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Teaming on the other hand was a different matter. It was a large 'train' mission, lots of mobs. Difficult to hold all the aggro.
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This is something I would like to test out in a team situation too. If I can find ways to hold aggro in the 10 second period, I am going to add the methods to my upcoming Invuln/SS guide. The only thing skewing it will be my huge Punch-Voke at 50. But if I can get a 50ish Blaster to team with me, and possibly other 50s too, to test this, I will post how I held aggro, or failing it, how I lost it.
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Hello- level 50 blaster with a penchant for AOE. 
I'm sorry. I'll be sure to start posting all responses that are supposed to be ironic/lighthearted in delicious pink text
Iron Vixen: While I've been a very vocal opponent of Tanker Attitude since pre-issue 3 days, I'll be willing to sacrifice myself to test your Rage and Aggro management with Rage 3.0 on Test. Even if I don't agree with how some of your AT has responded to these changes, I do think you've gone about working with what you were dealt very professionally as a single tanker. Give me a day and time and I'll bring the level 50 squishiness to die repeatedly for your amusement.
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Hello- level 50 blaster with a penchant for AOE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehe
Heya Matches, if we can a chance to test this, it would be great. I just want to see if the 10 second period will allow me to hold aggro, while being unable to perform hostile actions. If we can get this tested I can post it, and let others know.
Well we can do that, I would love to have a few different high level Blasters help me test out some aggro theories. We can even hunt in PI and find large groups and see. I will get a date/time here ASAP.
If only we organized like this and actually tested the changes before the patch went live...instead of arguing about how little damage SS tankers do compared to other builds.
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it would only take one small tweak to accomplish what the devs seem to want while still making itvery useful.
Someone has suggested that for the 10 seconds, instead of no attacks permitted, apply a massive (99%?) damage reduction on your attacks. Taunt still works, the provoke-attack still works. It even fits the concept, after the rage wears out your attacks will land very weakly on your opponents.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Well we can do that, I would love to have a few different high level Blasters help me test out some aggro theories. We can even hunt in PI and find large groups and see. I will get a date/time here ASAP.
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Ooooor, we can do wolves missions. :P Kidding. If you want to hunt to do it, that's cool. We should try to do some missions too.
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From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it would only take one small tweak to accomplish what the devs seem to want while still making itvery useful.
Someone has suggested that for the 10 seconds, instead of no attacks permitted, apply a massive (99%?) damage reduction on your attacks. Taunt still works, the provoke-attack still works. It even fits the concept, after the rage wears out your attacks will land very weakly on your opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]
does anyone know for sure if mud pots still works during that time? again i guess it's just me but i didn't have any real problems with the entire time last night... i guess i was just teaming with people who knew what they were doing... we were doing the manticore TF with a group of 8 and i used rage all throughout the TF and no one ever died during that 10 second period... and we only had 1 "real" healer... had a team of 1 tank (me) 2 controllers, 1 defender, 2 blasters and 2 scrappers ranged from 31-33 (i was 32) and no deaths during down time... ever
on the flip side.... is it just me or does taunt actually miss sometimes? many times i've tried using taunt to pull a bad guy of a teammate and have him never ever move.... am i doing something wrong?
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3. Some people don't mind the traditional role of a Tanker as a meat shield, other do. Most importantly, however, is that people seemed not to like to be a "provoke bot". It appeared that a Tanker's role was to sit there, take damage, and occasionally hit Provoke. A Tanker's attacks were nice, but pretty much an afterthought in the grand scheme of things. Well, that's not much fun after all. Provoke is fine; but the Tanker's attacks should be MORE important when combat gets started in holding aggro than shouting at various mobs.
4. The Burn change is a little too inconsistent with the role of a Tanker. A Tanker wants to keep aggro, not chase them away.
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A Tanker's role is to protect his teammates. That's what we'd like to optimize. At the moment, a Tanker is virtually undefeatable. In other words, a Tanker can take ENORMOUS amounts of damage. That's great for the Blasters, Defenders and Controllers who wouldn't otherwise be able to survive the encounter.
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These quotes are your own words, Statesman. I highlighted those specific parts for a reason. The changes made to Rage undermine these very sentiments that you expressed back in, in the 'My Morning with Geko' thread.
So, what happened? Why the sudden disconnect here? Why are Super Strength tankers being put into a position where their main method of providing more power to their attacks (something you yourself said a Tanker should be doing more) then makes it so that they cannot do their jobs as you stated in the 'Yes, I've been reading the boards' post?
I'm honestly confused, and would like to know why it is that you and the dev team seem to keep switching which side of the fence you're sitting on?
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What did the five fingers say to the face?
SLAP! 
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Of course, since you're a tanker, that barely hurt. You could use Rage to maybe possibly leave a mark for a short amount of time, but in the 10-15 seconds you are standing there doing nothing tired, I can run away or send you and your teammates to the hospital.
OH NOEZ, STATESMAN BROKE TANKERZ!11111!!!!one!!!!
Pink text = just kidding!
...or am I? Perhaps something to think about next time you are stuck in the middle of your 10 seconds of downtime.
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You'll make a great addition to City of Villains. A hero would never have said that. Have a great day, won't you?
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
[ QUOTE ]
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What did the five fingers say to the face?
SLAP!
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Of course, since you're a tanker, that barely hurt. You could use Rage to maybe possibly leave a mark for a short amount of time, but in the 10-15 seconds you are standing there doing nothing tired, I can run away or send you and your teammates to the hospital.
OH NOEZ, STATESMAN BROKE TANKERZ!11111!!!!one!!!!
Pink text = just kidding!
...or am I? Perhaps something to think about next time you are stuck in the middle of your 10 seconds of downtime.
[/ QUOTE ]
but hey, thanks for proving our point! What a powerful way to support our position!
Thank goodness for blasters who, um, uh, stand 100 yards away and run at the first sign of trouble... heroically running away, though
pink text = just kidding
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
[ QUOTE ]
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What did the five fingers say to the face?
SLAP!
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, since you're a tanker, that barely hurt. You could use Rage to maybe possibly leave a mark for a short amount of time, but in the 10-15 seconds you are standing there doing nothing tired, I can run away or send you and your teammates to the hospital.
OH NOEZ, STATESMAN BROKE TANKERZ!11111!!!!one!!!!
Pink text = just kidding!
...or am I? Perhaps something to think about next time you are stuck in the middle of your 10 seconds of downtime.
[/ QUOTE ]
but hey, thanks for proving our point! What a powerful way to support our position!
Thank goodness for blasters who, um, uh, stand 100 yards away and run at the first sign of trouble... heroically running away, though
pink text = just kidding
[/ QUOTE ]we dont run we sprint
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle
Ok now THAT was funny. And the blaster on our sg doesn't do either - she flies. And now that she has SO's and accuracy, that girl packs a MEAN wallop!
We LOVE blasters... heroic ones.
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
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Ok now THAT was funny. And the blaster on our sg doesn't do either - she flies. And now that she has SO's and accuracy, that girl packs a MEAN wallop!
We LOVE blasters... heroic ones.
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yes it's much better to stay and die then to run away... rest quickly and come back and actually help instead of laying on the ground smelling the floor
i like blasters who run away when they're almost dead... cause usually (being a tanker) i can survive without them for a little while... so if they run away... rest...and come back... i'm much happier then if they just stayed and died... ditto for all AT's.... it's much smarter and better teamwork to run away and recuperate then to stand there and die... since when has dieing helped anyone?
back on topic... i absolutely LOVE my tanker and have absolutely no problems with him whatsoever... i think rage is great where it is... i think it would be good to do the mild change where either taunt works or a 99% dam reduction instead but i'm hapy with the way it is now... i guess us new players who haven't played every AT out there up to 50 just aren't used to doing the damage of blasters or scrappers and therefore don't expect to
and the statement made that we're just provoke bots is a bunch of bunk... i've only got my attacks 4 slotted (1 acc, 1 end reduce, 2 dam) and i do enough damage to take down purple bosses solo... sometimes quicker then scrappers... all this whining about tankers being broke just makes me sick... if i'm on a good team and can get either SB or AM i feel like an unstoppable juggernaut, and have several times been the last man standing... and yet we're not powerful enougH?? please
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Thank goodness for blasters who, um, uh, stand 100 yards away and run at the first sign of trouble... heroically running away, though
[/ QUOTE ] and remember the lesson from page 50 in this thread from Friggin_taser... pink text = just kidding, no matter how mean-spirited and unheroic it might be. Just put it in pink text and wrap yourself in the glorious scent and luxurious feel of the first amendment 
On topic tho, there kinda isn't one anymore, is there? The rage change is live, it's there to deal with, and now that my tank is lvl 50, it's actually extraneous to continue. I invite people to join my sg and team with me because I like hangin out with them, not because of their archetype or damage mods at all, which I believe is the whole spirit of this game. Someone can be as powerful as they want - if they're mean, racist, or make it a point to get everyone killed because they personally don't care about debt, they're off the team. If it isn't fun in a $15.00 a month game, it's not worth doing for me. I'm so glad Detour hit 50, so I can say I climbed to the top of the mountain, did it the hard way, and won.
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
From what I have seen in other posts, it would look like Invinc is not providing any DEF during the 10 secs of down time from the Rage crash. So, for an Inv, not only can you not attack, you get a double whammy on your DEF, too.
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From what I have seen in other posts, it would look like Invinc is not providing any DEF during the 10 secs of down time from the Rage crash. So, for an Inv, not only can you not attack, you get a double whammy on your DEF, too.
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i'm not doubting this... but i don't see any difference to my def with granite on... even after the drop mobs still don't hit me very much or do very much damage
The difference is that Invincibility's def is based on the mobs around you, which in theory affects them. You can see this if you're fighting one of those CoT demons that has Invincibility -- standing next to them you get an Invincibility status icon that indicates a "foe +acc, +def buff".
It sounds very possible that the Rage drop would also disable that effect (especially since it disables the taunt), meaning that Invincibility loses a lot of its effectiveness during the drop. It also seems doubtful this was intentional.
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If only we organized like this and actually tested the changes before the patch went live...instead of arguing about how little damage SS tankers do compared to other builds.
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It wouldn't have changed anything. The release of Issue 3 demonstrated quite clearly how much regard the developers have for player testing lately.
I will be interested to see what comes of your testing. Unless something has changed that hasn't been noticed yet, we already know from Rage 1.0 and Rage 2.0 and their detoggling effects what happens when you lose passive aggro in large team settings: villains quickly (much sooner than 10 secs) lose interest in you and start squishing the squishies.
Point: The Tanker's role is to control enemy aggression.
Point: Rage's downside temporarily negates the tanker's ability to control aggression.
::Therefore:: Rage makes a tanker LESS effective.
Case study:
Last night my 29 tanker was running with a 33 blaster and a 21 Defender /sk'd to 28. We were running the blaster's missions. Difficulty was heroic.
We were fighting 33's and 34's.
3 times last night during the middle of fights, Rage's penalty kicked in. Due to the inherent LOW DAMAGE (this is what it says during Character Creation) I had not done enough damage to enough foes to keep aggro locked on me during the down time.
The result? Team wipes. Both my compatriots were unable to escape fast enough when the group of 5 enemies suddenly lost interest in me and charged them, especially with there being no way for them to know that I was "down" fast enough for them to change their attack patterns.
The current state of Rage 3.0 makes Super Strength tankers far less useful on a team. And since Super Strength is just about THE LOWEST damage of the Tanker Sets, soloing is far harder for a Super Strength tanker than for say, a Fire or Axe tanker.
Conclusion:
Current Rage makes Super Strength an unviable build for both team and solo.
This by definition is "broken".
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On an emotional note, this pisses me the hell off, as I am a 90% team player. Great. I made a team friendly tank all the way to 30, and now he can't effectively team if I wish to do anything other than stand there and be a taunt-bot...
... Taunt-botting makes me feel OH SO HEROIC!!! Doesn't it you? 
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
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These quotes are your own words, Statesman. I highlighted those specific parts for a reason. The changes made to Rage undermine these very sentiments that you expressed back in, in the 'My Morning with Geko' thread.
So, what happened? Why the sudden disconnect here? Why are Super Strength tankers being put into a position where their main method of providing more power to their attacks (something you yourself said a Tanker should be doing more) then makes it so that they cannot do their jobs as you stated in the 'Yes, I've been reading the boards' post?
I'm honestly confused, and would like to know why it is that you and the dev team seem to keep switching which side of the fence you're sitting on?
[/ QUOTE ] 5 stars for you!
Exactly said, with GREAT references!
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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I just like reposting this, because
a) it still amuses me that all this pain and ire is due to solve an issue casual players were having.
b) the fix had *nothing* to do w/ Rage being overpowered, so if the "casual" play could deal w/ the stun, we could have Ragr 1.0 back
c) how we've all been free to share our thoughts and ideas. Looks like that's share it w/ each other.
"....I love you guys."
Well. we shall see what Statesman has to say. I sent him a copy of my post via PM.
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What did the five fingers say to the face?
SLAP!
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, since you're a tanker, that barely hurt. You could use Rage to maybe possibly leave a mark for a short amount of time, but in the 10-15 seconds you are standing there doing nothing tired, I can run away or send you and your teammates to the hospital.
OH NOEZ, STATESMAN BROKE TANKERZ!11111!!!!one!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh...actually, I was agreeing with you. As in, your original post slapped the "stateman is ignoring tanks" argument in the face...without being overly trollish, too. However, your response has revealed your true nature. Why don't you go find a bridge to hide under or some goats to harass?