foenixz

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Darsonist just turned 18 last night. He is my first tanker, and I will admit he is a bit of FotM -- it seemed like Fire tanks are pretty popular, I thought I'd see what all the fuss is about. Now that he finally has Burn, I put him up against some clocks in Faultline. Since he has only DOs and TOs, with only his shields fully slotted, I went with -1 and -2 spawns, consisting of maybe 6 minions, 3-4 lts, and 1 boss. I was running solo.

I started with Live to establish a baseline: my understanding is that the I4 Fire tank primary can be considered sort of the new standard for tanker primaries, ie, Invuln was brought down to the level of Fire (albeit with slightly different numbers). The spawn on Live came a little too close to taking me down; my health was flashing for about 30 seconds, but didn't actually die, and I would've been perfectly fine with a single green inspiration, I think. Burn did cause some noticeable yo-yoing, but it didn't seem like many of the mobs actually left the Burn patch for more than a few ticks, thanks to Taunt and Auravokes. With the base recharge, I could lay a second patch just a few seconds after the first one expired. Pretty significant damage.

On Test, my health barely got down to yellow. This was probably a combination of luck (not Luck), slightly better strategic use of Healing Flames/Consume, and decreased boss/lt accuracy. Yo-yoing with Burn was far more dramatic than on Live: after about three ticks, the entire spawn would bolt, with only half turning back to me within five more ticks. It seemed like mobs that turned back to hit me again had a strong chance for bolting a second time, too, which was different from on Live. Damage was still significant for those mobs who stuck around throughout most of the patch's lifespan, but this was only maybe a quarter of the spawn, not the half I was getting on Live. Damage change was too small to notice at this level. Recharge time was significantly longer; it reminded me of my blaster's Snipe. I'm not sure what the new DoT BI is, but seeing as I4 Burn had something like a 12, a 30% damage reduction combined with more Fear and longer recharge means it's still a strong attack, but one to be used less indiscriminately (I wouldn't lay down a burn patch to help take out a single minion, for example).

Summary: Based on what I saw, I'm comfortable playing with my Fire tank; while my testing is limited, I don't have any preconceptions about how he 'should' perform, and what I saw seemed appropriate to the role of a tank at level 18. Burn's new damage and recharge seem just fine, as does its functionality as immobilization protection (this lasts long enough that it should easily be perma-able). The one concern I have is with the Fear effects on Burn: I'm okay with the idea, but I've read some other posts that scattered mobs may aggro teammates. For example, if I'm running point with my Kheldian friend and fire off Burn, most of the spawn will scatter, and a few will aggro her instead of me. This makes Burn *extremely* undesirable in a team setting.

Suggestion: If the Fear effect of Burn is to be kept at its current magnitude, and not a bug as rumour suggests, then it should cause mobs to want to move 30-40 feet away (out of the burn patch a few yards, but not too far), switch to ranged attacks, and aggro the tank even more. This keeps the Fear effect that makes Burn a tricky power to use, without making it a liability and a danger to one's teammates.

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Does any other AT (tank or scrapper) have to use 5 slots and perma hasten (with its deliterious effect on end which makes it even harder to play a F/F tank with the our best attacks using a lot of end) to get protection from ONE, count 'em one status affect. Your observations have little merit testing this power at lvl 18. I made my tank long before it was a 'Flavor of the Month', or CoH became City of Fire Tanks, When you get to the 30+ game and you have to tank a 8man mission with Freaks(and their constant stuns) and lay down a burn for protection(out of site of the mobs so your fellow teamates can't get one shotted by a Champion smasher and you have to just stand there because you have one attack you can use and it takes up 25% of your end and stamina hasn't been slotted beause you had to 6 slot hasten and 5 slot burn it just doesn't seem that fun and every time your protection drops you have to run away to drop another Burn to keep you proection up so your squishy teamates don't get one shotted by that Tank Smasher who just showed ..... ad infiniteum. ad nauseum. where is the fun? Show me a build at lvl 30 where can do all that AND contribute. MAybe with a perfectly constructed team you can.
I tried respecing my F/F tank last night without burn and id a decent job of both managing aggro and dealing damage(what a Fire/fire tanker is supposed to do with inadequate protection) I also found I am not able to takn for even a 5 man team with mission set on rugged.

YOU DEVS gave us a mission slider and then used it a criteria for removing lessening key powers and making formerly super heroes into girley-men and little girls.

I dub thee Statesmen, as the CoH Syndrome, killing all supers in a never ending quest to make no one special.

If people want to PL, let 'em, it doesn't hurt ME, it doesn't hurt YOU, and if some whiners have their nose out of joint because of this, they need to get a life. Or better yet, pay atention to their own game and not everyone elses.

SynDrome ... I mean States has said it is no fun just standing there and clicking on one or or two attacks is no fun. Then what the hell is the early game all about. The boring repetitive missions?

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So is this issue just being ignored now? Just change it and let us deal with it, even though so many tankers do NOT like the change?

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Hmmm seems you are the only one keeping it alive

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Invuln has nothing to do with Rage. Rage is part of Super Strength, which isn't even a primary. Fire/SS is completely possible, and would suffer on both sides.

I flat out HATE the new Rage, but I've given up hope on it ever being changed. I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. Nothing said here will matter anymore.

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I disagree the DEVs have been really good a looking at both sides providing you give a persuasive argument of why something should be changed. The "it's not fun" argument is neither persuasive nor compelling. My SG has 2 high lvl SS tankers and neither of them especially liked the changes but have learned to be effective with them and even be happy.

And yes I know that RAGE is in the secondary power set but if you look at the Fire Secondary what is so much better about fire for damage than SS. As I see it, ENG is better than both for damage. Combine ENG with INV or FIRE and you have a really strong killin' machine

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And your point is?

Invul is better than Fire only if you're looking at how much damage the tank can take. If you're looking at how much the tank can dish out however, Fire far surpasses Invul. They do different things; this doesn't make one necessarily superior to the other. Both serve the function of a primary powerset, which is to protect the tanker, and they both do it well, as any Fire tanker can attest to. They just do it in different ways.

All of which has nothing to do with the current incarnation of Rage.

The current incarnation of Rage isn't fun, that's all it comes down to.

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And taking FAR more damage than the INV tanks while not being able to manage the aggro as well is fun for Fire/Fire? My best Damage is done DOT and AOE that means I should be able to manage the aggro at least close to what a INV tanker and yet I cannot time and time again I have seen INV tanks herd whole areas in a zone with +3s and +4s and remain standing. While I as F/F tank could barely manage to hold the aggro on 3 to 4 mobs let alone survive them.

You complain about ONE power in your set while overlooking that you have the single most resistant character in the WHOLE game to anything but psychic attacks. I remember when INV/SS tanks were the ugly stepchidren of this game. Try to be gratefull to the DEVS for that. It not being fun is not a compelling reason to change the power. I have a SS tank in my SG who rarely uses rage at all. When he plays this toon his goal is to manage the aggro for the damage dealers to kill the mobs

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Which gets back to the "tanks aren't supposed to do damage" mentality.

What then do you say to Fire, or Energy, or Axe, or Stone? Why is Superstrength forced to be inferior to these sets?

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Why then is INV so much better than Fire? Or why does Stone get protection from Psy and not Fire.

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Through my career most of the tanks I've teamed with have been of the invul/superstrength variety. In the past week, though, I've teamed with some other variants -- invul/energy, fire/ice, fire/fire, and fire/energy I think covers all of them. I have watched them closely to see how the sets work (especially since I have ten seconds out of every 100 or so that I can't do anything else).

Rage as it currently exists is flat out unfair.

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So have you experienced these other sets by playing them or is this just anecdotal evidence?

For a long time, I believed what was said on the boards. SS uses overly high endurance. It is balanced for damage based on the idea of rage constantly running. Look at the numbers!

...then I played my tanks.

My anecdotal evidence and experience says that SS is a good set. I'm guessing that you have more here than you posted, but I'll stick with what I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is that you're saying that the SS secondary is weak when compared to other secondaries and a highly damaging primary. That just doesn't seem to make sense. Have you tried Fire/SS? On the not fire side, so what if Energy does more damage? Have you compared endurance used, recharge times, and when certain powers come into play?

What I've seen doesn't appear to paint SS as a low damage, high end set. I think Rage is unfair. Not in the weak way though. I'm surprised there is a near permanent version of Build Up on a set that isn't gimp.


*Note my opinions keep shifting as new info is inputted. This view is a result from a bit of comparing different sets and views of them. Liable to change quickly

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My point is not about how relatively "good" a set is or not compared to other sets. You can't tell me that, even with Rage, superstrength can equal the destructive power of other sets like fire (primary or secondary) or energy. It can't, I know this for a fact. You know what? I don't particularly care that they're higher damage sets. What I do care about is that they get to deal their damage uninterrupted, while we have a forced ten second downtime every ninety to one-hundred twenty seconds where we can't do damage at all (or, incidentally, anything else). The logic (or lack of it) behind this escapes me. Yes, it is unfair. A higher-damage set is allowed to deal that higher damage uninterrupted, while strengthers are not.

I don't care if other sets have higher damage, it's the way it's dealt that bothers me. I don't understand why I'm punished for using my set to its full potential, when other more effective sets aren't.

The most important point, however, the one which it always keeps coming back to, is that it's not fun.

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Ok then give us fire tanks the abilty to take less damage, hold the aggro better, more resistances that are always one versus toggles, and while we are at it make it so we use less slots to max out our resistances the way SS tanks can, the abilty to use inspirations/fiery embrace/build up on burn .... help us with all that and we can talk about your 10 seconds of standing around being a meat shield for your team.

You keep talking about not being able to be an offensive powerhouse and how unfair it is that you can't do as much damage as other tankers can. But, I have yet to see you acknowledge how advantageous the SS build is when it comes to the sheer amount of punishent you can take vs other tanks. How many bonuses does the SS line have over all the others? How well can you herd entire zones over every other tank?

You want to be a damage dealer get a Fire tank and take all the damage one gets. Please quit telling us the SS/INV is broken because there is a down side to one power. Maybe I should be so passionate about my Eng/Eng blaster and nova?