Cleen

Thanks, guys! Yall made much better uses of IOs than I did (was just farming form the list, dont have a good internal knowledge of them all, yet!)..

And managed to get to where I wanted to go, more efficiently. Thanks. At the end of the day, you gain so much from not stressing that last 1% on fire and energy...

Question, though... why the Rectified Recticles in Rage? We seem to
be over establishment on S/L defense (at least according to Mids, were at 48%). Isn't there something else that could be done with those 4 slots? Or maybe drop it to three and pick up another somewhere else?

BTW.. this is my 'real' account, now reactivated. Yesterday was a trial account.

Thank you. I appreciate very much the answers recieved. For the ones you cannot.. I am somewhat comforted in believing that if you could, you would.

Am I to assume that the similar changes reported in Tank mezz prot have the same reason for them as the scrapper ones?

And is there a chance we could get numbers on the Tank values?

I understand that there is probably a bit of a divide around the office on the 'numbers' policy of the company and the game. I think my voice (and that of most players) would be towards making any and all values public. Informed decisions are good. Maybe the guys in code and the guys in UI could find some way to have the power descriptions give values for powers, and what they do, based directly on the data stored in game for how powers work? That would cut down a long way on confusion and questions. If I log in and see that a power that formerly offered X protection now offers Y, and it says so in the power, I can make informed respecing.

We dont mind. Weve come to hate invincibility in a way. It cost us what we wanted of the set, our reistances.

Buffy, your right. We wouldnt tank as well at 90% resistances as we would at 30% resistances+Crowd of Minions.

However, as has been pointed out, you can tank nearly ANYTHING with ANY build, espc with some purple candy, or for Invuln, a minion swarm.

The question is 'what do you want to play, today', and for my own part, I signed up to play Really-Tough-Guy, not Minonrancher.

-Starts Petition to move Invulns DEF to Ice-
-Starts Petition to have Invulns RES returned-

Carry on.

And, Ironically... Fire has more Resistance than Invuln, formerly known as the 'Resistance' Tank.

I dont know an Invuln who doesnt want to give Ice our Defense, if we can have our Resistance back, please?

Side note... VERY good point on 'one trick pony' sets. It seems that sets that get a 'moderate' amount of something (Invuln with +DEF, Fire with +RES) get actually rather ALOT, in terms of power and slot investment.

Sets that FOCUS on a survival power (Invuln +RES, SR +DEF) get VERY LITTLE for each slot or power selection, and frequently end up taking near their entire primary to 'get there'

Consider Invulns:
Temp Invuln
RPD
REle
RNrgy
UY

Versus 3 (and if you dont care about Cold, 2) sheilds out of Fire?

Or Invincibility (we will ignore tough hide) as compared to.. 3 passives and 3 toggles out of Super Reflexes?

It seems that they need to reconsider what they want each AT to focus on. If you give us 2 decent powers that 'dont go to the heart of the set', but work pretty well, and a half-dozen REALLY POOR powers that do 'what the set is supposed to do'...
we will likely save ourselves around 4 powers and 20 slots, do the thing the set 'isnt supposed to do well' moderately well for 2-3 powers and 10-15 slots, and take the rest of our slots and go home.

Thus the Invuln Tank that spends 2 powers and 10 slots for more +DEF than Ice can ever get, or the Fire tank that at the OUTSIDE spends 4 powers and 20 slots to far, far more RES than an Invuln with 5 powers and 25 slots (and who can cut his slotting and powers by ALOT, and simply end up the resists the Invulns wish they could still get... 66% to all.)

Sorry, I let this be too much about Invuln. But I'm with you on specialist sets getting hosed, and paying a higher price for the privelidge.

Ahh, someone mentioned the holy grail of Pvp Skill, Honour, and expertise.

Starfleet Command.

I need to reinstall Empires at War or Orion Pirates and serve a hot deliver of Flaming Fusion Doom to some overconfident hot-shot kid pilot...

-points to kcirrot-

Im going to stop posting. Hes saying pretty much what I want to say, and saying it better, and less antagonistically, than I can.

So, what he said.

My Position:
I do the things I do as hard as I can. I do them to win.
Anything that I can do, that lies within the rules and spirit of the competition, that will help me win, I will do.
I will choose a powerset, I will research it. I will level a character from 1-50. I will retire my main. I will keep track of who the major players and SG's of my server are. I will help my SG raid for loot, and when the open raids become the norm, I will go to every one that my schedule permits.

I will make sure I have as many respecs remaining as possible, and character slots open to build what is necessary if all my investment comes to naught.

I will put the best enhancements I can find in the slots in my powers. I will build my character for PvP. I will build my character to have HOs in his slots, as these save slots to let me use combinations of powers I could not otherwise.

I will learn every powerset, even if I do not play it. I will know what my foes powers do, and what they might do. I will practice with my team. I will have voicechat. I will test my character, and my skills, against everything I can find. The same for my teams.

I will be the best I can be. Period. Skill. Equipment. Practice. Training. Enhancements. Everything. There is a beauty to being the best you can be, even if it isnt the best there is. I dont expect to be the best there is. But I'm going to try.

If your not prepared to compete at that level, that is certainly your buisness. Your $15/month is the same as mine, and I hope you have as much or more fun than I do.

But if your not prepared to compete at that level, then don't come here asking the developers to wave their wands and make you my equal.

The real 'concern' with Hamis (if there is one) is not the idiots with 20, but the 'best of the best' players with 60.

Those people may be slightly dangerous.

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Developing your character is the major difference not leveling, timesinks, or effort.

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Okay, how do I develop my character without spending time and effort? What would be the logical extension of this? Log in, go visit the trainer, train up to whatever level I want to be, fill out my powers and slots with whatever enhancements I want from a free, pull-down menu, and get to it? Development? I maintain that development is, and must be, a result of some effort, some input. CoH's shelf life would be rather less if we all started at whatever level we pleased, with any powers we want. I, sir, like some feeling of earned accomplishment.

I will agree that Hamidon IS a chokepoint, and I would like to see other ways to get the same (or equivalent) reward. Make it the payoff for a 6 hour TF that makes the old, bad respec look trivial. Have them for sale for 100+ Influence. Award one for every 100 Devouring Earth Monsters your team kills. Whatever. I miss my SG raids, of planning, preparation, and care, and enjoy not at all the unavoidable 100+ man slow-click brute-force slideshow that is the ONLY way to go near Hamdion, now.

What we need is more ways (not easier, only different) to reap the reward, not to remove the results of effort already invested.

Then again, we could just all duke it out with brawl and lvl 1 toons. None of that nasty effort and work stuff.

-knockknockknock-
"Are you playing Doom Yet?"

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Why are some people rich and others poor?

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The problem with these work-for-it arguments is that they forget the *other* capitalistic system at work here - Cryptic wants to sell product.

Unlike real-life the 'poor' can (and do!) opt out. Think about it: who's gonna pay to be poor?

If Cryptic fails to deliver something that works for the 'poor' then Cryptic stands to lose a chunk of their customers. If its a big enough chunk then Cryptic suffers.

And all your talk of work-for-it means diddly-squat compared to that.

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So, the 'successful' MMORPG rewards non-effort and effort equally, allowing nothing to distinguish the two?

Umm... character development (leveling, timesink, EFFORT) is one of the major, if not the major, dividing line between an MMO and an FPS.

Which do you want to play? An MMO? Or a large, persistant-world FPS?

It appears that the only case where a Hammy O is ever not as good as a lvl 53 SO for that 'aspect' of a power is Travel.. .and even then frequently worthwhile, because End Rdx is good to have in Flight.. -g-

Still, I do wish theyd bring the Travel Speed thing 'into line' with everything else about HOs...

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Its not really that unequal. On Pinnacle, there are probably between 2-3 open raids a week. Show up. Earn your HOs. Or deal with the fact that other people did when you didnt.

Yes, Id like there to be other ways, god knows, I'd like there to be other ways. If you were pushing for other ways, I'd push for that with you.

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Sir, open raids really aren't the answer.

Take a look at what is happening on the Champion server - trip mines, novas, you name it, all in the name of hoarding Hamidon enhancements.

The developers have a miserable reward system in place that in most cases does not truly reward a large portion of the folks at an open raid.

While you and your supergroup have done an admirable job of figuring out the Hamidon, time after time and have INDEED put in the kind of effort that I see you defending in this thread, a LARGE portion of the 45+ populace with HOs has sadly not done the same.

Please keep this in mind, and best of luck in the arena.

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Im sorry to hear its that troublesome on Champion. Its certainly imperfect on Pinnacle, and I do -prefer- SG raids to open ones... but from what I've seen, its not a case of most poeple going away empty handed most of the time.

Its not really that unequal. On Pinnacle, there are probably between 2-3 open raids a week. Show up. Earn your HOs. Or deal with the fact that other people did when you didnt.

Yes, Id like there to be other ways, god knows, I'd like there to be other ways. If you were pushing for other ways, I'd push for that with you.

You know, I was going to try to come up with something to offset the negativity and insecurity, here... but I give up. Youve all beaten this horse quite thorougly to death.

Im sorry your not getting everything you want. I hope you manage to have fun despite the fact that some people may have better builds, toons, inspirations, enhancements, tactics, strategies, anything that would in any fashion disadvantage you, no matter how they got it.

The other plus side? If ever you loose, no doubt it was because your foe had HOs, and you did not, or had less of them, or didnt have the right types.

Children.

To the poster who said the problem is that HOs are only available one way through the game, and that this is a problem... here I agree.

HOs, or their moral equivalent, should IMHO be available to people who are willing and able to do equivalently hard things, to put in the same kind of time and effort and risk and debt (though the debt is less of an issue for the 50s, the 'risk' of failure is still large)

Maybe an 8 man TF, with no 'easy out' scenario, one which is mind-crushingly, soul-numbingly difficult. Requiring not only the right mix of characters, but good play.

Maybe a solo mission, again on that makes strong men weep.

Maybe even for sale... for 10 Million Influence or so. Maybe alot more.

I agree that there should be other hard, and hopefully more enjoyable/rewarding ways to get the things.

Maybe as a benefit for soloing something of respec trial difficulty.

Maybe alot of ways, so long as they are difficult enough to justify the reward.

But to say 'no Hami-Os, because I dont like Hami Raids' is similar to me saying 'No Accolades, I hate collecting badges' or perhaps even 'no powers, because I hate gaining levels' (Actually, they are already somewhat doing this, with their 'weight classes'... sigh).

I do hope there can be some middle ground where we can have a casual friendly game without it becoming pure pandering to the lowest common denominator.

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To suggest that any success I should have is somehow lessened or tainted because I chose to work hard at being successful seems very strange to me.


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All there is to be respected is skill. You've illustrated your view, let me illustrate mine. What I'm about to relate happens in many areas in the US on any given day.

You and I both agree to fight over the grapes comment. (Folks will fight over nasty comments.) We're both known as decent brawlers so this should be good. You have shorts, a t-shirt and some boots. I have a nice padded jacket and from my pockets I pull out nickel rolls and brass knuckles. ( I worked hard to get them. You just didn't know I had them. Kind of like HOs.) Tell me, how much respect from my win should I garner?

I'm sure the next time you see me you'll be prepared. So this time you have a knife and heavy coat. Tough guy! That's fine. I've got 2 Desert Eagles. You still have a chance to beat me, but not much. What ensues is an arms race. The bigger gun is most likely to win. How can I respect the outcome of combat when skill has been marginalized? A lopsided win isn't respectable, if so then I should shoot some unarmed people.

In the context of this game, if both players have an equal number of HOs or full HOs, then it's a game of skill and thus respectable. But the chances of that are slim as most will have a varying number of HOs. HOs are also not guaranteed at this point due to griefers. Do you think those griefers will stop because the devs said so? That's another issue I won't get into.

The good thing is we don't have to get involved in the arms race. That was my other point.

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Oh, if they werent in the game, they wouldnt be in the game, and we wouldnt be here. I wouldnt have worked for them, and all might be better.

The Arms Race comment is argueably well taken, and as above... maybe would have been better if we hadnt ended up here. But here we are.

Still, to my mind, HOs are not, and will not be, illegal doping in a boxing ring... they are the larger muscles that come of time spent in the gym.

As I've said before, I imagine the differences between 'haves' and 'have nots' will remain irreconcilable. I just wish the 'have nots' werent so damn vituperative about it.

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To Sum Up: People with Hamidon Enhancements are Bad, and Lack Skill. I will not be playing them, my friends will not be playing them, and I will have less respect for people who I think May Have Them.

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Wrong!
I'll have less respect for a post 45 PvP title, not the player. I never said that the those with HOs are bad or lack skill. I'm noting that HOs may tip the scales for them. I liken it to steroids, corked bats and such. They don't ensure success, but they do help. I know that not everyone 45+ will have HOs and may hold some PvP rank, but because I cannot see their enhancements, I'll have to question their true skill. I was also reminding the players that they do not have to be worried about HOs as they don't have to deal with players who have them.

Why the remark about sour grapes? I'm sure that's something you would not tell me in person, so please, try to be more polite.

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See, I went and reread your post, and I'll admit it still strikes me in the same fashion it at first did.

For my own part, I invested alot of time and energy in my character, and in the HOs. This is not (to my mind) 'steroids' in competition... it would be 'steroids' if the GMs had said they were disallowed, but they were commonly and cheaply available.

The supply of HOs in one of my toons (Ive left my other 'main' clear, to provide a non-HO opponent for people who dont have the opportunity to get them) is a result of nothing more or less than a lot of hard work, planning, and careful thought and effort on my part and the part of my Supergroup. To suggest that any success I should have is somehow lessened or tainted because I chose to work hard at being successful seems very strange to me.

As for the sour grapes comment? I would probably have said that in person... I'm fairly direct when riled. The characterization of those who have chosen to work towards their success on this thread angers me.

Yes, it is a game. Yes, a game should be fun, not work. But being very, very successful at something that is hard, that alot of people want to be very, very successful at will, and argueably should, involve work. There will always be some form of advantage to be gained, and being willing to work for that advantage, because you want to succeed, should not be grounds for the sort of villifying that has been going on here.

If I were an amature race-car driver, in a class of races where anything went, I would not expect to see my time and effort in careful enginnering and planning nullified because someone wanted to drive a floor-stock Honda Civic, and argued that racing is supposed to be fun, and that he did not find working on his car fun, just driving.

That was the backdrop against which your post was made, and perhaps my perception of it was inadvertently coloured by the colour of the backdrop.

I personally will have every bit as much respect for the holders of the 'lightweight' titles... its a big old world, and everyone doesnt have to play my way. That said, I choose to persue the super-heavyweight belt, in the highest echelons of competition, and I find the idea that my efforts are less worthy or my success (whatever it may be) less valuable because I worked harder for it quite beyond my comprehension.

In any even, enjoy your game, and perhaps we will cross blades on C'len, my 'light heavyweight', rather than on HERO, my 'super heavyweight', character.

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It seems to me that if you are unwilling to farm HOs, or cannot for some reason, then PvP post 45 may be tipped against you. A decent player with Hammy-Os on summer vacation will give the working parent a tough fight. For many this doesn't make 45+ PvP appealing.

Lets not forget that the Pre-45 game is still fair. I think more props, stature, kudos, and atta-boys will be given to the pre-45 title holders. I know I will not be able to look at 45+ title holder and say they are truly good players, as the playing field is not level. I'll assume that HOs are involved somewhere. I don't know what the ranks will be called, but if I see someone 44 and below with a top ranking, I'll know they must be skilled. At levels 45+, forget about it, I'll doubt that person's actual skill.

We must also remember that it's all by concent. I'm working out a weekly PvP plan with my SG and allies. We don't farm and so the 45+ game will still be even ground. So those who farm and those who grief to get more, may be left fighting each other on uneven ground to get the same ranking that non-farmers have earned on even ground. Keep that in mind and take heart. You do not have to farm HOs to compete, that only comes into play if you choose combat the random player.

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To Sum Up: People with Hamidon Enhancements are Bad, and Lack Skill. I will not be playing them, my friends will not be playing them, and I will have less respect for people who I think May Have Them.

Sir, are the grapes REALLY that sour?

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I started a fire/fire tank recently.

Now, I'm not too high level yet, but I team with an Invulnerability/SS tanker occasionally.

Not only are my defensive toggles cheaper (fire shield and plasma shield compared to TI plus unyielding), but my attacks seem cheaper too. And you know something, my fire tanker only has two attacks currently but I keep stealing aggro from the SS tanker with provoke-punch, and the SS tanker has twice as many attacks (which may also be a cause of the endurance problem). I also end fights with twice the endurance he does (and that's assuming I don't use Consume).

Conculsions: First, SS doesn't seem to be able to keep up damage-wise at low level against fire. I assume this will only get worse. And that's the fire secondary. SS also costs far more endurance than fire, which if it can't keep up, just isn't fair. If Rage were too be able to be used more often, it might be more equal. Secondly, I now think TI costs too much endurance. It doesn't do as much as Fire Shield, but Fire Shield seems to be more cost effective. (TI is only smash/lethal resistance. Fire Shield gives about as much smash/lethal resitance AND fire/cold resistance AND disorient resistance).

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I think the problem here is not Invuln or SS, but Fire. Every set with Fire in its name in CoH (with the exception of blaster fire secondary) is very, very, very good indeed.
Fire Blast- AOE DOOM
Fire Imps- I mean 'Firey Control', dont I?
Firey Melee- Woot! AOE AND Good Single-Target!
Firey Armour- Burn, Baby, Burn. And as you said, broader and cheaper toggles. And more 'utility' than Invuln.

Dev's say *YES* to Fire Toons!

An excellent post, concisely demonstrating for the perusal of the Developers everything that is best about the best AT in the game.

Are you -sure- you wanted to do that?

An excellent post, concisely demonstrating for the perusal of the Developers everything that is best about the best AT in the game.

Are you -sure- you wanted to do that?