My Kheld teams with a tank of the same level all the time who has no trouble keeping aggro off her; both are only 10 so he doesn't have Taunt yet. And the Tauntbot discussion has been hashed through multiple times on these boards, so let's not go into it again; Taunt is only ancillary to this whole discussion.
The point is that Rage as it exists isn't fun. Forced downtime isn't fun.
<star wars=gold leader> Stay on topic... stay on topic...!</star wars>
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
My Kheld teams with a tank of the same level all the time who has no trouble keeping aggro off her; both are only 10 so he doesn't have Taunt yet. And the Tauntbot discussion has been hashed through multiple times on these boards, so let's not go into it again; Taunt is only ancillary to this whole discussion.
The point is that Rage as it exists isn't fun. Forced downtime isn't fun.
<star wars=gold leader> Stay on topic... stay on topic...!</star wars>
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree with you on this one. While the down time can be a problem at times the benefits are more then worth it. We are talking 10 seconds of not attacking. I wait more then that sometimes to get endurance back.
This also comes down to thinking about when to use the power not just button mashing to doing to most damage you can ever do 24/7. If you are afraid to use the power because you want to taunt your opponent don't use it and let your teammates do the extra damage that is missing. For some having to time power use isn't fun, for others it is called a challenge. I prefer the challenge.
Icensun
Feedom Server
Neo-Genesys Super Group
www.SYN-CITY.COM
Captain Powers 50thlevel Inv/SS Tanker
Icensun 34th level Inv/En Tanker
Autoblaster 46th level AR/Dev Blaster
From talking with other SS tanks both on the boards and in game, you'd be in the minority, Icen.
Most SS tankers I know either barely use Rage anymore, or are either going to respec out of Rage or have already done so.
Erm....Kind of like Iike some of the rest of us not taking Build-Up, eh? (with exception to Build Up + Energy Transfer/Total Focus tankers).
I know I used to feel a bit silly using Build Up on my Ice Tanker...crap damage enhanced is still crap damage 
I would use Build Up and just barely reach the damage output of a Super Strength tanker who was NOT using Rage...what does that tell you?
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From talking with other SS tanks both on the boards and in game, you'd be in the minority, Icen.
Most SS tankers I know either barely use Rage anymore, or are either going to respec out of Rage or have already done so.
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I have a 40th level Fire/SS tank and use Rage permanently with two To Hit buffs in it for accuracy and have all my attacks six-slotted with ++Damage SOs. That puts all of my attacks at the 400% cap at all times except for the 10 second feel-like-an-idiot-staring-at-your-feet-mashing-buttons downtime. That's 369% damage overall.
I love the benefits but hate the no taunt downtime. I agree that Rage needs penalties. I think the -Def and -25% endurance at the end is just about enough though. There have been quite a few time when my toggles have dropped from the endurance loss, epecially if Rage and Hasten happen to end around the same time. That's very dangerous.
However, in an instant I would accept those penalties and even welcome the addition of a massive damage penalty for ten seconds if it replaced the annoying force-me-into-Phase-Shift-without-the-benefits mode. It's not fun and I hate it. Heck, I'd even accept the addition of some kind of fourth penalty to get rid of it.
Dwimble
We all hate it.
Rage isn't overpowered, either. In no way is Superstrength overpowered, and in no way does Rage make it so.
I don't think it needs a damage debuff. I think the Endurance hit and the defense debuff are just right. In fact, heck, I'd take a bigger defense debuff, like 20-25%, for ten seconds. The ADD syndrome is too severe however, and more importantly...
IT IS NOT FUN.
I know I sound like a broken record but I'm going to keep hitting this till it's changed or I get fed up and abandon the character, which isn't going to be much longer at this rate. It's a game and it's supposed to be fun.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
While the -Def and -25% End was a viable solution to the whole Rage ordeal there were still many many post about how that sucked as well. Me I didn't mind it that much because I wasn't fighting Carnies and Sappers yet.
I could just imagine fighting a group of carnies and have the rage drop of 25% end, haste drop 25% end and have two to three carnies drop around me, not to mention the end I used to kill them. To me that would be a toggle drop leading to a very vulnerable situation and dept.
One the other hand in the same situation but without the end drop from Rage there is a slightly (very small) chance of not having the toggles drop. Ok so, you stand there for 10 seconds waving to the carnies picking your nose but you don't have the downtime of running back to the mission after a hospital visit now do you?
My line of thinking is accept what you have now because it can always and usually is made into something worse. Just look what they did to Unstoppable, overpowered though it was, now its a power that is totaly useless. I have yet to find a time to use it or a need for that matter because I maxed out my defenses already and there is nothing that a purple pill couldn't fix that unstopable could help me with.
Icensun
Feedom Server
Neo-Genesys Super Group
www.SYN-CITY.COM
Captain Powers 50thlevel Inv/SS Tanker
Icensun 34th level Inv/En Tanker
Autoblaster 46th level AR/Dev Blaster
I very much enjoy using the power rage, but I only just started using it and do not know what rage was like prior to version 3.0. I don't like the 10 second downtime but that is mearly annoying to me and not power breaking.
Just chiming in.
I don't use haste so the end drop does not double for me I *Love* the new Rage and I've been using rage in all it incarnations. The only problem I have is that there should be an animation to represent your exaustion I actually missi the stumbling around. If they would add that animation back sans the toggle drops it would be perfect!
Through my career most of the tanks I've teamed with have been of the invul/superstrength variety. In the past week, though, I've teamed with some other variants -- invul/energy, fire/ice, fire/fire, and fire/energy I think covers all of them. I have watched them closely to see how the sets work (especially since I have ten seconds out of every 100 or so that I can't do anything else).
Rage as it currently exists is flat out unfair.
These other tanks can deliver constant streams of damage, uninterrupted, do more of it and do it faster than superstrength. And to make matters worse we get a forced interruption of our damage with Rage?
Rage barely brings the Superstrength set close to Energy tankers' damage. It doesn't begin to bring the Superstrength set close to fire tankers' damage. It about equals axe, from what I've seen.
This was pretty much the final straw for me. Unless Rage is changed to something that makes SENSE, I will never team with my tank again (which means I will barely play her).
I don't begrudge the other tanker sets their damage. I think it's great. But standing there inacapacitated as another tank stands beside me and mows things down twice as fast as I could hope to even without the Rage downtime is frustrating, and worse, it's horribly, monstrously unfair. It feels like I'm being told I'm doing something wrong for trying to do as much damage as possible with my powerset.
There is no logic behind this. Why is Superstrength being punished?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
/petition to change the name of Rage to "Killing Spree".
kkthnx
I have a 47 invul/ss tank now and I use Rage on a regular
basis. As far as I am concerned it is much more useful now
than before even if the rpger in me is screaming that Rage
doesn't feel like the way Rage should work.
To me, Rage was the 'I am Majorly PO'ed at you and am
going to do everything I can to pound you into paste no
matter what the cost!' type of power. Now it feels like
something you tap when you need a boost, a bonus and
am out of insps. The post I3 fix, the end drop to zero,
was more in line with how I felt Rage should work, even
if I did hate it passionately.
Anyway, the way it is now is an improvement but it could
stand some tweaking like:
1. an animation for the downtime to give others and yourself
a the heads up that your rage has dropped.
2.the ability to add damage enhancements to the slots so
they can boost the damage as well as accuracy
3.the ability to use taunt during the downtime. So you can
get a 'Is *puff* that the *weeze* best you can do?' type of
effect.
Ultimately though, if you don't like Rage and find it useless,
don't use it. No one is holding a gun to your head and
saying:" YOU MUST USE THIS OR ELSE!!!!"
That's it I'm done
S.Thug 47 invul/SS
Pinnacle
Quote: "I need reds. Lots and lots of reds!" too many
missions to count.
S.thug ((level 50 Invul/ss tank Pinnacle))
Wild Childs ((Level 50 Nin/SR Stalker. Virtue))
Quote="Not Racist. Not violent. Just choosing to no longer be silent."
Would anybody say what the base damages, disregarding vulnerabilities and resistances, of the various sets are?
It would seem to me that Superstrength suffers from the following limitations:
It is purely Smashing, which means that there are more things resistant to it than are resistant to anything else.
The majority of its attacks are single attack only. They get AoE first at 16 rather than 10 like many tanks, and that AoE is non-damaging. It doesn't get damaging AoE until level 38.
It would seem to me that the damage of SS tanks might not exactly be less, but that the circumstances surrounding it make it seem so.
I can think of several things vulnerable to Energy, Fire and Ice. I can think of a few things vulnerable to Lethal (but more things resistant) I can only think of one group vulnerable to smashing, and that is the Quartz enemies from the DE.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
you bring up some good point but I have to disagree on the
aoe attack'handclap' It can be very effective slotted right
unfortunately it's a 'soloist' power. Use it regularly in a team
battle and eventually your blasters and/or controllers will
read you the riot act on scattering those tightly knit groups.
I do think that maybe a minor damage to go along with it
might be a good idea though.
S.Thug 47 invul/SS
Pinnacle
Quote: "I need reds. Lots and lots of reds!" too many
missions to count.
S.thug ((level 50 Invul/ss tank Pinnacle))
Wild Childs ((Level 50 Nin/SR Stalker. Virtue))
Quote="Not Racist. Not violent. Just choosing to no longer be silent."
Hey, I love Hand Clap, but I wouldn't call it a soloist power.
Soloists never need to go against herds unless they want to. Hand clap is more something to use when getting overwhelmed, not too frequently, because you want to keep the groups together most of the time, but, if you have an extra spawn or two charging at you, let loose.
But the complaints are mostly discussing damage, which I think is a soloist complaint anyway. A team-tank shouldn't have to worry about damage, that's what the teammates are for, but if the SS damage makes soloing difficult that is a problem.
The thing that concerns me the most about Rage is the inability to taunt. But, then again, it's a damage booster, which means it's geared primarily to soloing tanks. Still, for those that run a team SS, perhaps the devs should put in that taunt is allowed to be used while recovering from Rage.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
Which once again forces us into a tauntbot role that Issue 3 was supposed to allow us to avoid.
Going in circles here. Just allowing Taunt to work is not acceptable. Everything should work.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
Through my career most of the tanks I've teamed with have been of the invul/superstrength variety. In the past week, though, I've teamed with some other variants -- invul/energy, fire/ice, fire/fire, and fire/energy I think covers all of them. I have watched them closely to see how the sets work (especially since I have ten seconds out of every 100 or so that I can't do anything else).
Rage as it currently exists is flat out unfair.
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So have you experienced these other sets by playing them or is this just anecdotal evidence?
For a long time, I believed what was said on the boards. SS uses overly high endurance. It is balanced for damage based on the idea of rage constantly running. Look at the numbers!
...then I played my tanks.
My anecdotal evidence and experience says that SS is a good set. I'm guessing that you have more here than you posted, but I'll stick with what I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is that you're saying that the SS secondary is weak when compared to other secondaries and a highly damaging primary. That just doesn't seem to make sense. Have you tried Fire/SS? On the not fire side, so what if Energy does more damage? Have you compared endurance used, recharge times, and when certain powers come into play?
What I've seen doesn't appear to paint SS as a low damage, high end set. I think Rage is unfair. Not in the weak way though. I'm surprised there is a near permanent version of Build Up on a set that isn't gimp.
*Note my opinions keep shifting as new info is inputted. This view is a result from a bit of comparing different sets and views of them. Liable to change quickly
Honestly I liked the way Rage was with the stun. They changed it and now it really doesn't have a major drawback. I use it all the time and never once think about what I'm fighting and how it will affect me. With the old rage there would be times I would say "Naaa man that's to risky."
Now I don't care. It is a powerful tool and does buff us up quite a bit but it's to easy. I liked the old rage. It made us think and kept us on our toes.
Agreed, having played fire/fire, earth/ice, invuln/energy and ice/strength, I must say that I don't think strength is all that bad. It has a pretty high speed set of attacks and does decent damage unless you're fighting something like a troll or a brick.
The disorient on jab and the knockdown (with optional, extremely fun, knockback) on many other attacks make for a lot of keeping the enemy off balance.
As to the comment about us being tauntbots. If, for some period of time, I can do enhanced damage and the price is 10 seconds of time in which I have to be a taunt bot, so be it. However, since aggro control is the main deal for a tank, I'd like to be able to have that chance.
At the very least, let the auras aggro people.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
[ QUOTE ]
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Through my career most of the tanks I've teamed with have been of the invul/superstrength variety. In the past week, though, I've teamed with some other variants -- invul/energy, fire/ice, fire/fire, and fire/energy I think covers all of them. I have watched them closely to see how the sets work (especially since I have ten seconds out of every 100 or so that I can't do anything else).
Rage as it currently exists is flat out unfair.
[/ QUOTE ]
So have you experienced these other sets by playing them or is this just anecdotal evidence?
For a long time, I believed what was said on the boards. SS uses overly high endurance. It is balanced for damage based on the idea of rage constantly running. Look at the numbers!
...then I played my tanks.
My anecdotal evidence and experience says that SS is a good set. I'm guessing that you have more here than you posted, but I'll stick with what I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is that you're saying that the SS secondary is weak when compared to other secondaries and a highly damaging primary. That just doesn't seem to make sense. Have you tried Fire/SS? On the not fire side, so what if Energy does more damage? Have you compared endurance used, recharge times, and when certain powers come into play?
What I've seen doesn't appear to paint SS as a low damage, high end set. I think Rage is unfair. Not in the weak way though. I'm surprised there is a near permanent version of Build Up on a set that isn't gimp.
*Note my opinions keep shifting as new info is inputted. This view is a result from a bit of comparing different sets and views of them. Liable to change quickly
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is not about how relatively "good" a set is or not compared to other sets. You can't tell me that, even with Rage, superstrength can equal the destructive power of other sets like fire (primary or secondary) or energy. It can't, I know this for a fact. You know what? I don't particularly care that they're higher damage sets. What I do care about is that they get to deal their damage uninterrupted, while we have a forced ten second downtime every ninety to one-hundred twenty seconds where we can't do damage at all (or, incidentally, anything else). The logic (or lack of it) behind this escapes me. Yes, it is unfair. A higher-damage set is allowed to deal that higher damage uninterrupted, while strengthers are not.
I don't care if other sets have higher damage, it's the way it's dealt that bothers me. I don't understand why I'm punished for using my set to its full potential, when other more effective sets aren't.
The most important point, however, the one which it always keeps coming back to, is that it's not fun.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
If you all want a fair solution to rage listen up, and yes I mean the Developers also. First of all the endurance should come off right at the start, not from the rear like hasten. Secondly and this is the real deal and final rebuild for all of us, while rage is running we should have a 20% accuracy drop, and yes we should be able to compensate for it with enhancements and powers like focused accuracy. Even though we compensate for it it takes away from other areas in our build, after all look at the endurance needed to run focused accuracy. And if we add accuracy enhancements in our attacks to try and escape the drop then we will lose damage or other effects there. It is right, it is fair, and I can't believe I had to tell you how to do it. If you go with this suggestion then I suggest you stop allowing us to add accuracy enhancements to rage, sort of defeats the purpose. If you are in the mood to grant wishes I also suggest you allow us to add damage enhancements to rage.
I think with 100% END cost, they should just make it a warshade power. /sarcasm
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If you all want a fair solution to rage listen up, and yes I mean the Developers also. First of all the endurance should come off right at the start, not from the rear like hasten. Secondly and this is the real deal and final rebuild for all of us, while rage is running we should have a 20% accuracy drop, and yes we should be able to compensate for it with enhancements and powers like focused accuracy. Even though we compensate for it it takes away from other areas in our build, after all look at the endurance needed to run focused accuracy. And if we add accuracy enhancements in our attacks to try and escape the drop then we will lose damage or other effects there. It is right, it is fair, and I can't believe I had to tell you how to do it. If you go with this suggestion then I suggest you stop allowing us to add accuracy enhancements to rage, sort of defeats the purpose. If you are in the mood to grant wishes I also suggest you allow us to add damage enhancements to rage.
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are you freakin kidding me? an accuracy drop? i'd respec out of rage asap if they did that... i miss enough as it is when not using rage... if my accuracy went down while using? i'd be swinging at air 90% of the time... it'd be an utterly useless power... i'd rather take it as it is now witha 50% end drop then any accuracy drop unless it was at the end... maybe 20 seconds of a 25% accuracy drop... that way you could still use taunt you just couldn't really attack much
Rage is pretty good as-is. Although ten seconds does seem to be a lifetime
Would it be overpowered to remove the dowtime? If not - do it.
My super strength inv tanker just made it to level 32...I have had Rage for only two levels. I find it, in its current state invaluable. And A kick to be able to knockout mobs with one hit finally. However, Taunt is of more concern to me. I cant think of any reason not to take it. Invinc has auto taunt, so do tank powers now. but with super strength the only AOE you get at early levels is hand clap. While ammusing, its pretty useless. So you could run around and smack all the bad guys to get their attention OR and this is the important thing, when someone is at range jumping on your teammates, you dont have time to run over and lay on the hurt. Taunt is your best ally, and your teams best friend.
When I first started playing I thought "Taunt! what the F! why would I want more baddies on me?" Needless to day I did not fully understand the role of a tank.
Get taunt.....and hold all those bad guys while your buds destroy them....Its the hero way.