Damage lack luster. How about this drop the end drain on and the no taunt on Rage and fix SS because it drains way too much end.
The endurance cost of the set is something of a marvel. I cant remember if I have posted this before but... I have all toggles and attacks slotted with and endurance cost reducer and I have 6 slotted stamina, short of useing conserver power I run out of endurance extremely fast if I do anything other than taunt and casually toss a Foot stomp or Knockout blow. Add to that the endurance drop from Hasten for those who use it and from Rage for those who use it and good lord, it gets real boreing real quick when you cant do anything but stand there and taunt not to mention if you used Rage you get to stand there and do even less.
That is why it takes the fun out of it. Its not Rage alone, its a combination of endurance cost and endurance drop. But the changes to Rage have put all the focus on it and IMO for good reason.
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Thats funny....Regen pretty much undermines the Scrapper Primaries and Makes a scrapper a tank......
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Yeah, that must be why you see so many regens that herd puppies :/
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Rage is a really good power that lasts a lot longer than Build Up or it's equivalents. A power that boosts you by this much has to have some sort of a downside (this means that simply upping the recharge time won't cut it, it's powerful enough it has to have a downer). Since the original downside was negated by the developers giving us mobile mez protection they had to come up with a new downside.
.
Rage was semi-situational before the mobile mez protection. You could use it perma, but you had to be careful of the timing and it could cost you or your teamates if you weren't.
.
Mostly perma-Rage was only used by people who used Perma-Unstoppable. Then with I3 Rage became that way for everyone with mobile mez protection like Unyielding.
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Now it's back to being something that you can use a lot of the time, but you have to be careful and watch it or it can cost you or your teammates...ok, mostly just your teammates.
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Agree with all the above ...
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So there really isn't that much of a difference between Rage as it initially worked (non-perma Unstoppable) and how it works now, except that the Tanker him/herself is actually in LESS danger than they were before (i.e no toggle drop).
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It just really bothers me when I hear people start mouthing off about how 'this power sucks' or 'it needs to be changed' or 'just replace it with Build Up', etc. I would love it if there was no downside and I could run it perma all the time since I run Unyielding all the time too, but no one can honestly say that would be even remotely fair.
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... but I have to disagree with the conclusions you draw.
New Rage is actually MUCH easier to use now and IMO can be used in a lot more situations.
They said they removed the self-root from our powers because it prevented us doing our job. To me this was an acknowledgement of what I had said about Unyielding Stance all along, "that it was no penalty to a solo tank but was a drawback to a team tank".
The penalty to new Rage is exactly the same. Now does that seem appropriate for a tank power?
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04