There we go, make it a toggle that increases damage, but the negative is a loss of some defense/resist.
Stop with the defense debuff stuff. We all know that putting a defense debuff of, say, even 20% would do little to make an Invuln or Fire (or even Stone) tankers care. It would, however, make an Ice Tanker without 5 or more enemies around him and Energy Absorption ready cringe. Since the majority of SS tankers appear to be Invuln, this would barely be a barely noticeable effect (Invicibility being up would negate this penalty entirely, still leaving that tanker with 90% resists plus whatever extra defense he had).
There's already enough things in the game that reduce defense. Make this one reduce Resist, if anything.
It's all a moot point anyway, as I doubt the devs will change the current implementation.
It does indeed seem like they're leaving Rage as it is.
In which case my level 50 is going to be shelved. I tried running missions in tandem with a close friend tonight. It was nothing but mounting frustration, whacking the buttons over and over through that 10 seconds that seems more like 30, till I got fed up and quit after two missions.
The penalty is totally inconsistent with the powerset, both in concept and in power level, as well as being anathema to the very concept of tankers and most importantly being nothing but a source of frustration to the player. And with the Invul/Superstrength combo being the most popular character concept for obvious reasons, this is something that should be avoided at all costs.
Either it changes or I retire my tank, which means my interest in the game drops sharply and I shortly afterwards cancel my subscription. This isn't a threat, they couldn't care less about one subscriber out of their tens of thousands, simply a statement of fact. Invul/SS is the only powerset combo that has kept my interest to level 50, and if that has now been reduced to an exercise if frustration there's not much reason for me to stick around.
It's really sad that the set was crippled in this fashion when there wasn't anything wrong with it to begin with. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" does not apply here, apparently.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
If you want to point fingers Sable, I'd suggest to start with all of the SS tankers that run Rage double-stacked; they were doing it to avoid the total end drain that came with Rage 2.0, as well as to increase their damage and accuracy even more. By doing this, they skew the numbers the devs get from their data-mining; because they see that many SS tankers use Rage in this manner, they figure it works.
This is a fight I've already given up as being a non-issue. They're not going to budge on it, which is why HC is slowly becoming an alt as I work other characters up to replace her.
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It does indeed seem like they're leaving Rage as it is.
In which case my level 50 is going to be shelved. I tried running missions in tandem with a close friend tonight. It was nothing but mounting frustration, whacking the buttons over and over through that 10 seconds that seems more like 30, till I got fed up and quit after two missions.
The penalty is totally inconsistent with the powerset, both in concept and in power level, as well as being anathema to the very concept of tankers and most importantly being nothing but a source of frustration to the player. And with the Invul/Superstrength combo being the most popular character concept for obvious reasons, this is something that should be avoided at all costs.
Either it changes or I retire my tank, which means my interest in the game drops sharply and I shortly afterwards cancel my subscription. This isn't a threat, they couldn't care less about one subscriber out of their tens of thousands, simply a statement of fact. Invul/SS is the only powerset combo that has kept my interest to level 50, and if that has now been reduced to an exercise if frustration there's not much reason for me to stick around.
It's really sad that the set was crippled in this fashion when there wasn't anything wrong with it to begin with. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" does not apply here, apparently.
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Unfortunately, it looks like the Developers did not feel that it was working as intended. It could have had to do with Tankers doing awesome damage while basically being immune to everything but psi.
But that could just be me.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Stop with the defense debuff stuff. We all know that putting a defense debuff of, say, even 20% would do little to make an Invuln or Fire (or even Stone) tankers care. It would, however, make an Ice Tanker without 5 or more enemies around him and Energy Absorption ready cringe. Since the majority of SS tankers appear to be Invuln, this would barely be a barely noticeable effect (Invicibility being up would negate this penalty entirely, still leaving that tanker with 90% resists plus whatever extra defense he had).
There's already enough things in the game that reduce defense. Make this one reduce Resist, if anything.
It's all a moot point anyway, as I doubt the devs will change the current implementation.
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I wasn't actually recommending a Defense Debuff, merely saying it would be more in line with the concept. A loss of some sort of defense (in the general sense, not the game concept of Defense) is a better balance for an offensive power than reducing offense.
I'm merely suggesting some forms for that defense penalty, but any would be workable. A resistance debuff, as you say, would also be a good choice.
I do have to wonder why the duration of the "stun" was set to 10 seconds. After all, that's what we're talking about here. It is essentially the disorient, without dropping the toggles. But no disorient lasts 10 seconds.
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If you want to point fingers Sable, I'd suggest to start with all of the SS tankers that run Rage double-stacked; they were doing it to avoid the total end drain that came with Rage 2.0, as well as to increase their damage and accuracy even more. By doing this, they skew the numbers the devs get from their data-mining; because they see that many SS tankers use Rage in this manner, they figure it works.
This is a fight I've already given up as being a non-issue. They're not going to budge on it, which is why HC is slowly becoming an alt as I work other characters up to replace her.
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I'm not pointing fingers anywhere. I ran stacked Rage throughout my 40s, even before Rage 2.0; it's not that hard to figure out how to do, I did it without reading any guides or any assistance on "uber" builds. If that really was the problem, then the solution is not the current penalty but instead increase the recharge so that it cannot be stacked.
The issue may be dead but until a red name says so I'm not going to treat it as such. If it is, that means my character is dead too, which I'm going to fight to prevent.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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It does indeed seem like they're leaving Rage as it is.
In which case my level 50 is going to be shelved. I tried running missions in tandem with a close friend tonight. It was nothing but mounting frustration, whacking the buttons over and over through that 10 seconds that seems more like 30, till I got fed up and quit after two missions.
The penalty is totally inconsistent with the powerset, both in concept and in power level, as well as being anathema to the very concept of tankers and most importantly being nothing but a source of frustration to the player. And with the Invul/Superstrength combo being the most popular character concept for obvious reasons, this is something that should be avoided at all costs.
Either it changes or I retire my tank, which means my interest in the game drops sharply and I shortly afterwards cancel my subscription. This isn't a threat, they couldn't care less about one subscriber out of their tens of thousands, simply a statement of fact. Invul/SS is the only powerset combo that has kept my interest to level 50, and if that has now been reduced to an exercise if frustration there's not much reason for me to stick around.
It's really sad that the set was crippled in this fashion when there wasn't anything wrong with it to begin with. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" does not apply here, apparently.
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Unfortunately, it looks like the Developers did not feel that it was working as intended. It could have had to do with Tankers doing awesome damage while basically being immune to everything but psi.
But that could just be me.
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Rage has nothing to do with immunity. That comes from your primary set. As far as awesome damage, look no farther than Burn (which is just disgusting), or the Energy Melee secondary, or the Fiery Melee secondary. They'll outclass Superstrength any day. They are unequivocally superior in the damage department and have never gotten a power-breaking nerf like Rage did. Damage output is not a valid reason for such an egregious and frankly stupid penalty.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
It's odd, because to me, it seems like a shorter pause then ten seconds. I also don't have to mash the attack button because I just watch the animation to let me know when I can act again. It goes pretty fast as far as I am concerned. I like Rage quite a bit, but I use it according to the situation I am in.
Est sularis oth Mithas
I enjoy the current Rage as well. I respect other peoples feelings though that do not.
At the very least this ADHD syndrome needs to be removed from Rage for the sake of teams. The penalty is completely out of synch with the power and the AT. It does nothing to put the tanker in danger. I'm still just as invulnerable when Rage crashes as I am when it's not crashing; I'm not going to die in ten seconds because I can't throw a punch. The team, however, suddenly becomes seriously threatened. No other power has a penalty which endangers the entire team. The penalty needs to be one that endangers the tanker and not the team, instead of the other way around.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Think of the down time as:
1. a chance to recover some END
2. a chance for you to pop some insp, delete trash, etc
3. a chance for ALL your attacks to recharge at which time you can hit a target with a complete combo!
Sure it a bit inconvenient, but it beats the heck out of being drunk, losing all your end, or having all defense drop.
I have Rage Perma'd. it fits Cyberzerker's Concept, and its much better that it was in previous incarnations!
It was worth the wait and nerf-agony, to have it the way it is!
If thats the case then blaster AoEs,(ie. ice storm, fire storm), Kheld, Energy blaster and Matrial Artists Knockbacks and 1/2 the other powers in the game should penalyze the AT and not the team.
My tank still holds agg when "tired", and a simple taunt brings em back his way when the 10secs is up
The current Rage works out just fine. seems balanced and fits in with the SS set.
That 10 seconds is plenty of time for the blaster to peel aggro of the two Freak Tanks off you and end up faceplanted. I have experienced it firsthand. Rage is not fine the way it is.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Poster: SablePhoenix
Subject: Re: Changes to Rage
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That 10 seconds is plenty of time for the blaster to peel aggro of the two Freak Tanks off you and end up faceplanted. I have experienced it firsthand. Rage is not fine the way it is.
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True and I agree with the comment.
Think on this though. That Blaster peeled the aggro off you while you were in the 10 sec phase. If the blaster had of been paying better attention He would have made sure you could keep the aggro by keeping track of the rage timer. Tanker stops fighting let him reclaim aggro when he is out of it and recover end for the 10-15 seconds before letting loose. If he doesn't then he is responsible.
Solutions
Hell have rage reduce your dmg to 0 when it ends for 10 seconds. Have Taunt no longer considered an attack.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
My */SS tanker can't select Rage yet, but I'm trying to decide whether to take it or not.
How complete is this "stun" at the end or Rage? Are you still able to talk to your team? Can you inform them that you'll be unable to pull aggro off of them for 10 seconds, so they need to be careful?
I think it is a little unrealistic to expect other team members to keep track of my Rage power wearing off. However, if I warn them a few seconds before it incapacitates me and then, tell them again once I've re-established aggro on the group, then it doesn't seem to be overly crippling.
-H
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Think on this though. That Blaster peeled the aggro off you while you were in the 10 sec phase. If the blaster had of been paying better attention He would have made sure you could keep the aggro by keeping track of the rage timer. Tanker stops fighting let him reclaim aggro when he is out of it and recover end for the 10-15 seconds before letting loose. If he doesn't then he is responsible.
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There is no display of a Rage timer, I don't know many players that keep timers on other peoples powers.
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Hell have rage reduce your dmg to 0 when it ends for 10 seconds. Have Taunt no longer considered an attack.
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Now that is a good idea. Rage doesn't increase the effectiveness for a tanks taunting aura so why should the taunting aura be effected by the drop of Rage.
If Rage had an animation that the time had expired, possibly with sound effect, then that could warn the other players of the effect. But I I think it's a bit much to expect the Tanker to warn his allies that he has lost the ability to aggro AND MAKE THAT PART OF THE GAMEPLAY. If it's going to be part of the gameplay, then there should be some graphic indication.
Making it so you can Taunt during the downtime would at least be a solution. Maybe not the best solution, but a lot better than relying on your aura. I know from experience that the aura is inferior to Taunt, and depending on your slotting, Taunt may be inferior to your attacks. But at least the Tanker has an option, even though only the one option.
Personally, I think having damage be 80% (right?) for the duration of the Rage, and 20% for the down time would be a GREAT idea. Makes a heck of a lot of sense...
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At the very least this ADHD syndrome needs to be removed from Rage for the sake of teams. The penalty is completely out of synch with the power and the AT. It does nothing to put the tanker in danger. I'm still just as invulnerable when Rage crashes as I am when it's not crashing; I'm not going to die in ten seconds because I can't throw a punch. The team, however, suddenly becomes seriously threatened. No other power has a penalty which endangers the entire team. The penalty needs to be one that endangers the tanker and not the team, instead of the other way around.
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If you put the tanker in danger, you are putting the team in danger.
It makes much more sense for my Inv/SS tanker to have to take a break from swinging his arms and helplessly struggle to get back into the fight to save his friends that are now subject to more enemy attention, then it does for him to punch himself to death.
I just made L32 and have had rage since L30 and love it granted the down time was hard to live with in the beginning. I watch my END much closer now and toggle hasten to help get it back sooner. I never use Hasten and Rage at the same time for fear of END drop at the same time. But I do stagger the start time o hasten. Since I fight +4-5 level targets all the time loosing my toggles would be bad.
I have learned how to best use it and while not perma I click it as soon as its back.
At 32 I got Unstoppable and the drop in Rage does not compare to the Drop in Unstoppable. I have yet to figure out how to make it work without outside help.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
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Poster: TJ_Solomon
Subject: Re: Changes to Rage
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There is no display of a Rage timer, I don't know many players that keep timers on other peoples powers.
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True but you don't have to have a timer. If a tanker is not attacking or taunting he is AFK or in the 10 second phase. You may not know the exact time but you can generally get a feel for when the tankers rage is about to go to the penalty phase.
Teammates should be more aware. As a scrapper I keep an eye on the weaker members and head off threats. I don't have to be told. Blasters should know when to draw aggro and when not to. That was a case of drawing aggro when he/she shouldn't have.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
I've been using Rage since about a week since issue 3 came out... I've got no problem with the penalty as far as solo playing goes.
So far, my team experience is not so good but better than expected. Generally, I've got either a secondary tanker to back me up for the duration I lose aggro, or I'm teamed (regularly) with an illusion controller with phantasms and decoys in abundance. In fact, I find it rough keeping aggro with those things around even without using Rage!
Situationally, though, I know that I won't always be able to count on having a secondary tanker or pets to back me up through Rage's downtime.
I guess I just won't use it when teamed up in other team scenarios... which sucks, because that makes Rage a power that discourages teaming.
I really don't have problems with mobs peeling off of Magdi when I am on the down cycle of rage. I do need to qualify that statement. I need to have hit a Taunt (5 sloted (3 rechrg red, 2 taunt duration)) and possibly a Footstomp before anyone else engages the group. My biggest problems losing agro have been when someone jumps the gun on me, not when rage drops.
These are, however, mearly my experiences and I am not attemping to invalidate other peoples findings.
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Berserkers weren't dangerous cuz they hit hard, they were dangerous cuz they hit hard and had no regard for their own safety.
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Yeah. Another thing I'd been meaning to point out is that Energy Transfer has a cost in HP to use it. In other words, the Energy Tanker, having a surplus of hit points most of the time, is able to channel some of those hit points into damage. That's basically what a Berserker does when he goes berzerk, he allows himself to take damage in order to a) make himself angry due to the pain and b) not have to worry about defending himself so he can spend all his effort on hitting.
Rage already has a Def debuff, though, even though it was reduced. (Or at least, that's the last I heard about it. At this point, I'm not sure I know WHAT Rage does any more...) So maybe a hit point penalty would be more appropriate than an Endurance penalty, or maybe BOTH, just at a lower level. It would basically be the opposite of Dull Pain, when Rage wears off, the hero suddenly feels the damage he took.
There might be a risk of a Tanker killing himself with Rage, but I assume Energy Transfer has the same thing, unless it prevents you from using it if you don't have enough HP.
A Def penalty AND a resistance penalty would be the same thing, really, since you would basically take more damage during the "exhausted" phase. Or, the defense penalty could be applied DURING the Rage.