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Good thing we have non-tankers generous enough to keep stirring us up in forums discussing tanker issues.
(jeez, the sarcasm train is on the move tonight.. WOO WOO!)
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Tanker or not, they have a right to an opinion, they pay their $15 a month just like you. I play all the AT's and I value the input from each of them. Plus this guy seemed to be offering to help, no need to flame him for it.
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Wasn't meant as a flame. He/she was joking with people, I was joking with him/her.
But if we all have rights to opinions, I guess I have a right to question motives (to troll or not to troll). I wasn't in this case. It was mearly banter.
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Again. after picking up and using rage for a little bit, I really dont see what everyone is complaining about.
[/ QUOTE ] Having had Rage for several months and witnessing the change..... I don't think it is that horrible either. I don't think it is better though and I don't think it met the goal of making easier/better for casual players.
Cyclical conversations; accusations of flaming while trying to joke. Think I'm going to vacation from the board a bit. I'm spent.
All I can say is vote w/ your feet....er....respec.
I dropped Unstop, and I'll drop Rage. It may work fine for others in it's new form, but I liked classic coke in this case. Maybe I'll go into the fighting pool now.
One thing that was a self-fulfilling sign for me was last night was the first Sat evening I opened another game instead of CoH.
Fix things, yes. Tweak things for the sake of it? If you rub to hard, you can take off the shine.
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but my results were quite different.
My SS tanker is 30. I ran 2 tests with the following team make up.
Me: INV/SS, 30
Blaster: Fire/Dev /sk'd to 29
Defender: Emp/Rad, 29
Scrapper: BS/Regen 30
Blaster: Elec/Energy 31.
2 missions were run. One on Heroic Difficulty. Another on Invincible.
During the Heroic mission (fighting 30 and 31 Freaks), the only way I was able to keep aggro was to keep an eye on Rage and when it seemed like it was about to expire, go into "Taunt-Bot" mode. The 2 times I failed to do this, the Empath had to scramble to keep the blasters awake, in one case it was a darned near thing, and only the fact that the scrapper was a better player than he should be saved the Fire Blaster. 
During the Invincible mission (Also against Freaks, just for consistency), we were facing 33's and 34's.
Even with timing, I couldn't keep aggro during the drop of Rage 3.0, resulting in 4 near immediate face plants for the Fire blaster, and 3 for the Defender, and 2 for the Elec blaster.
So as it stands right now, Rage is a dangerous tool to use, at 30, when my attacks are too lightly slotted to do enough damage to keep enemy interest, and when Taunt wears off too quickly on any mob higher than a +2 Lt.
So with a good team, it is possible to do missions at the lowest difficulty setting, while using Rage 3.0
With a good team, it does NOT seem possible to do missions at the highest difficulty setting, where if you DO NOT use Rage, this is not a problem. If I don't use Rage 3.0, I don't lose aggro, and the team does just fine. It's actually possible to go FASTER and gain MORE XP/TIME by NOT using Rage 3.0.
So: Tankers! Pre-40's! Be WARNED! You can use Rage 3.0... but unless your team is savvy to it, it will more likely cause your teammates to incurr debt! Statesman was exactly right... they've made Rage 3.0 a highly situational power.
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
Ah rats. I knew we needed more +1-+3 mob testing for this. But my baseline should have been a good indicator. I don't have any Taunt enhances, besides the 1 in the default slot of Taunt at all either. Looks like Rage may truly be "situational" now, like Statesman's PM to Archimedes said. 
It has been my experience when teamed with OTHER tankers that rely only on punchvoke to maintain aggro... that it is no easy task. Secondary doesn't matter. At lower levels, unless you're tossing around taunt and grabbing aggro the old fashioned way, you're going to have aggro management issues from time to time. SS or no SS. rage or no rage.
Im a level 34 tank and have been playing a lot in the past few days. I don't even notice the downside to Rage now. I've been doing Invincible missions with teams and not had any problems related to rage dropping (problems with 5 bosses sitting on the elevator maybe, but rage related). I love the new changes, although it seems such a minor downside for such a great power.
First- Sorry, I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if I'm repeating points.
Second- I find the new Rage to be a very powerful tool, especially solo. I do not use it when I'm tanking for a team, and for those of you think it should be as usuable when teamed as it is solo: Not every power is. There are a lot of Defender powers that are useless solo, I don't think it's a big deal if some of my powers are less usuable in certain situations (especially since when I'm on a team the boost to my damage would barely make a difference anyways.)
In conclusion, I like the new Rage, it's much better than the original version which the Devs seemed to think was overpowered, so... I assume they'll be changing it again. Maybe they'll come to realize the original version was actually quite balanced and revert it to that. Then we can put this whole mess behind us. 
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Ah rats. I knew we needed more +1-+3 mob testing for this. But my baseline should have been a good indicator. I don't have any Taunt enhances, besides the 1 in the default slot of Taunt at all either. Looks like Rage may truly be "situational" now, like Statesman's PM to Archimedes said.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a non-taunt Tanker and I was using Rage during a Respec TF the other night.
I would herd a group of Tank Smashers and get them nicely grouped (typical example being 6, ranging from yellow to purple) I could hold them easily but about 3 seconds into the ADD* they would wander away to something more interesting
This is not good and makes Taunt a more required tool (I have done this respec before without losing aggro or squishies). On the otherhand if I had ever tried to use Old Rage when surrounded by 6 Tank Smashers* I would most definately have had my toggles dropped.
So far I am finding I can use new Rage in a lot more situations that old Rage.
*ADD: Attention Deficit Disorder
*Tank Smashers: Actually a mixture of Tank types. If it had been just Tank Smashers they could probably have brought down Unyielding anyway. But you know what I mean.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Here is the main problem with the new Rage. It has nothing to do with aggro or anything else.
It is, quite simply, not fun. It's not fun to stand there totally unable to act for ten seconds every two minutes.
This is a game. People play games in order to have fun. Anything that takes away from that fun does not belong in the game.
I don't think you will find ANY tank who says that the new Rage is fun. I sure don't think it is. But in order to avoid the un-fun part of Rage, I have to give up doing decent damage, which is also un-fun.
This was the problem with the original Rage. Getting chain-mezzed because it dropped and stunned you was not fun.
The same with the second version of Rage. Losing all your End, dropping your toggles, and being chain-mezzed was not fun.
While from the perspective of debt and experience the new Rage is far superior, it still is no better than the other two. Standing there like a moron while things pound on you, unable to respond, is not fun.
Once Rage is fixed so that it is fun, as anything in a game should be, the complaints will vanish.
As it is, if we want to have fun, we're penalized for it. The message given by all this is simple. "You're a tanker. You're not supposed to do damage."
"But we're superheroes!" you say in response. "We're supposed to bring the hurt to the badguys!"
"It doesn't matter, you have a role, that of meatshield, you're not supposed to do damage and we'll make sure that if you do you're penalized for it."
It's supposed to be a game... but how is this fun?
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BINGO!
Give SablePhoenix a prize!
The latest version of RAGE is extremely UN-FUN!
Do I die using the new Rage? Not yet...
Did I die using the old Rage? Yes once in awhile the disorient of an attack would tip the balance and I would almost always die in that situation if solo....
As an Invulnerability Tank my endurance is a precious commodity. Having to deal with these limitations is TEDIOUS and mind numbing as-is but here comes RAGE 3.0 with its 25% endurance hit and increased chance of toggle drop... YIPPEE!
Rage used to be a use at your own risk power. Sometimes it would bite you in the behind but it added a little OOMPH to a weak attack set and put SS'ers in the same league as Energy Melee, etc... Now Rage is the bumbling, annoying, IRRATATING power that constantly interrupts gameplay every 2 minutes ARRGGHHH!!!
DEV's please consider making RAGE a TOGGLE power and make folks 6 slot the damn thing so that they can run it all the time. That level of investment, enhancement wise, should more then balance things. If THAT doesn't float the boat then I suggest GETTING RID OF RAGE altogether, Boosting SS base damage for all attacks by 25% and give us BUILD UP instead.
I just HATE this new version of Rage and it has completely robbed me of any sense of fun when soloing with my Tank. Sweet Jesus! It wasn't like Rage let us hit as hard as scrappers anyways.... Even if a SS Tank could hit the 400% damage cap his attacks where nowhere near as potent as a scrappers. So what gives?
What makes me angry the most about these changes, was the fact that Cryptic just started making them without so much as a warning to us players. Suddenly one day there was changes on Test.... and now its LIVE!... Rage is a fundamental power in the SS line. You just can't blind side your player base without at least giving them fair warning. At the very least talk to your players and ASK for their input. Come up with something that is mutually acceptable to both sides...
These changes to Rage should have NEVER made it to the Live servers. Until Rage is changed into a format that the majority can agree on and is FUN to use, then it should really be reverted back to RAGE 1.0 and more testing be done on the TEST SERVER .
QF
One very disgruntled player.
PS - If anyone feels the need to flame me, don't bother. I obviously wrote this post in an ANGRY state of mind. My favorite hero hasd been altered in an unacceptable and extremely UN-FUN manner and I'm at my end of my rope.... *sigh*
I'd have to say I agree with this assessment 100%. But Statesman seems pretty set in his thinking of how Rage should work.
Just get rid of it, and replace it with Build-Up. At least that power can be used without penalty.
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Here is the main problem with the new Rage. It has nothing to do with aggro or anything else.
It is, quite simply, not fun. It's not fun to stand there totally unable to act for ten seconds every two minutes.
This is a game. People play games in order to have fun. Anything that takes away from that fun does not belong in the game.
I don't think you will find ANY tank who says that the new Rage is fun. I sure don't think it is. But in order to avoid the un-fun part of Rage, I have to give up doing decent damage, which is also un-fun.
This was the problem with the original Rage. Getting chain-mezzed because it dropped and stunned you was not fun.
The same with the second version of Rage. Losing all your End, dropping your toggles, and being chain-mezzed was not fun.
While from the perspective of debt and experience the new Rage is far superior, it still is no better than the other two. Standing there like a moron while things pound on you, unable to respond, is not fun.
Once Rage is fixed so that it is fun, as anything in a game should be, the complaints will vanish.
As it is, if we want to have fun, we're penalized for it. The message given by all this is simple. "You're a tanker. You're not supposed to do damage."
"But we're superheroes!" you say in response. "We're supposed to bring the hurt to the badguys!"
"It doesn't matter, you have a role, that of meatshield, you're not supposed to do damage and we'll make sure that if you do you're penalized for it."
It's supposed to be a game... but how is this fun?
[/ QUOTE ]
BINGO!
Give SablePhoenix a prize!
The latest version of RAGE is extremely UN-FUN!
Do I die using the new Rage? Not yet...
Did I die using the old Rage? Yes once in awhile the disorient of an attack would tip the balance and I would almost always die in that situation if solo....
As an Invulnerability Tank my endurance is a precious commodity. Having to deal with these limitations is TEDIOUS and mind numbing as-is but here comes RAGE 3.0 with its 25% endurance hit and increased chance of toggle drop... YIPPEE!
Rage used to be a use at your own risk power. Sometimes it would bite you in the behind but it added a little OOMPH to a weak attack set and put SS'ers in the same league as Energy Melee, etc... Now Rage is the bumbling, annoying, IRRATATING power that constantly interrupts gameplay every 2 minutes ARRGGHHH!!!
DEV's please consider making RAGE a TOGGLE power and make folks 6 slot the damn thing so that they can run it all the time. That level of investment, enhancement wise, should more then balance things. If THAT doesn't float the boat then I suggest GETTING RID OF RAGE altogether, Boosting SS base damage for all attacks by 25% and give us BUILD UP instead.
I just HATE this new version of Rage and it has completely robbed me of any sense of fun when soloing with my Tank. Sweet Jesus! It wasn't like Rage let us hit as hard as scrappers anyways.... Even if a SS Tank could hit the 400% damage cap his attacks where nowhere near as potent as a scrappers. So what gives?
What makes me angry the most about these changes, was the fact that Cryptic just started making them without so much as a warning to us players. Suddenly one day there was changes on Test.... and now its LIVE!... Rage is a fundamental power in the SS line. You just can't blind side your player base without at least giving them fair warning. At the very least talk to your players and ASK for their input. Come up with something that is mutually acceptable to both sides...
These changes to Rage should have NEVER made it to the Live servers. Until Rage is changed into a format that the majority can agree on and is FUN to use, then it should really be reverted back to RAGE 1.0 and more testing be done on the TEST SERVER .
QF
One very disgruntled player.
PS - If anyone feels the need to flame me, don't bother. I obviously wrote this post in an ANGRY state of mind. My favorite hero hasd been altered in an unacceptable and extremely UN-FUN manner and I'm at my end of my rope.... *sigh*
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Meh, I don't care about Rage. I said months ago it should just be a weaker version of Build-Up... it's not like Tanks can ever do the damage a Scrapper can, even with all the additions to damage output. Besides, Scrappers get Build-Up/Focus Chi 22 levels before Tanks get Rage, so I don't see the problem with just giving Tanks a 75% version of BU/FC. Tanks will always be behind on the damage curve, which they should be, but all Tanks should at least do similar levels of damage to each other.
I was going to delete my Tanks, especially the Inv/SS ones, because we never did get the comic book-y toons we were promised. Then the WLs came and I was able to powerlevel them a good dozen levels, which took some of the sting out of playing 'em. Rage was never a power I was interested in before, and it's not now, so no loss to me. But everyone has a point where they hate the changes to their characters, and you guys have finally reached that point.
Welcome to the club.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
So because our "increase our damage" power is more situational than Build Up (i.e. I can't blindly use it every single time it recharges) we should just toss the damn thing out and get Build Up instead?
Rage doubles or even triples my damage output for as long as it's active. That is a HECK of a good thing to have when you are facing hard odds or a big bad boss.
And what do I have to pay for this unique and very useful situational power? No chance of being stunned, no huge loss of endurance...I have to stand around doing nothing (well not fighting anyway, I find it a good time to delete enhancements i don't need) for, omg, ten whole seconds!
Ah, but standing still doing nothing isn't FUN Evil!
Ok, maybe that's true for you. But then again neither is working off debt. Debt is no fun, it should be removed from the game!
or not. Sure it would be more fun if it could be used constantly...heck I gained three levels using perma-rage after I3 went live. But c'mon, it's just a tad overpowered that way.
Face it guys, Rage was not meant to be a perma-power that makes SS tankers damage dealing monsters. All we'd see from then on would be the FOTM Fire/SS Tanks. Rage was designed to be situational, plain and simple. Just because they gave us mobile mez everyone suddenly figured "well that means I can use Rage all the time now!" but it's obviously not what they intended since they fixed it not too long after. And this fix is much better than the last one.
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Face it guys, Rage was not meant to be a perma-power that makes SS tankers damage dealing monsters.
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Then the obvious solution was to increase the Recharge time.
I have found that I can use New Rage in more situations than I could Old Rage. I can't think of a single reason why a solo tank shouldn't run Rage perma. I used New Rage on the Respec TF the other night while surrounded by Tanks. I would never have done that with Old Rage.
New Rage is easier to use with a much lighter penalty and is a lot less situational than it was before. However I still prefer the original. At least with Old Rage if I messed up then I got the debt. The Attention Deficit Disorder attached to the new Rage just isn't an appropriate penalty for a tank.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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...Rage doubles or even triples my damage output for as long as it's active. That is a HECK of a good thing to have when you are facing hard odds or a big bad boss...
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Where does something like this come from? Just a bit of an exaggeration there. Rage does NOT double anyone's damage ever, and of course that means that it certainly doesn't triple it either.
Rage adds 80% damage to you BASE damage. So, even if you have zero damage enhancements in an attack, at best Rage will almost double it...again, that's if you have ZERO damage enhancements in the attack.
If you have an attack six-slotted for damage then Rage adds 26% to your total damage, which is certainly respectable but hardly anything incredible. The only possible way for Rage to double your damage is if you 6-slot it with recharges, stack it, and then have at most one damage enhancement in the attack.
Dwimble
Rage is an 80% boost to your base damage. Not your damage with slots, your base. At least that is what it is supposed to be. If it is doubling or tripling your damage, you don't have much slotted in your attacks.
Just tested it on Test. Against the Clockwork Paladin. (Which can be soloed by a level 40 tank, BTW. And he can put you to sleep and Tesla you right through Unyielding. 
)
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Power slots Enhancements Damage Damage
W/O Rage W/ Rage
Jab 6 1 Rech/5 Dam 76.09 98.24
Punch 3 1 Rech/2 Dam 70.54 103.12
Haymaker 4 1 Rech/3 Dam 140.16 193.59
Knockout 6 1 Rech/5 Dam 410.47 526.45
Blow
Footstomp 2 2 Dam 146.44
</pre><hr />
I apparently didn't use Footstomp on him when I wasn't under Rage. 
So which of your powers does it even double? If it actually did double our damage, then we would need a larger penalty.
I know, you mean it doubles our total output, except it can't unless it doubles the actual damage we do. It doesn't make us attack more often, and my accuracy is already maxed, so it doesn't help me there.
And even with Rage, we are not close to being damage dealing monsters. I am sure someone has the damage done by the other Secondaries around here. Probably in the Brawl Index. I believe it will show that SS is actually next to last in damage dealing. (Poor Ice)
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Ok, I did more aggro testing with +3s and such today:
Aggro test continued.
Still better then expected.
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And even with Rage, we are not close to being damage dealing monsters. I am sure someone has the damage done by the other Secondaries around here. Probably in the Brawl Index. I believe it will show that SS is actually next to last in damage dealing. (Poor Ice)
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The Brawl Index can't be used to accurately show damage output because it doesn't take animation/recharge times into account. It's a start, but it alone doesn't really prove anything. Super Strength may not be as strong as some secondaries, but having teamed my Mace tank with several SS tanks during his career, you're definitely ahead of us as well as Ice as far as DPS is concerned. Being in the middle can't be THAT bad, can it?
Here's a thought - Logically, the potential to take a foe out of action for a couple of seconds with every shot coupled with shorter animation/recharge times (therefore, more chances to get that effect) would seem to be a big factor in why SS's damage is lower than Axe/Energy/Fire. Would you trade your knockdown/up/back effect for more damage?
Forgive me for suggesting with little experience, but:
Why not get 2 tanks. Even if both are SS, just make sure rage timings off by 10 seconds....
As I said, I have an 11 inv/mace, so little to tell form experience, here...
We thought of that, but all Tanker attacks have built a in Taunt effect. Liquid and I discussed that, but the inherent Tanker aggro built into our attacks makes this harder to really test well. We also have a hard time getting people to test. Not a bad thought though, Lallendos.
no you're right I was not quoting fact, I was making a general observation which was exaggerated, I should have chosen my words better. That doesn't change the point I was trying to get across though.
Rage is a really good power that lasts a lot longer than Build Up or it's equivalents. A power that boosts you by this much has to have some sort of a downside (this means that simply upping the recharge time won't cut it, it's powerful enough it has to have a downer). Since the original downside was negated by the developers giving us mobile mez protection they had to come up with a new downside.
Rage was semi-situational before the mobile mez protection. You could use it perma, but you had to be careful of the timing and it could cost you or your teamates if you weren't.
Mostly perma-Rage was only used by people who used Perma-Unstoppable. Then with I3 Rage became that way for everyone with mobile mez protection like Unyielding.
Now it's back to being something that you can use a lot of the time, but you have to be careful and watch it or it can cost you or your teammates...ok, mostly just your teammates.
So there really isn't that much of a difference between Rage as it initially worked (non-perma Unstoppable) and how it works now, except that the Tanker him/herself is actually in LESS danger than they were before (i.e no toggle drop).
It just really bothers me when I hear people start mouthing off about how 'this power sucks' or 'it needs to be changed' or 'just replace it with Build Up', etc. I would love it if there was no downside and I could run it perma all the time since I run Unyielding all the time too, but no one can honestly say that would be even remotely fair.
[ QUOTE ]
BINGO!
Give SablePhoenix a prize!
The latest version of RAGE is extremely UN-FUN!
[/ QUOTE ]
That's my conclusion too. I've had the chance to play with it a bit now, including on the Manticore TF (which I posted about in one of these Rage threads) and my number one, two, and three problem with it is that is simply isn't fun in this state. I'll use it because the benefits are good, but the "fun factor" makes me not even want to use it when playing solo...much less on a team.
On the TF I died a couple of times because I wasn't watching my endurance closely enough and the resulting Rage crash caused my squishy Fire tanker toggles to drop. Frankly, I think that penalty plus the -def is enough. If forces me to pay attention to what I'm doing and with care or the right teammates can be worked around.
What is monumentally "unfun" in my opinion is the sort of surprise button-mashing blackhole at the end of Rage. I hate the helpless feeling it gives, which is very similar to the feeling I get when I'm chain-held, even though I'm not really in any danger of dying from it.
No matter how many times I use it, it just seems "off." It seems like something is broken or the client is locking up. Suddenly I just can't press the buttons, realize it's because of Rage, feel annoyed, and then mash mash mash until the pause ends and the attack or taunt goes off. I wish the buttons would at least be grayed out like when exemplared instead of just suddenly not working like during lag. But, I'd really rather there be a massive damage debuff, make Taunt half-strength, or something like that instead of the button freeze. It's just disconcerting, even if not particularly dangerous.
Dwimble
I did not realize that Mace was that bad. Never played that powerset. Hasn't really fit any of my character concepts yet. But I am sure I will get around to it.
Actually, I would trade my disorient and knockup for more damage, on everything but Knockout Blow and Footstomp. It can be fun to do a chain of knockdowns on a boss, but it is not a sure thing. Even Knockout Blow does not always knock the bad guy over, and it has the best chance. But more damage? That always does what it is supposed to. 
I am not saying Rage 3.0 needs more changes. IV's latest tests are promising about holding onto the mobs in group situations. I was just disputing the idea that Rage makes SS some uber powerset because it raises our damage through the roof.
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------
Exactly how I feel Dwimble. The Endurance penalty isn't all that bad but in an extended fight it can be a toggle dropper... (fyi just slotting 1 endrdx in all my attacks and toggles helps a great deal to mitigate this) and to me that is an acceptable risk. The defense debuff isn't all that bad either. So I take a few more hits then normal, I'm a Tank so again not a real show stopper and to me this is acceptable.....
The UN-FUN part of this debacle is the 10 seconds of NAP time!! This "feature" is slowly driving me nuts and it seems to happen at the most inopportune times... *sigh*
I appreciate the work Vixen is doing, testing the latest change to this power but to be honest I could give a Flying Rikti Monkey's poop if I can hold agro durring NAP time or not... All I really CARE about is having fun and this 10 second pause is definitely nonconducive to having FUN!
QF
Yes it does! Thanks Vixen!