Rage can be balanced by a slight end cost at the end of the power (-10 or so) and about half the amount of stun it turns out now.
Converting Rage to build up would need all of SS to be adjusted upwards to compensate for the damatically decreased damage, and yes...damage is important to a tanker.
Regs,
muffinlad
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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- As it stands, the stun is a big risk even with Unyielding. Most mobs have stuns that will knock off your toggles and 10 seconds is a long time during a raging battle for stun vulnerability. To me the current Rage penalty is perfect - it puts you are risk for a toggle dropping stun. The board is divided on whether Rage is worth the risk. Some people love Rage, and some people avoid it. Isn't that a good thing? Diversity of design and opinion?
- Is SS really a powerful enough build to nerf Rage? To me the SS tanker is so low on the totem pole of power builds that a large Rage nerf seems to me to be unneeded - gratuitous even.
- I personally don't like endurance drop as a penalty for using powers and it concerns me that design is relying more and more heavily on it. With the design of the game based largely on endurance draining toggles an Endurance drop really means being defenseless when the power fails. In addition you end up with boring and annoying downtime waiting for Endurance to come back. If you feel it necessary to use Endurance drain as a downside (which as I said I don't like) then I would prefer if Rage caused a period where all Endurance expenditures were increased instead of a flat out Endurance drop.
- I agree with one of the previous posters that from the numbers it looks like SS is balanced with Rage already in mind. With Rage the effectiveness of SS is comparable to Axe or Energy. Without it SS drops in effectiveness significantly.
- If there are a lot of SS tankers I believe that has much more to do with flavor (since SS is so common and loved in comics) than power level.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Why do you hate Super Strength Tankers Statesman? What vendetta do you have against them? Did one kick your puppy or something?
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That can't be it - it's not like we could've HURT the little puppy with one of OUR kicks, after all.
I'm just glad I haven't used my Respec yet. I was going to use it tonight, but now I have to wait - AGAIN - as States takes another 'look' at my AT... again.
Feh.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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States, Lets break this down:
"Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage becuase it turrned off toggles and left them helpless" <snip> So you make it so the end drop is 100% and do the same thing. Way to go Genius, ITS THE SAME THING.
"At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect." Uh You killed perma-ustoppable, remember. Oh wait the 200+ pages of that topic must of slipped your mind. Now you gunning for Unyielding. Nice, real nice.
"Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty." So you screwed them both, huh? I see now its balanced.
" We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!"
This "We're still looking at the issue" crap is about as close to you can say "Were sorry, tell us what we should do" as we are going to get from you, huh?
States, you've kicked the puppy one too many times.
If this kind of heavy hand to players who complain about powers is what we are going to get, woe be the lowly controllers whos going to get said helping hand from you.
Go back to teaching, maybe then you'll start to listen to your students again, for often times they have great and wonderfull ideas that you may have never concieved. Instead of punishing the whole class for one person making to much noise.
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Without it SS drops in effectiveness significantly.
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Good point, Moonlighter.
SS is supposed to be SUPER STRENGTH. I mean cmon, I'm fighting GREEN mafia men and it takes me 45 seconds to level one. It should take one punch. Bam, you're out buddy.
Super Strength should be called love taps or something.
When under the effect of rage, that is where dmg lvl should be I suppose for a super strength super hero.
But I guess this game isn't really about realism but "balance".
In that case, maybe City of Communists should be the name of the game, folks. 
--malign
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SS is supposed to be SUPER STRENGTH.
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Yeah if states is going to muck with SS, he might as well re-do the entire power set all together. And really make it what it should be
Okay, I've thought this through, and I've got here what might be an acceptable solution to the Rage "woes".
Increase the disorient mag of Rage as you level up, start it off relatively low, build it up to where it is now on the scale as you get closer to level 40+.
As I understand it, Rage currently has a 10 Stun magnitude? So when you first get it at level 28, start it off at level three mag (for example), level seven mag at level 35, and finish it on the 10 mag at level 40.
Keep the power as it is, but start the stun off low, increasing it as you go along.
This keeps the mid-level SS Tankers happy, but basically keeps things the same for +40 Tankers.
But whether others think this is a good idea or not, "the power ain't broke, it don't need fixin'".
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Yeah if states is going to muck with SS, he might as well re-do the entire power set all together. And really make it what it should be
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Hear hear, Metalo!
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At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding . . .
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woo hoo! my level 8 tanker is officially hardcore!!!
Please dont implement this change; the live version now is just fine. Ive tried out the new version on test and the endurance drop is just too much. (It kept dropping all of my toggles.)
I used to be a Perma-Unstoppable tank with the changes Ive adapted and can live with what I had to become, however if this goes live I might have to retire my tank for a bit.
I feel sorry for all the Inv/SS tankers out there who have already used their free respec because if this change happens it could be a build breaker. Ive been holding on to mine just in case the developers decided that Invulnerability needed more minor changes. 
I know I only have a couple of posts on these forums but I read them regularly.
States please stop helping tankers, at least Inv/SS weve had enough fun for now.
-------------------------------------
Virtue Server
Yank 41 Inv/SS Tanker
Lightray 35 Eng/Eng Blaster
Psi-Medic 22 Emp/Psi Defender
Psi-Warrior 36 AR/Dev Blaster
Milli-Rem 17 Rad/Rad Defender
Black Knight 3K 26 BS/Reg Scrapper
Bigby 26 Ill/Kin Controller
The crucial issue for me is the "feel" of the power. The common complaint that I've heard/seen about the Superstrength power set has been the lack of truly feeling "super". Damage was low, endurance usage was high, and, at least in my experience as an Inv/SS Tank, many battles wound up being a slow chipping away at the opponent's health, all the way nervously eying the Endurance bar, and hoping that the foe didn't have some form of regeneration or dull pain. With luck, and by restraining myself from simply mashing the more powerful and endurance-costly power buttons, I might eventually win. This experience felt very much other than "super"; while I might have wanted to be the Man of Steel, I was finding myself instead feeling as if I had the combat prowess of Jimmy Olsen.
The recent changes to the Invulnerability powers aggravated matters for me, but I did my best to cope. I reached 32nd level after the changes, and so never experienced perma-unstoppable. I did have Rage, though, and while it added a measure of risk, I felt it was worth it. With Rage, I began to feel that "super" feeling. I could go directly after that yellow (and sometimes even orange!) Lieutenant in a group of mobs, and with judicious use of inspirations, I could take him down before the Rage ended, all the while shrugging off the melee attacks of his minions. Sure, I now took ranged damage, but I could handle that. I accepted the period of stun at the end of Rage as a Tank's due, soaked up the damage from the remaining minions while staggering around drunkenly, and then gathered my senses and took them down. Gameplay was fun- my enjoyment skyrocketed after hitting 28 and taking Rage.
I've been playing alts on the live servers the last few days, experiencing the Winter event through the eyes of my lower level characters. I learned about the changes to Rage today on the boards here. I logged back onto Test and checked them out, and I'm saddened and disappointed to say that that "super" feeling is gone. Instead, I'm back to eying the clock, praying that the opponent doesn't have abilities that might stretch the fight past 75-90 seconds, and preparing to flee should I get too near the time limit. I haven't grouped with the changes in place yet, but I would guess that that need to flee if the fight drags dangerously near to Rage's time limit is likely to make Tanks less useful to the group than before, and would seem to bind them more strongly into a purely defensive, meat-shield role.
I would strongly urge that you and the development crew take a close look at what the changes have done in terms of gameplay and "feel." I think on the whole they have harmed CoH more than they have helped them.
Thanks,
The Bouncing Beatnik,
who really used to enjoy playing American Icon on Test.
The problem with the solution on the test server now, is that a super strength tanker goes from the possibility of toggle loss and stun from one more stunning hit, to a guarenteed toggle loss.
Whereas now, I can at least keep my status protection up to help protect myself from any other stunning/sleep/hold/immobilizing attacks while I ride out the disorient from Rage, with the current incarnation on Test, I am left endurance-less/held/chain-held/defeated 100% of the time.
Please leave Rage alone. Thank you.
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I was finding myself instead feeling as if I had the combat prowess of Jimmy Olsen.
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Rofl.
Let's face it, the comic-book world was unbalanced.
Pit Apocalypse against Toad. It's a given. Or Juggernaut vs. Jean Grey.
The dmg is just too low and end cost too high.
I'm actually embarassed to fight in teams because here I have this HUGE tanker, supposed super strength. But my girly hits take about 12 dmg a pop. I wouldn't want my teammates to say, "haha look at that girl." or "What's the hold up? That guy should have been laid out minutes ago."
But like you said Bouncin, I'm finding myself in far too many battles where I'm beating on the same guy for too long with no end left. And keep in mind my stamina is 6 slotted.
Unimpressive.
Give me Super Strength por favor!
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At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding . . .
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woo hoo! my level 8 tanker is officially hardcore!!!
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Wow, States must then feel then anyone thats like at lvl 14 with a travel power to be god like!
Really states, you've used your epic AT power to open up a Can of worms that Super Strength tankers couldn't. Bravo!
I am so far past bitter.
So, for my last tank post:
Tanks SUCK. They are extraneous to a good, well put together team. They arent needed for ANY high end content. In fact, they make a high end team WORSE. They are the suck against Hamidon, all 4 flavors of their defense. They are awful against the Rularuu, making them a horrendous choice for the Shadowshard TF's. They are awful at end management, meaning if you do have one, A) He cannot keep his end of the bargain in team and B) He's always out of end so you need someone dedicated to keeping him in the fight.
This all adds up to a lousy AT, which no one wants to team with at the high levels. I dunno what your testing shows, but in our SG, Evolution, on Virtue, which has taken down Hamidon several times, after you get your Tank to 50, we ask you to now please roll a useful character to participate in future SG raid content. This is an example of your Hamidon Untyped dmg balance(We use Regen Scrappers to tank Hamidon, since Regen doesnt suck and isnt gimped), your awful dmg for lousy defenses scenarios(No end means no killing which means more dmg/time which means worse defense, overall). All this put together means one thing, which I will try one final time to get across. I am well and truly finished playing this horrendous AT, even if it is the one I most truly want to play. Fact is, for protecting your teammates and shielding them from harm, Regen is far better in almost every case.
Here it is:
Tanks suck. They dont need to be nerfed. They suck. Nerfing Invuln for scrappers, you went too far, but I see where you were going. Nerfing invuln tanks is stupid. They already suck. Worse, at least with that nerf, you get moving UY. Rage? Thats just sad. DPS is already awful. SS is not even pwning the other Tanker secondaries. Its middle of the pack at best. It already has a miserable drawback.
SS does not need a nerf. Its like looking at a cripple, with one good leg, who can barely get around on crutches and shooting him in the other knee. Its cruel and unusual. Its totally extraneous. Its just mean. It shows lack of understanding. It shows lack of vision.
A better idea: make the penalty a -20 end penalty. Ditch the extra cost on UY.
Best idea: Fix the ice secondary before you gimp anymore secondaries for tanks. 2 minors and a moderate for attacks? What is the idea? Make them laugh to death fighting you? I dont even have the ice secondary, and I still feel sorry for anyone that was silly enough to pick it.
Please take a step back. Why gimp the worst AT in the game further? It isnt like people are owning with it. SS isnt as good with it as Axe and EM are without any rage/buildup at all.
Frankly, I think you are out of your minds. But I have divorced myself from this mess long ago. I realized when Positron made his famous "Alpha Strikes" comment long ago that tanks would never be any good and I left then, for first a blaster, then a scrapper, and then a defender. My Defender is sturdier than my tank. Thats embarassing. I can also outkill with my defender. I solo better and faster. I am better in a team. Oh, and I dont have "Draw Dev Aggro" as a special power on the defender.
I feel so sorry for tanks it isnt funny.
Abyssal Shade, 50, DM/Regen, Virtue
Meltdown Girl, 49, Rad/Psy
Proud member of Evolution
RIP Hamidon(12/21/04, 22, 23)
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I was finding myself instead feeling as if I had the combat prowess of Jimmy Olsen.
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Rofl.
Let's face it, the comic-book world was unbalanced.
Pit Apocalypse against Toad. It's a given. Or Juggernaut vs. Jean Grey.
The dmg is just too low and end cost too high.
I'm actually embarassed to fight in teams because here I have this HUGE tanker, supposed super strength. But my girly hits take about 12 dmg a pop. I wouldn't want my teammates to say, "haha look at that girl." or "What's the hold up? That guy should have been laid out minutes ago."
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And if you try to beef up with Rage and show em something, then they're left wondering why you're collapsing in a useless heap two minutes later. 
One thing about being an Invuln/SS tanker is that our own powers can do more harm to us than most of our enemies can. That has always struck me as being odd.
It's interesting to point out that Super Strength is the only Tanker Secondary that does not have Build Up. Rage is our Build Up, and even with all of its drawbacks, we still like it.
One more time, let's keep Rage as it is.
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They dont need to be nerfed.
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While I won't get as theatrical as SeeTen I do agree with his main point. Tankers are still a subpar archetype. Even with the new changes, as far as being useful and desireable, Tankers are far below the other archetypes in regards to a team.
Lousy End consumption, defenses with glaring holes for what is supposed to be the dominant Defensive archetype, lack of a useful role in the latter part of the game, they only thing they have going for them is cornering the market on some of the most popular concept powersets. Can anyone really say they would rather play a /SS tanker then a SS/ scrapper? Certainly not me.
By the way, Nozybida, it's good to see you back with the old Tanker avatar.
The 100% endurance drop is untenable.
When Super Strength Tanks asked for more damage, we were told that this was not possible, as Rage balanced us against the other Tanker secondary sets. Fair enough, but this does require having Rage be a useable power. The self-stun may be annoying, but it was something a thoughtful player could deal with.
The adjustments in Issue 2 were a great step forward for Super Strength. This Rage 'adjustment' is a step backwards.
What can I say, I must be a glutton for punishment? 
I really, really, really want to play my tanker. I really want to see tankers on par with their counterparts. I just can't rationalize spending the time on him though when I have a scrapper alt.
Increase dmg please!
OR, give them 50 more points of end. (They're hulking powerhouses, cmon! The Hulk is tireless folks.)
OR, decrease end cost for powers.
OR a mix of the lot. Devs please. This archetype could be so much better than it is. I beg of you.
The players have spoken!
I feel like a wall mark happy face, but states, I'm sorry you and your "crack" team of SS testers got it wrong. Roll it back. Or we will sign on the wallmart rollback happy face to do it for us. <j/k>
Its simple. It ends now. I urge the rest of the community to make it clear and known. One simple statement. Okay team.. All you have to do it post:
ROLL IT BACK!
ROLL IT BACK!
ROLL IT BACK!
Enough posts of just that from everybody.. well what are they going to do?
The Tanker is already strapped for Endurance, unless you go the whole Fitness route, which takes up a lot of powers that could have been used on Tanker powers instead. Putting an endurance penalty on Rage would be disasterous for lower and mid level Tankers. The current system of having you get stunned after it drops is harsh but can be avoided, as stated multiple times in previous posts. Any penalty to this power should be token, that is if the Devs are REALLY interested in inproving the Tanker, which they SHOULD! (I don't see how the changes to Invincibility have accomplished that though. Haven't they done the exact opposite?) I don't like the idea of pulling over a power from another powerset to replace Rage. Keep the SS Tanker unique. In my opinion, the Tanker is STILL below the other Archetypes and any changes should be to make them better, more damage dealing, and more useful.
I especially oppose any change to the Tanker that makes him more dependant on teaming in any way, shape, or form. You should be able to play his game solo from lvl 1 to lvl 50. Not everybody likes teaming and being pressured into teaming is a sure-fire way to drive some players away.
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One key issue remains toggle dependency on a lot of Tanker builds. If some of the passives were more effective that dependency might be less of an issue...
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Excellent point Lothar. I'm an Inv/SS tanker. I rely heavily on temp invul. It's like the only thing that makes me feel impervious to dmg. After rage subsides, it gets turned off. And I seem to take 50x more dmg without temp invul.
All I know is, without temp invul, my health drops very fast from an orange or red. And I mean fast in certain instances. I've died a few times because of this. Couldn't walk away fast enough because of stupid disorient.
Which brings up what Mira222 said:
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I can understand a bit of an endurance drain at the end. A complete endurance drain seems extreme. This power is not in the same league as something like Nova.
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Rage doesn't take out a whole gang of thugs immediately. You still have to take 1 guy out at a time. Work them down. And since SS doesn't have ANY AoE until you get stomp (clap doesn't do dmg) it's not like it's a devastating power or anything. Maybe slower end regen for a limited time?
It makes sense. You go spastic then you're tired afterwards.
--malign