[ QUOTE ]
On topic, I realise that the 10-15 second cant do anything penalty thats on test is supposed to simulate the disorient effect. Now I havent been on test but it seems to me that is some what better, it keeps people from avoiding the "tired effect" so that the power has the same down time and penalty for casual players as it does for "elite meta gamers" (or what ever you call them) I'm assumeing since I havent tested it that you can still move around and that your toggle dont shut off (assumeing the 20 or 30 point endurance drain doesnt leave you empty) Realise this, we where never ment to be able to avoid the dissorient effect by useing Unyeilding- it was just a lucky side effect that we got to take advantage of, however the power didnt drain endurance and give a deffense penalty and adding additional penaltys along with fixing the old busted ones is to much.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know why Tanks are so "special" that we have to be given powers with penalties that cannot be avoided.
My Ice/Storm controller has the power Steamy Mists which slows her movement but click Super Speed and all is well. My Stone tank wishes he could do the same.
Then there's Rage, Super Strength's very own personalised "Sin Bin" penalty that no one not even the best Defender can counter. Anyone would think that the power was overwhelming as opposed to the equivalent of 4 lvl 1 insps. That's good but not that good!
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
The awful thing is that Monday will be a month since a developer has commented on it officially. And, to make matters worse, Detour hit 50 last night, and has moved on to a Warshade alt (Sundown). Now ask me if I'll ever build another Inv/SS tank: in fact, ask me if I'll ever build any kind of tank again... 
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
As a Super Strength Tanker I have a suggestion that I would humbly offer to the Devs.
I have seen the number crunching and the many personal arguments going out on the forum. From the stand point of a former game devleoper and fan of CoH here is my recomendation.
Super Strength has always been an un-popular secondary. Conceptitually it is great: in practise the advantages don't make it a good choice for anyone.
As a Firey Aura Tanker, I would have been better off with Fire Melee if I was seeking DPS. As it was I was looking for a cool character who could punch out the bad guys. I found one. At level 20, Super Strength gets KO Blow which is nice but not set defining power.
Rage is the set defining power for Super Strength and an oppurtunity for the developers to get people really excited about the secondary again.
How to do it? Balance is important, but every set has its good powers, so -so powers and REALLY good powers.
Rage should be one of the better ones because Super Strength has got a reputation for poor performance.
Rage can change all that. It doesn't have to be Unstoppable, but lets face it - at level 28 Regen Scrappers get an AWESOME power in their Secondary - why can't the SS line get a decent pick?
Many Powers are balanced in relation to other similar powers in pool sets.
The relationship between Hasten and Rage is clear - both increase your combat effectiveness. Both last for 2 minutes. Both have a cost to be paid after the power has run its course.
But Hasten is an over used pool power and Rage is (or should be ) set-defining for Super Strength.
I would try something like:
Bonuses: +80% base damage, +25% Acc for two minutes
Cost: 20 End when the rage finishes to show the exaustion created by such intense... Ragin'
Period. One bounus and one cost. Just like everyone elses powers...
That is what I would do.
Now, Tankers will still have to manage their end because if Hasten and Rage dump your End at the same time, you lose your toggles and go to the Hospital.
[ QUOTE ]
As a Super Strength Tanker I have a suggestion that I would humbly offer to the Devs.
I have seen the number crunching and the many personal arguments going out on the forum. From the stand point of a former game devleoper and fan of CoH here is my recomendation.
Super Strength has always been an un-popular secondary. Conceptitually it is great: in practise the advantages don't make it a good choice for anyone.
As a Firey Aura Tanker, I would have been better off with Fire Melee if I was seeking DPS. As it was I was looking for a cool character who could punch out the bad guys. I found one. At level 20, Super Strength gets KO Blow which is nice but not set defining power.
Rage is the set defining power for Super Strength and an oppurtunity for the developers to get people really excited about the secondary again.
How to do it? Balance is important, but every set has its good powers, so -so powers and REALLY good powers.
Rage should be one of the better ones because Super Strength has got a reputation for poor performance.
Rage can change all that. It doesn't have to be Unstoppable, but lets face it - at level 28 Regen Scrappers get an AWESOME power in their Secondary - why can't the SS line get a decent pick?
Many Powers are balanced in relation to other similar powers in pool sets.
The relationship between Hasten and Rage is clear - both increase your combat effectiveness. Both last for 2 minutes. Both have a cost to be paid after the power has run its course.
But Hasten is an over used pool power and Rage is (or should be ) set-defining for Super Strength.
I would try something like:
Bonuses: +80% base damage, +25% Acc for two minutes
Cost: 20 End when the rage finishes to show the exaustion created by such intense... Ragin'
Period. One bounus and one cost. Just like everyone elses powers...
That is what I would do.
Now, Tankers will still have to manage their end because if Hasten and Rage dump your End at the same time, you lose your toggles and go to the Hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like it! Print it!! 
I wish I'd had this before I hit 50 - this is a marvelous solution that is consistent with everything else, and encourages the thing that Stateman loves talking about - Team Play! I can't COUNT the number of times I've been asked what KIND of tanker I am, and then when I say "inv/ss" I'm either not responded to, or told 'sorry, looking for fire'. Detour solo'ed - SOLO'ED - for most of those 50 levels because of this. This suggestion was and is awesome.
Detour - 50 Inv/SS Tank - on since Beta; Foresight - 50 Controller - on since Summer 2004
Zephyr. - 28 Scrapper - April 2005 1st Place,Victories/ 1st Place, Outcast Nemesis - Steel Canyon - Victory Server- all on Victory.
Catalyst Kid - level 50, Justice server
Wind Racer - level 50, Virtue red side
[ QUOTE ]
As a Super Strength Tanker I have a suggestion that I would humbly offer to the Devs.
I have seen the number crunching and the many personal arguments going out on the forum. From the stand point of a former game devleoper and fan of CoH here is my recomendation.
Super Strength has always been an un-popular secondary. Conceptitually it is great: in practise the advantages don't make it a good choice for anyone.
As a Firey Aura Tanker, I would have been better off with Fire Melee if I was seeking DPS. As it was I was looking for a cool character who could punch out the bad guys. I found one. At level 20, Super Strength gets KO Blow which is nice but not set defining power.
Rage is the set defining power for Super Strength and an oppurtunity for the developers to get people really excited about the secondary again.
How to do it? Balance is important, but every set has its good powers, so -so powers and REALLY good powers.
Rage should be one of the better ones because Super Strength has got a reputation for poor performance.
Rage can change all that. It doesn't have to be Unstoppable, but lets face it - at level 28 Regen Scrappers get an AWESOME power in their Secondary - why can't the SS line get a decent pick?
Many Powers are balanced in relation to other similar powers in pool sets.
The relationship between Hasten and Rage is clear - both increase your combat effectiveness. Both last for 2 minutes. Both have a cost to be paid after the power has run its course.
But Hasten is an over used pool power and Rage is (or should be ) set-defining for Super Strength.
I would try something like:
Bonuses: +80% base damage, +25% Acc for two minutes
Cost: 20 End when the rage finishes to show the exaustion created by such intense... Ragin'
Period. One bounus and one cost. Just like everyone elses powers...
That is what I would do.
Now, Tankers will still have to manage their end because if Hasten and Rage dump your End at the same time, you lose your toggles and go to the Hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is just common sense, agree 100%
Now just sit back and wait for the flames from all the other AT's telling us we Tankers whine to much, and that version of Rage would make us Uber 
[ QUOTE ]
This is just common sense, agree 100%
Now just sit back and wait for the flames from all the other AT's telling us we Tankers whine to much, and that version of Rage would make us Uber
[/ QUOTE ]
They won't have to do that.
The dead silence from the developers about Rage (including the fact that a new version was placed on the test server without a post about it) sorta tells me how they feel about Rage and having to deal with it.
The silence is...disheartening.
Whatever your opinion about this change, the fact they put it in here so we can seemingly talk amoung ourselves makes it feel like they plan to ignore it, and wanted to keep the crying out of the general fourms.
This would never be a, "sob! I'm quitting" thing, for any thinking person. But this particular change seemed unnecesary or overdone and the kind of thing that eats at enthusiasm.
The day that lack of enthusiasm builds up to the point you decide to play something else instead of logging on, is the first step away from the game altogether.
[ QUOTE ]
Now just sit back and wait for the flames from all the other AT's telling us we Tankers whine to much, and that version of Rage would make us Uber
[/ QUOTE ]
What's funny about that sort of thing is that Rage provides a bonus on the base not the total, and tankers have a 400% damage cap anyway (unlike the 500% cap for scrappers + criticals). So, even in the best of circumstances Rage isn't making Super Strength uber.
Because Rage's bonus is on the base rather than the total, it will increase the total damage on a 6-slotted attack by 27% (ignoring the no-attack crash, which really brings it down farther). That's the best it can do without getting into the weird Rage-stacking schemes, which opens up a whole new set of convoluted and complicated slotting scenarios that in the end only provide a marginal benefit (if any) over "normal" perma-Rage..
Hasten, which hardly anyone ever complains about, is arguably the most "uber" power in the game because it effectively increases your damage by 70% on the TOTAL not the base. Because you are attacking 70% faster, a power than normally does say 100 damage over time will now do 170 damage in that same period. Rage would make that 100 damage power do 127 (assuming 6-slotted and ignoring the crash).
When the cost/benefit is considered, I think Hasten is the most overpowered thing in the game, especially considering that it is a tier 1 Power Pool power. When weighing its benefits and penalties against Rage, a 7th tier Secondary Power...well, I don't think there is a comparison.
This isn't an argument for nerfing Hasten or buffing Rage, but merely to point out that as long as other powers exist in the game (especially common power pool powers) which provide that sort of benefit with a negligible penalty, people worrying about something like Rage making a set like Super Strength "uber" is just plain silly. I think that even if Rage had no penalties whatsoever it still wouldn't be a problem except perhaps when compared to Mace, which desperately needs some love and is in worse shape than SS anyway.
Dwimble
I have had it with these Devs....How many times does the Tank community have to go into an Uproar over the changes.
I do not mind penalties on certain powers but i am getting quite annoyed that as a Tank we continue to get the proverbial Shaft. I find it funny that the Devs and Statesmens always use Tanks as refrences to an Imbalance.
Hey Devs why don't you actaully test tanks and listen to us. Most teams in the 40s-50s do not need tanks because a Regen/SR Scrapper can fit the needs. I find it embarrassing that tanks are said to be very good solo characters yet we can only stalemate AVs because of our damage yet Scrappers can and do boast often that they can and will beat them in one on one.
Oh and Statesmen I remember how you said you dd not want Scrappers to Tank......Well you guys have failed horribly because I had a lvl 46 SR scrapper herd the entire Map of lvl 49 Werewolves.
We tanks cannot have high Damage FINE we never asked to be the heavy hitters which we AREN'T. I think the devs have never taken in to consideration that when we tanks fight we are running our Toggles and with high end costs we pretty much have a very Limited Offense. And I completely Dwimble as I noticed something on Sat when I was fighting 4 rikti Chief Soldiers. I noticed that when I was popping enrages i had hit the Damage Cap on KO Blow (2 enrages equal Damage Cap). The funny thing was my view on Rage changed because of that. Whats the use of a power that will not benifit me at ALL and again limit me?
The Devs either have a very annoying sense of humor or they think they put something over us. Either way I find the concerns of Rage as moot. Why should we bicker over its affects when we should just complain to the Devs that then need to fix our Power Sets instead of conning us.
Eitherway I will be filing a Customer Complaint.
oh just shup up ! must be an ice tank or something. anyone who plays invull/ ss knows how bad having a down side to rage is . ss without rage is an endless battle and you prob end up running out of end before you get a kill. these hanges have taken all the fun out of tanking for me. i die more than scrappers. i am a tank why have all these powers that make me vulnerable when i have all the aggro on me. bad enough i had no taoxic or mez protection but make my def drop and take away my attacks. COME ON!!!!!!
I finally get it.
I just thought of two examples of SS/Invl ATs in the comics: Superman and the Hulk.
Not only are these good examples, they also happen to be the considered amoung the two most powerful heroes for their DC & Marvel respectivly. During the DC vs Marvel matchups they were even put head-to-head.
What I just figured out is that the SS/Invl AT is a legal defense.
While you can make a Superman/Hulk look-a-like, no one is going to mix them up w/ the real thing when they see them in a fight.
See? These changes are so stupid, they are actually clever. Veeeeery clever, indeed......
"You can't fool me, I'm a moron!"
Before I3 my tank was my favorite character.
She still is, actually. She just isn't as much fun to play anymore, especially since every time I log in to her I'm worried what they might have changed now without me knowing about or being prepared for.
It's disheartening to have a character be on the rack for so long. It is gradually killing my interest in the game because, frankly, I'm finding it difficult to care any more.
Rage is not, repeat NOT overpowered. Rage only brings the set up to competitive level with other sets like Energy, Fire, and Axe. Until level 28 Superstrength is at best in the lower middle range of the tank secondary sets, with only Mace and Ice below it in terms of damage.
To "fix" Rage? Remove the endurance drain. Remove any other secondary effects. Give it a 20% defense debuff for 20 seconds, or something similar. That will fit with the theme of the power without making its penalty so severe that it's not used (like Unstoppable's).
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
GOD(****)IT DEVS!
Are you people even listening to us? We told you we didn't like Rage 2.0, and yet it went in anyways.
Rage 3.0 went on test without a single comment from you guys. We told you, time and time and time again, that the penalites were too harsh, that they prevented us from doing the job that you said was our main responsibility, which is to take damage.
Are you guys just ignoring us out of spite? It sure as hell feels like it.
[ QUOTE ]
GOD(****)IT DEVS!
Are you people even listening to us? We told you we didn't like Rage 2.0, and yet it went in anyways.
Rage 3.0 went on test without a single comment from you guys. We told you, time and time and time again, that the penalites were too harsh, that they prevented us from doing the job that you said was our main responsibility, which is to take damage.
Are you guys just ignoring us out of spite? It sure as hell feels like it.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's tanker fixing, can you feel the love? I thought you could....now bend over a bit more...
I assume that means it has gone live?
Not surprised I fully expected it to go live yesterday. It would be nice if we could have some discussion over this issue.
Why do tanks deserve this special kind of treatment only Statesman knows. Not one of my other characters has a power than simply cannot be got round by any means what-so-ever, only my tanks.
Are there any others? MOG and Healing perhaps?
Seems like total overkill for Rage & Super Strength.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
[ QUOTE ]
As a Super Strength Tanker I have a suggestion that I would humbly offer to the Devs.
I have seen the number crunching and the many personal arguments going out on the forum. From the stand point of a former game devleoper and fan of CoH here is my recomendation.
Super Strength has always been an un-popular secondary. Conceptitually it is great: in practise the advantages don't make it a good choice for anyone.
As a Firey Aura Tanker, I would have been better off with Fire Melee if I was seeking DPS. As it was I was looking for a cool character who could punch out the bad guys. I found one. At level 20, Super Strength gets KO Blow which is nice but not set defining power.
Rage is the set defining power for Super Strength and an oppurtunity for the developers to get people really excited about the secondary again.
How to do it? Balance is important, but every set has its good powers, so -so powers and REALLY good powers.
Rage should be one of the better ones because Super Strength has got a reputation for poor performance.
Rage can change all that. It doesn't have to be Unstoppable, but lets face it - at level 28 Regen Scrappers get an AWESOME power in their Secondary - why can't the SS line get a decent pick?
Many Powers are balanced in relation to other similar powers in pool sets.
The relationship between Hasten and Rage is clear - both increase your combat effectiveness. Both last for 2 minutes. Both have a cost to be paid after the power has run its course.
But Hasten is an over used pool power and Rage is (or should be ) set-defining for Super Strength.
I would try something like:
Bonuses: +80% base damage, +25% Acc for two minutes
Cost: 20 End when the rage finishes to show the exaustion created by such intense... Ragin'
Period. One bounus and one cost. Just like everyone elses powers...
That is what I would do.
Now, Tankers will still have to manage their end because if Hasten and Rage dump your End at the same time, you lose your toggles and go to the Hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
//SIGNED//
I never picked Rage simply because of the Dev's nerfing it all the time. Why should I get a nerfed power? Speaking of unusable powers: Unstopable (Inv) and Hand Clap (SS) (Stomp does the same, but with Damage!) are the LEAST used powers I have and they will be respec'd out when I hit 50.
DEV'S NEUTER TANKS (AGAIN!) FILM AT 11! Either you want tanks in the game or take them out all together. Quit trying to make us what we are not! If you want MEAT SHIELDS that do nothing but sit there and take damage, then make that a controller power! *SUMMON MEATSHIELD!*
i guess i'm just dumb cause i don't have any other higher lvl alts... but i'm playing a 32 stone/ss tanker and i love rage and i had handclap and used it frequently (to good effect) but recently respeced out of it to pick up mud pots (which i'm not too thrilled with... personally i'm quite happy with rage and see no need to have it changed... i have not died yet from the end drop... my rock armour drops but it's got such a quick reload time and my end goes up so quick from stamina that as soon as i notice that it's dropped i can put it back up again and i'm fine.... and now that i'm 32 if i'm using rockarmour when the end drop hits then i'll switch on granite armour and i'd be utterly fine... hurl i haven't gotten yet so i can't really say much but if it does the same damage as haymaker with a range of 40 i'd be happy... i'd probaly slot it up with 2 or 3 range increases and an acc and be happy with it
[ QUOTE ]
If you want MEAT SHIELDS that do nothing but sit there and take damage, then make that a controller power! *SUMMON MEATSHIELD!*
[/ QUOTE ]
HA! Yeah. I gotta go with u on that 1.
Rage 3.0 is a big improvement on Rage 2.0, so I'm all for it going to Live and replacing it if more changes are in the pipeline. I might actually use it now.
Still, it would be nice to have a comment from the devs on this issue. I do personally think Tankers have been improved since Statesman started his "crusade" just before I3, but the road has been bumpy and the community's a little jumpy.
I think a big part of why this went live is:
a) They did not get enough data from the test server (this is why I think a lot of stuff goes live and then gets tweaked), especially the aggro retention in the 10 second down period. I know that except for Tanker night, the test server is pretty empty.
b) It's a ton better then Rage 2.0, so even if people dislike Rage 3.0, it's vastly superior to Rage 2.0. And they wanted to get a better Rage live, even as an intermediate step.
Still a big pile a Monkey Smeg....on toast.......with mushrooms....and ketchup!!!!!
Dev's....hello.....is anyone there.......*tumbleweeds*
You know.. I'm more concered by a lack of any sort of response than I am that rage 3 is now live. Yes, maybe it's not their job to reply, but there is a bit of a difference between a thread of concerns/complaints started by the players themselves and one started by the lead developer. Most of the posters on this thread aren't name-calling and they aren't insulting. They're expressing their issues and concerned with these power changes (granted, some less ....subtle than others) and many of them are actually doing their best to offer their ideas for alternatives.
I think those posters deserve some sort of response, or this thread should be closed.
Summary:
Rage 3.0
+80% damage boost on base damage of attacks (roughly equivalent of 2.5 extra SO damages in your attacks) for duration.
+25% accuracy boost on attacks for duration.
When Rage 3.0 expires:
-25% of base endurance (so if you're below 25% of your base endurance when it expires, you crash, shutting off all toggles)
5% defense debuff
10 or 15 seconds (heard 2 different numbers being batted around out there) of inability to perform hostile action of any kind, including Taunt.
...
Hmm...
...
The points that I feel need to be made here are:
1) Super Strength has been documented to have one of the lowest base damages of the tanker offense sets. (Axe, Stone, Energy, and Fire CLEARLY are superior, Mace being somewhat better over-all, Ice being the only one close on the bottom end)
2) Other sets mostly get a build-up like power that gives a temporary and strong boost to damage.
3) Other sets do not have a down-side to their build-up power.
4) Rage brings the base damage of Super Strength up to "par" with the base damage of the other sets.
5) Unlike build-up, Rage can be made to be run all the time currently.
6) To compensate for the fact that it can be used all the time, the decision was made that Rage needs a downside.
The conflict:
Super Strength without Rage is "sub-par" compared to the other Tanker Secondaries.
A perma-build up state is seen as "too powerful" by the people who write the game.
The various different models that have been tried to date have been seen as "insufficient" means of limiting the perma-state of rage so different changes are being played with.
The players who play SS tankers already feel inferior to other sets due to the DOCUMENTED LOW base damage.
Adding an additional drawback to a power that brings their offense "up to par" is causing a furor because that is seen as unfair .
Until such time as one group or the other (Developers vs. Players) changes their stance, there will continue to be upset.
Either the Devs need to let the SS players have perma-Rage with little to no drawback due to the DOCUMENTED INTENDED low base damage of Super Strength
--or--
The players who are counting on Rage to raise their damage to an acceptable level need to accept the fact that this is NOT what the Developers intend Rage to be. The intent of Rage at this point is to be a longer, but still temporary, damage boost. Because of the length of its duration, there WILL be a downside.
The players want the Devs to change, and see this as fair.
The Devs want the players to change, and see this as fair.
Until the Devs come out and say definitively that either:
1) Rage will a downside, get used to it
--or--
2) The position on Rage being perma- with no downside has changed to favor this application due to the low base damage of Super Strength
...there will continue to be this controversy and furor.
I personally am offended by the low base damage of Super Strength more than the downside of Rage. When I was level 11, I fought a SuperStrength troll in Skyway who could Punch me for 66 damage. I'm 29 now. At 28, I was barely able to do 58 damage (with 3 SO Damage enhancements) to an even con minion.
I'm growing disgusted with the whole debate personally, and would rather that the Devs make a statement and be done with it so I can either scrap my tanker all together, or continue to enjoy and play my Tanker with the friends I made online.
...*sigh* Whatever...
:::Edit::: Moved rant section to end of post, as it's more appropriate here and distracts less from message:::
...
[rant]
I think I'll retire my 29 Invuln/SS tanker when this goes live and start working my Stone Melee tanker instead.
...Which really sux as I have many hours invested in this character, have wanted to love the Invuln/SS tanker set since it first went live, have numerous friends that I've made that I will now LOSE BECAUSE I HAVE DELETED THIS CHARACTER!!!!!, and of course, have that general feeling that nobody at Cryptic really gives a sexually perverted rodent's actions about the kind of character I want to play.
[/rant]
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
Oh yeah, yummy Dull Pain. I havent played with this power much since I havent needed it, but recently its been more usefull than Unstoppable and Rage combined. Anyone feel like posting some ideas on how to socket Dull Pain ? ( I know I'm off topic but.... I'm tired of crying about Rage, my eyes are dry and itchy ;p)
On topic, I realise that the 10-15 second cant do anything penalty thats on test is supposed to simulate the disorient effect. Now I havent been on test but it seems to me that is some what better, it keeps people from avoiding the "tired effect" so that the power has the same down time and penalty for casual players as it does for "elite meta gamers" (or what ever you call them) I'm assumeing since I havent tested it that you can still move around and that your toggle dont shut off (assumeing the 20 or 30 point endurance drain doesnt leave you empty) Realise this, we where never ment to be able to avoid the dissorient effect by useing Unyeilding- it was just a lucky side effect that we got to take advantage of, however the power didnt drain endurance and give a deffense penalty and adding additional penaltys along with fixing the old busted ones is to much.
Rage would be fine I think with the 10-15 second (tired effect) and the -5% def penalty, if they would just get rid of the endurance drain. What little endurance I have is precious to me. As it used to be Rage would dissorient you for 10-15 seconds or was supposed to at least. Lets not forget that this power is much better than Build up in many ways (it lasts for 2 minutes and can be made perma, something I havent been able to accomplish with Build up).