[ QUOTE ]
In my example, I repeatedly referred to people on a team unable to do their jobs. Exactly for this reason. You were, by your and my lights, unable to do your job on a team, but neither can anyone else fighting groups of mobs 4 or 5 levels higher then them.
[/ QUOTE ] Good point, conceded. It is for THIS reason that I'm going to repeat my sample this weekend.
... See? I like debating this stuff with people who have good valid points. Forces good compromise and learning. 
[ QUOTE ]
And my contention is that now, with Rage 3.0, you can do your job just as well, in general, as any other archetyp can do their jobs when fighting opponents that are 4 or 5 levels higher then they are.
[/ QUOTE ] Good contention, I'll go and try and prove or disprove it this weekend, then report back. 
[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of like a blaster saying I would have been happy dropping like a fly after novaing that group of +4/+5 mobs if I had managed to kill all but the bosses in a single shot.
[/ QUOTE ] I dislike that analogy, but I'll concede it in an effort to promote good will, understanding, and a better CoH game for us all to enjoy.
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
Ok folks here is my aggro test results:
Iron Vixen aggro test
I am surprised and pleased with this result.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, no. There is no "public discussion" when a player is whining about something stupid. When someone is upset that they can't take on plus 5 minions and bosses, that's not discussion. That's whining. And when they continue to whines because this or that doesn't work the way it used to and prevetns them from attacking said plus 5 baddies, that too is whining.
[/ QUOTE ]
An entirely subjective judgement on your part. Much like someone judging you to be a troll.
[ QUOTE ]
And for some reason, you're defending the whining. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Not defending anything. Just pointing out the silliness and hypocrisy of your original post.
[ QUOTE ]
After getting rage and using it on various enemies last night, not once did I have a problem. grouped, soloed, etc. with my final conclusion I express this:
Why in gods good name would you still complain about rage. Having a 400-500 hit knockout blow with two recharge SO's in it, is amazing. Also there is like LITTLE penalty. Most likely by the time you jump into a big fight you'll already have shot off a taunt and hit a few enemies, thus securing aggro for the few moments you're not able to fight.
By the time you get back in, if the aggro is broken, taunt will be up to the task.
[/ QUOTE ]
i've been using Rage steadily since the change and there's only been one death during that downtime... Maybe you guys are just teaming with bad players? Cause most all of the teams that i'm on are able to survive for a few seconds without me. I mean seriously, are you saying that when you die your whole team dies 10 seconds later? That's some pretty bad players your playing with. There have been times where I've been the highest lvl player on the team and seriously messed up and died within the first 15 seconds of battle (forgot to turn my toggles back on..heh) and my team survived long enough to rez me and get me back in the fight.
Rage as it stands is superb. I wish people would just shut up and quit whining before they change into something worse. I agree that the last version wasn't that great but even then I used it regularly. This version is even better but I worry that if we keep whining they'll just ditch it altogether...and I love the power as it stands.
basicaly... Rage rocks... Devs... pllease please please leave it as it is and ignore these people
[ QUOTE ]
I mean seriously, are you saying that when you die your whole team dies 10 seconds later? That's some pretty bad players your playing with.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not excactly. All it takes is an AoE power after rage drops.
I've been teaming with a small team (me, Scrapper, Blaster). I've been running Rage virtually nonstop (non-perma, and non-auto, but I would usually start it at the start of fights and when it was available during a fight). We were on Heroic, but I was one level below the others at the end.
The drop is annoying, but manageable. The most annoying part is the only clue you really get that the crash is started is that your punches don't go when you hit the keys. Sure, the golden glow vanishes, but that's not very visible thru Invuln's light-show. It badly needs to let you know when the crash begins, maybe with a sound effect?
Not attacking for 10 seconds is a non-issue to me. It recovers some End (right after the drop) and gives me time to take stock of the situation.
I did lose aggro a few times, but never from a whole pack; usually it was just one guy. Firing Taunt just before the drop seemed to mitigate that almost completely, but I can't quite get the timing right yet. I do tend to get caught up in the action. Nobody died. Nobody came close as a result of the Rage drop; closest that we came to was the stealthed Ice Blaster moving into melee to drop an ice patch and getting tagged by an AoE disorient.
I commented often that I'd missed using Rage. It makes the game a lot more fun for me. An important litmus test right there, IMHO. It definitely feels a lot more super-strong with it than without.
Another important caveat is what happens when I'm in a huge team, but I wouldn't use Rage 1.0 there either, and Rage 3.0 seems like it could be used, at least sparingly, if not frequently as well.
If my concerns about Invincibility's def bonus can be put to rest, I think we can work with this. I still think it would make sense to retain Auravoke during the drop though.
The new rage seems to be a useful tool. It's design allows a tanker (particularly SS) to be both a team character, and allow solo play.
If you're a tank in a team, and your primary goal is to maintain aggro, simply don't use rage. Keep the punchvoke/taunt aggro going & let the damage dealers do their job.
If you're soloing, Rage is excellent. Admitidly, I don't currently have it, but I will be respec into it at 44 (currently 43).
THE DEVS ONLY NEED TO FIX UNSTOPPABLE. It's absolutely useless to a tank as is now. Either change the power from resistance to defense or psy res.
What I'll respec to at 44, making what I hope will be a solo & team juggernaut.
RPD - 1 RES
TI - 1 RES
UNY - 6 RES
REL - 4 RES
REN - 4 RES
JAB - 5 DAM
PUNCH 5 DAM
KOB - 6 DAM
FOOTS 6 DAM
RAGE -6 RECHARGE RED
TAUNT 1 RANGE
HURDLE 1
SWIFT 1
STAM 6 -RECH RED
CJ 1 DEF
SJ 1
ACRO 3
HASTEN 6 RECHARGE
AIR SUP 6 DAM
CONSERVE E 6 RECHARGE
And I believe "laser eyes" is available at 44. 98% S&L res, 16% Def with toggles running, Rage for extra damage, stamina & conserve to keep it all running.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean seriously, are you saying that when you die your whole team dies 10 seconds later? That's some pretty bad players your playing with.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not excactly. All it takes is an AoE power after rage drops.
[/ QUOTE ]
seen it used... seen everybody live after.... again... you just need a good team where everybody does there job... small or big... if everyone is doing there job they should survive the 10 seconds just fine.. i've used it with a team of 8 and a team of 4... the team of 8 had 2 controllers 2 blasters 2 scrappers a tanker and a defender.... the 2 blasters were using AoE damage a lot and used it during the drop and still lived with no problem... i'm worried that if they change rage yet again it won't be so good this time.... face facts... there will always be some sort of disadvantage when rage drops... and it's not going to be a disadvantage you like... if it's a disadvantage you like then it's probably not a disadvantage.... personally i think rage needs a bigger disadvantage... i think it should be like it is but with a large def debuff... say 25% or so
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In reponse to more of your whining:
[/ QUOTE ] Please learn to read.
[/ QUOTE ]
I read your post just fine. It was, and still is, whining.
[ QUOTE ]
1) The blaster SHOULD have been getting his butt kicked. He's a blaster with only a lvl 29 tanker available to take the damage the baddies are laying down. I'm curious to know how many groups you were fighting, becuase if it was 2 or more groups, you SHOULD have a hard time and you SHOULD get your butt handed to you.
[/ QUOTE ] One group, of even cons, of 5 or 6 enemies. I lost aggro, both other teammates went down. I did not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, you lost agro because you are trying to agro cons plus 4-5 lvls higher than you. Your teammates should have sked you. This is what happens now when you fight baddies 4 or 5 lvls higher than you. Your powers are not as effective against them. That simple.
[ QUOTE ]
3) I state again, you should NOT be able to agro and take on plus 4 or 5 cons. It is literally THAT simple, especially if those cons are multiple groups. I believe the devs have targetted this as an OBVIOUS exploit and/or broken feature and they are correcting it. Tankers used to agroing plus 4 or 5 level cons (and getting moocho xp from the agro) will have to adjust and fight lower lvl cons... like the rest of us.
[/ QUOTE ] You are confusing "agro" and "the ability to arrest enemies". Please quit doing so and confine your "debates" to a single subject. As it is, these types of arguments are used by the worst sort of politicians.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, there's nothing to debate here. You lost agro because of your lvl.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, don't like it? fine. Play WoW. Hephaestus is dead on with his/her comments! Whiney tankers doing mssns with blasters 3-4 levels higher than them are complaining that they can't hold agro against plus 5 cons in multiple groups. Plz, cry me a river.
[/ QUOTE ] If you are going to attempt an intellectual debate, I would suggest:
1) That you keep your comments to the topic at hand, i.e. Rage.
2) Refrain from sarcasm, as it only cheapens and degrades your point, making you seem as if the only point that you have is that you need to feel superior and are willing to degrade any viewpoint that's not your own in order to do so.
3) Learn to spell, type, or correct whatever your issue is so that you are not seen as incompetent, inferior, or otherwise out of your league.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) The comments are part of a much larger picture, that of game balance. The issue in question involves you losing argo against a group of plus 4 lvl cons because the Rage penalty kicked in. Rage, as defined by the game, is "An unconscious Rage comes over you, sending you into a berserker fury. While Raging your damage is greatly increased, but when it subsides you become Disoriented and are easier to hit for a brief time. During this disoriented phase, you lost agro against the cons... because that's what happens now when the Rage penalty kicks in. Plus, it didn't help that you were trying to do this against plus 4 lvl cons.
Why?
Because your agro is not as effective against higher lvl cons. I'd draw little pictures for you outlining this obvious game trait, but you might find that insulting and sacrastic, which leads me to:
2) Sacrasm is fun! It makes light of an issue that is of really no importance. Please understand, no one CARES that you lost agro. We know why you did. You lose agro when the Rage penalty kicks in. That's how it works now. Again, Rage is meant as a last resort power, a boost power. The Devs recognized that tankers were using Rage and, when the penalty kicked in, they had agroed the cons so that they are uselessly pounded on a disoriented tanker while the blaster is still nuking them. They changed it. Why? Because that's not how Rage is supposed to work. Whitch leeds mme 2:
3) People who get upset about spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, or anything like that in a game forum are dorks. That simple.
[ QUOTE ]
Buddy, please please please, grow up.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm perfectly willing to have a grown up conversation when you start making grown up points. It's obvious you don't want to change your play style to fit a much needed game balance fix. You are whining that your tanker can't hold agro while he's panting and tired after going into an uncontrollable RAGE, yet you say I need to grow up.
Whatever.
Just got my response from Statesman to my post. Short, sweet, to the point:
[ QUOTE ]
Rage is a situational power, not one to be used constantly. Therefore, it doesn't undermine the Tanker's primary roles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given his response, and the results of testing by others, it does seem that the penalty is not quite as harsh, so I'll be trying to get some testing in this weekend (kinda hard since, as most weekends, I'll be working).
Here is the main problem with the new Rage. It has nothing to do with aggro or anything else.
It is, quite simply, not fun. It's not fun to stand there totally unable to act for ten seconds every two minutes.
This is a game. People play games in order to have fun. Anything that takes away from that fun does not belong in the game.
I don't think you will find ANY tank who says that the new Rage is fun. I sure don't think it is. But in order to avoid the un-fun part of Rage, I have to give up doing decent damage, which is also un-fun.
This was the problem with the original Rage. Getting chain-mezzed because it dropped and stunned you was not fun.
The same with the second version of Rage. Losing all your End, dropping your toggles, and being chain-mezzed was not fun.
While from the perspective of debt and experience the new Rage is far superior, it still is no better than the other two. Standing there like a moron while things pound on you, unable to respond, is not fun.
Once Rage is fixed so that it is fun, as anything in a game should be, the complaints will vanish.
As it is, if we want to have fun, we're penalized for it. The message given by all this is simple. "You're a tanker. You're not supposed to do damage."
"But we're superheroes!" you say in response. "We're supposed to bring the hurt to the badguys!"
"It doesn't matter, you have a role, that of meatshield, you're not supposed to do damage and we'll make sure that if you do you're penalized for it."
It's supposed to be a game... but how is this fun?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This punchvoek thing makes no sense to me. Enemy aggro has always been based on amount of damage dealt. How is this anything new? A blaster tossing out a heavy AoE or a scrapper landing a critical will just steal the aggro from us... just like it used to.
Before you flame me for being "ignorant" on the subject of punchvoke.. keep in mind that the tank I play readily is Invul/Fire... Invincibility and my harsh AoEs have worked for me before punchvoke and I haven't noticed any real change since.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, let me cover how punch-voke works in a nutshell. As you know more damage=more aggro, this is why we used to have to use Taunt and/or Provoke like mad in the old days. We did tolerable damage, but not enough in many situations. What punch-voke does is it makes mobs in the "punch-voke envelope" get more aggro at you, the more damage you cause to any mobs in this area (I believe it's roughly equal to your melee area or slightly larger, although I know LBE has some of this too, since I can pull a half dead Boss off my BS/Regen Scrapper friend with one LBE shot, so it may also be a small area or just a single target for Tanker ranged attacks, which are few anyway) the more aggro you get against them all! It does not kick in till 5th level and then it scales up as you level. It still is more effective, the more damage you cause, just like normal aggro, but it affects all mobs in this area. It's quite nice in the 40s-50. I can hold a ton of mobs on me, by attacking and I also have Taunt to cement them to me.
Tomorrow, I shall be testing some Rage aggro theories, and shall report my findings. Let's see how this shall work out.
[/ QUOTE ]
IIf you don't mind me asking... I thought of a couple questions about this.
Is the "hate" that punchvoke induces cumulative? I mean, does the aggro level grow the more you attack and the more damage you cause?
Let's just say I'm playing a non-"aggro-aura" Tank (no Invincibiltiy, no Icicles, no Mudpots, etc) with no Taunt/Provoke and I'm only trying to keep aggro by punching things. If someone else from the team attacks with a much higher damage attack than my 50 DMG energy punch... will I lose aggro? Or does the damage I've done add up to increase my punchvoke power over time (for a limited duration i'm sure)?
Also, does this punchvoking ability diminish as you fight higher level foes? Sorta how accuracy and damage scale off? If so, that would explain the problem some aggro tests in here have caused when trying to fight +4-5s.
I only bring these up because they may (or may not) have more of an effect on aggro retention than the Rage drop. It might not be Rage, it might be the way punchvoke is designed.
Well, you did it MidniteRambler. You're the first poster to make my ignore list.
Congratulations. 
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
He'll be the first of, well, not many but more than a few. CoH has a great community but life really is too short for some things, y'know?
[ QUOTE ]
I tried the perma-Rage no crash bug, it got interrupted and I got chain held by Malta and killed before my empath friend could get off one heal. Now, if you did not have your Rage 2.0 cycle cut into, it was quite effective but we knew that it would not stay like that.
For about 2 hours or so, I soloed in PI today after Rage 3.0 went live. And I switched it from 3 recharge SOs back to my old pattern of 2 recharge and 1 To Hit buff SO (Rage is perma with 3 SOs sans Hasten). So it is back to 15 seconds of downtime minimum from 1 Rage to the earliest chance to use it again. The 10 seconds down soloing is not bad, although I am unsure of how well it will be in teams at this time.
As for your toggle-crashes? I am not sure here. I lost no toggles in my multiple uses of it today. I simply watched my end more closely then I used to. -25% end is far more manageable then -100% end, even though yes, the no end loss bug negated that, but we knew that was not going to stay. Now I for one am not doing cartwheels over Rage 3.0, but after experiencing 2.0s total end loss a couple times, I find it far more preferable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a fair point. That comes down to preference and that is fine. You are better with 25% end loss 10 seconds of no attacks. I'd rather have 0% and have my end regenerate up enough for me to act instead of waiting 10 seconds. I feel those are just a matter of preference but I do see your point and why you like 3.0 better than I do.
My main concern and what no one seems to be talking about (though I'm still reading through posts for the last couple of days) ... How is this version of Rage more Casual than using original Rage? My qestion is basd on this post (link)
I will concede that for soloing it might be tolerably "casual". If you lose track of your "egg timer" and you combat is simply just interrupted, only a few things like Sappers and such can really ruin your day as you stand actionless.
However, for teaming it is a huge inconvenience. Tankers seem to function as a steady flow of damage and agro management combined, especially with puch-voke. I've been told by poster to just hit a Taunt before my "egg timer" goes off and I'll hold agro for 5 seconds and only sweat 5 more... Post 40 if people go from 100% health to 0% health it normally happens in less than 5 seconds. I believe this also happens pre 40, but I'm just discussing what I know with the experience I've had with Rage 3.0.
If a tanker plays it perfect we still have an approximate 5 second window of lost agro maneagement ever couple minutes.
I'm still of the belief that this is less convenient, harder to keep track of and less "casual" to play that it ever was before. Unless the devs are just doing a back door "make it situational", I don't understand how it is more a casual to use power. It is now a power we have to monitor closely, especially in groups.
[ QUOTE ]
Just some informal research about the claims that the "devs are ignoring tankers."
Since the 1st of this year, Statesman has posted about tankers over 14 different times. Many of those about this rage change either in this thread or in threads on the test server.
Statesman has posted about Blasters once. At the beginning of the Blasters and Burn thread in this forum.
He posted a half dozen or so times in the controller issue thread before it was locked. There have been zero posts specifically about scrappers and defenders. Kheldians got the second most posts, mostly about upcoming changes and how Statesman himself saw the Kheldian AT being played.
So if Statesman and the devs were ignoring Tankers, I guess they just completely forgot that 3 other ATs in the game existed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I feel really bad for the poor ailing blasters. I sure do wish they were given what they need to be a fair and leveled AT with the rest of us....
I am so just kidding. I love blasters, and as this Rage situations is in flux ... well I hope it is... I've had fun gathering debt with my blaster yet burning it right back off again as quick as can be... that reminds me, need to update my sig.. got me a level on MB. WooT!
[ QUOTE ]
<snip>While I've been a very vocal opponent of Tanker Attitude since pre-issue 3 days, I'll be willing to sacrifice myself to test your Rage and Aggro management with Rage 3.0 on Test. <snip>
[/ QUOTE ]
Good thing we have non-tankers generous enough to keep stirring us up in forums discussing tanker issues.
(jeez, the sarcasm train is on the move tonight.. WOO WOO!)
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you, Eviltrickster. Good post.
The issue here is some tankers (not all, but some) are just mad that they can't level as fast as they used to. Rage was meant to be a "last resort" power, like MoG. You need a big boost to take out a boss, AV, or monster? You got into a rage, and kick its butt. Rage was not meant to be turned on or off like a shield, nor was it meant to be an "everyday" power like Swipe or Thunder Kick. Rage is like Nova. You now use it when you have to make a big offensive punch, and then afterwards deal with the side effects.
Many tankers don't like this because they were used to hitting rage all the time and slicing through plus 5 lvl cons and getting massive XP. NOBODY else can do this. It's an exploit. An obvious exploit. An imbalance in the game.
I'm very happy the Devs find these imblances and fix them, and then ignore whiners who complain about the fix. It shows they care about the game, and how it is supposed to be played.
Bravo to them. Best devs in the business when it comes to costumers, no question.
[/ QUOTE ]
For those receiving emails on this thread. Sorry about my last one. On re-read, I realized I was venting on my Invul/SS when this is just about */SS.
But I will stick with, When did this become a balancing issue? I thought it was making the power more casual? Did I miss something?
Again. after picking up and using rage for a little bit, I really dont see what everyone is complaining about.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok folks here is my aggro test results:
Iron Vixen aggro test
I am surprised and pleased with this result.
[/ QUOTE ]
just wanted to pipe in and say this is good info that I will play test as well. I hope this testimony evidense is accurate... now if we could only solve the problem of my team starting on a new group before my non-action period wears off, I might make this sucker work.
I guess I could make a macro. I guess the casual gamers will have time to type out "No... Don't.... ah man, sorry I couldn't taunt you bad players who were relying on teamwork with me playing the role of meat shield."
[ QUOTE ]
Good thing we have non-tankers generous enough to keep stirring us up in forums discussing tanker issues.
(jeez, the sarcasm train is on the move tonight.. WOO WOO!)
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanker or not, they have a right to an opinion, they pay their $15 a month just like you. I play all the AT's and I value the input from each of them. Plus this guy seemed to be offering to help, no need to flame him for it.
Be a hero!!
[ QUOTE ]
Just got my response from Statesman to my post. Short, sweet, to the point:
[ QUOTE ]
Rage is a situational power, not one to be used constantly. Therefore, it doesn't undermine the Tanker's primary roles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given his response, and the results of testing by others, it does seem that the penalty is not quite as harsh, so I'll be trying to get some testing in this weekend (kinda hard since, as most weekends, I'll be working).
[/ QUOTE ]
If that was his intention then it would seem as though he has completely failed.
I've not been able to test this with a team but solo I don't even notice the drop most of the time. My build is END efficient and I don't run perma-hasten so I am not at risk from the End drop. The 10 seconds inactivity happens most frequently while I run from one mob to the next. If it happens in battle, its "so what", I'm a tank and I am well use to standing round in combat doing nothing 
I see no reason why this power can't be run all the time. You'd think if that was the intention they would have just increased the recharge rate.
All in all, if Iron Vixens tests are anything to go by then the penalty of Rage 3 seems much less than Original Rage. Doesn't seem like a well designed power at all.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
[ QUOTE ]
Just got my response from Statesman to my post. Short, sweet, to the point:
[ QUOTE ]
Rage is a situational power, not one to be used constantly. Therefore, it doesn't undermine the Tanker's primary roles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given his response, and the results of testing by others, it does seem that the penalty is not quite as harsh, so I'll be trying to get some testing in this weekend (kinda hard since, as most weekends, I'll be working).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, since they have no intention of making Rage better than the power pool ability Hasten, they really should just lock this thread and bury it as we're just pleading at a brick wall.
Credit to Crevab for finding this:
[ QUOTE ]
Patch Notes sez: "Made all Tanker attack powers (secondary set) generate hate from all nearby foes. The more damage the power does, the greater the affected area. This effect does not kick in until after level 5, and slowly ramps up from there. The intent is to reduce a tanker's reliance on Taunt powers, and encourage the use of attack powers to keep villains attention on them. "
So, more damage=greater punch-voke radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully this helps you out, ProcessedMeatMan.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It has been my experience that no other archetype can reasonably expect to do their proper job in a team when fighting opponents that are 4 or 5 levels higher then them. Healers can't be effective enough at healing people, buffers' buffs don't help enough, debuffers don't hit often enough, controllers can't stop the mobs well enough, blasters can't hit enough or do enough damage, nor can scrappers. Why should /Invuln tankers be the exception to this rule?
[/ QUOTE ]Again, missing the point entirely.
The point is not that I should be effective against them. The point is that I should be overpowered by them when I try to draw their aggro. If I try to keep their aggro, I should drop, due to their overwhelming power.
This is not the case. The reverse is true. I was unable to keep aggro, and they were unable to drop me.
This is the issue I'm trying to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you missed my point. I understood very well that what you had a problem with was your inability to keeop aggro over the long term from a blaster 4 4levels higher then you fighting mobs 4 or 5 levels higher then you. You'll notice I never referred to you dying or not dying or doing damage or not doing damage. You're main job is to keep aggro while others kill the mobs. You recognize that, I recognize that. That's fine. You're secondary purpose is also to do some damage to the mobs and kill them faster, but the main one is to keep aggro. In my example, I repeatedly referred to people on a team unable to do their jobs. Exactly for this reason. You were, by your and my lights, unable to do your job on a team, but neither can anyone else fighting groups of mobs 4 or 5 levels higher then them. That's just the way it is. That's the way it was meant to be.
Just to repeat what I said: you should NOT be able, over the long term, to do what you were trying to do. If you could before, that was clearly not the intent of the designers. I have given plenty of evidence why this is so and have clearly pointed out how this applies to everyone else as well and why this is fair. I feel virtually certain your next post will be to quote me out of context as just saying the first sentence or two in this paragraph and then coming up with all kinds of counterarguments why those are wrong while blithely ignoring all the arguments I have already made in my previous post which counter your arguments. I won't repeat those arguments. It would be futile. If you choose to go a different route, great, we can continue the discussion.
[ QUOTE ]
I can already tell you that the results will be the same regardless of "enemy level differences"
When you have a team of 4+ players, and running Invincible missions, you'll routinely be facing mobs that are +4 to the person whose mission is selected, so the argument that my sample was flawed is actually invalid. However, to appease the bean-counters, I'll demonstrate the invalidity of this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, large teams fighting on Invincibility will get +4 level opponents. They won't get +5s, but they will typically get +4s and +3s. Not small teams on Invincible, but large ones will. This does not mean they should be able to accomplish them. They shouldn't. Not unless some of the people (and preferably the tank is one of them) are higher level then the person with the mission. As I said, soloing is a different story, but people basically can't do their job in a team when they are 4 or 5 levels below the mobs.
[ QUOTE ]
My contention is not whining that I can't take on +4's
[/ QUOTE ]
Other guy's arguments, not my own.
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that I can't do my job role due to the inability to keep aggro during Rage 3.0's downtime
[/ QUOTE ]
And my contention is that now, with Rage 3.0, you can do your job just as well, in general, as any other archetyp can do their jobs when fighting opponents that are 4 or 5 levels higher then they are.
[ QUOTE ]
I would have been happy if I had been able to keep aggro during Rage 3.0's downtime, and had fallen like a blind roofer, earning debt
[/ QUOTE ]
That's kind of like a blaster saying I would have been happy dropping like a fly after novaing that group of +4/+5 mobs if I had managed to kill all but the bosses in a single shot.
Both of you would just be trying to "do your job" and both of you would be asking for a lot more out of your abilities then you can reasonably expect.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru