SG mode to determine base rent?
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2005-08-22 09:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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- SG Mode is often quite ugly, even the SGs that use it often use an entirely seperate costume slot for a uniform.
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Yeah. The decision to go into SG mode should be 'do I want to benefit the team, instead of earning renown for myself?' and not 'Will these bandoliers look good in lilac?'
I can see why they do this.
It encourages supergroups to...well, act like supergroups. But not really.
Statesman and the rest of the Freedom Phalanx. Under these rules, the Pillar of Paragon City and friends get jack, zero, and zippo Prestige. How'd they build that swank base?
An SG uniform is cool, but heroes tend to be individuals. We are not all the Fantastic Four, we do not co-ordinate our uniforms. The FF4 do. The Avengers don't. Nor do many super-teams. Even ones like the X-Men have very muted "uniform codes" depending on the artist. :P
I'm a member of Champions. We have SG uniforms, but most of the time, we're in our standard pre-SG colors (or paint jobs, if you're an armored robot like me. 
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Don't penalize us for looking like Statesman and company. Let us earn prestige without messing up our good looks doing it. Heck, bases are due to have mission-generating computer terminals in them.
Let us generate Prestige doing THOSE. Send an urgent call from the Mayor to Champions Central, begging our help to stop the Devouring Earth from consuming the EPA office! Broadcast these missions on the SG channel when they're generated. We'll come running (flying, teleporting...) to help.
OK everybody - big, deep breath. Ahhhhhhhh.
Everyone's had an opportunity to knee-jerk react. Now let's carefully consider this concept of prestige.
It appears that at one time the devs intended bases to be purchased with influence. They apparently changed their minds, probably because they discovered some unfortunate side-effects if using influence. We will probably never know what exactly they found, but we can make an educated guess. You only need to think for a few moments to come up with a few flaws on your own, such as:
- There is no spare influence before level 38 or so. Look at how conflicted people are in this thread choosing between their own needs and their group needs for just their chest insignia - well how would you feel about having to choose between your needs and your group needs when you hit 20 and are allowed to buy a cape. or at 30 and can buy an aura, or a few SO's to keep your character from falling behind in effectiveness? It creates an uncomfortable, un-fun choice.
- Bases are a group reward. They should be earned by group activity. If influence is used to pay for them, you know who will have a kick-booty base? Random Loner PL Guy, who may never even team with his SG (if he even has one), but PLs ppl for influence, or PLs his toons on his other account. He's piled up lots of influence this way, and his base is going to be SWEEET! And that alt-a-holic supergroup over there, with 70 toons played by 8 close friends who team together every day, but has not a single toon over level 25 - your incredible teamwork has earned you a shack!
- There's no way to set a datamining limit. Influence has been in the game since day 1. By creating a new currency, the devs create the ability to set a date to begin earning that currency. In order to not have a gross imbalance between villain bases and hero bases (remember, we'll be raiding each others' bases for items of grooviness), a cutoff date sure seems very useful. Say - right around the CoV release?
OK, so influence is bad. Prestige is created to reward group activity.
But what about all that influence you saved up hoping to buy a base? Sorry, but you can't expect the devs to release a feature with flaws in it just because you chose to act on very early, speculative information. At least learn from this - you can choose to start running around in SG mode all the time in hopes of earning the Palace of all Uberness when bases become available, but you still don't have all the details - you may find that you're not doing it right or (very likely) that it won't start counting until a future date that will likely be announced by the devs at some point.
Allowing prestige to be purchased with influence? Hello, flaws we tried to exclude by creating a new prestige system, come right on in and make yourself at home. 
It won't work.
So what's broken? That darn chest symbol! But that isn't a problem with the Prestige system - it's a flaw in Supergroup mode.
You want to complain at the devs about something? If you waste your breathe on using influence instead of prestige to buy bases, you probablyl aren't going to get anywhere. After all, they started with the idea of using influence, and found reason to abandon it. They aren't likely to go back, especially with CoV already in beta. Instead, ask for things that are more likely to be provided:
Can we please have all the symbols available for SG symbols, instead of a subset of the available costume symbols?
Can we please choose to use the SG or our original character chest option in SG mode, like we can control for each other individual costume piece?
Heck, bases aside, I'd find those to be great improvements in Supergroup mode - wouldn't you?
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SG need more room. LOTS more room. Yes, the majority of SGs may be smaller, but some of the most loyal groups in this game are simply too big to fit in one SG. Our alts should all be contributing to the same base, not 4 different bases because of the arbitrarily low limit of 75 per SG. Never have I seen a good technical (or any other) reason why 75 must be the limit. Raise the limit, preferably by a factor of at least 5, or even abolish it altogether. This is major obstacle to Prestige being a workable system.
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Don't SG size caps actually help us get a better system for base purchasing? It means that being in an uber guild doesn't get you a bigger base. It means that they can have a frame of reference for the fastest (75 active level 50s) they want bases built and the slowest (1 active guild member). I think having a size cap on Supergroups is as wise as having a level cap on characters.
That said, if we do have to start worrying about every SG slot being 'efficient' we have a problem. Maybe the solution is that every Supergroup can have 'reserve' team of 300 or so. Commanders can promote and demote to the reserve team but there would be limits on how often this can be done.
If you are on the reserve team, you talk on alliance chat, can't go into SG mode, can't gain prestige for the group, can't particpate in raids, and can't certain parts of the base.
The reserve team is where you put inactive characters.
Nice post Crazy.
It's not like Lord Recluse is asking people to cut off their index finger to get a base. It's something simple, and optional. I don't seem to hear the outcry about the datamining for badges, or new badges, with issue releases.
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Bases are a group reward. They should be earned by group activity. If influence is used to pay for them, you know who will have a kick-booty base? Random Loner PL Guy, who may never even team with his SG (if he even has one), but PLs ppl for influence, or PLs his toons on his other account. He's piled up lots of influence this way, and his base is going to be SWEEET! And that alt-a-holic supergroup over there, with 70 toons played by 8 close friends who team together every day, but has not a single toon over level 25 - your incredible teamwork has earned you a shack!
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*blink*
*evil grin*
If 'doing things' means 'completing missions' as opposed to just earning XP, then Prestige may just be the ultimate PL disincentive.
I still say datamining would be a terrible idea, and SG mode should be about losing personal rewards in return for a benefit to the group (instead of being to do with how you LOOK) but the above makes me gleeful.
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I don't seem to hear the outcry about the datamining for badges, or new badges, with issue releases.
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That's because badges have been awarded for activity that was also rewarding at the time. Being in SG mode was a totally arbitrary choice. It makes no sense to reward it.
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But what about all that influence you saved up hoping to buy a base? Sorry, but you can't expect the devs to release a feature with flaws in it just because you chose to act on very early, speculative information.
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Speculative? They've posted screenshots of bases being built with Inf, Inf was used by people at E3. This is the first time they've ever mentioned it might not be Inf.
If they have an actual problem with using Inf, they can post what it is, the problems you posted don't sound very convincing to me, certainly not worse than the problems with this system.
As I said before, the whole influence vs time spent makes no sense, either way. Time spent is too easy to exploit, and inf... well, we know what kind of inf people are holding onto....
Better to datamine what was accomplished during supergroup mode -- and then look at how many people IN THE SG were participating and use that as a multiplier.
That way one lone hero with his own personal SG could theoretically save up enough to build a base... but it'd be a tin-roof shack compared to what an active SG, regularly teaming together, could build...
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
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I don't seem to hear the outcry about the datamining for badges, or new badges, with issue releases.
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That's because badges have been awarded for activity that was also rewarding at the time. Being in SG mode was a totally arbitrary choice. It makes no sense to reward it.
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But, isn't that also true for SG mode? Rewarding something that was being rewarded at the time? Was is immediately visible? No. But the field is there. Just like all the new badges people will be getting when I5 hits live. Data not immediately visible to them, but they'll get the reward based on past actions.
Besides, there's plenty of time before CoV hits. It still gives CoH a 'leg up' on CoV players in that they know in advance what generates the bonus for bases and can start working towards it. CoV players are stuck until it goes live. I suspect it will balance out, over time, with CoV getting the influx of new and active players.
Which is why I disagree with the whole INF for a base bit. That is a _huge_ advantage for a CoH player over a CoV player. How many SG's have multiple 50's in them, with tens (if not hundreds) of millions of INF? Every CoV player will have 0 INF when CoV starts. Gross unfair advantage.
The limited bits of the prestige system for the base reward seems to be the most fair, taking in account CoH _and_ CoV players.
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I don't seem to hear the outcry about the datamining for badges, or new badges, with issue releases.
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That's because badges have been awarded for activity that was also rewarding at the time. Being in SG mode was a totally arbitrary choice. It makes no sense to reward it.
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But, isn't that also true for SG mode? Rewarding something that was being rewarded at the time? Was is immediately visible? No. But the field is there. Just like all the new badges people will be getting when I5 hits live. Data not immediately visible to them, but they'll get the reward based on past actions.
Besides, there's plenty of time before CoV hits. It still gives CoH a 'leg up' on CoV players in that they know in advance what generates the bonus for bases and can start working towards it. CoV players are stuck until it goes live. I suspect it will balance out, over time, with CoV getting the influx of new and active players.
Which is why I disagree with the whole INF for a base bit. That is a _huge_ advantage for a CoH player over a CoV player. How many SG's have multiple 50's in them, with tens (if not hundreds) of millions of INF? Every CoV player will have 0 INF when CoV starts. Gross unfair advantage.
The limited bits of the prestige system for the base reward seems to be the most fair, taking in account CoH _and_ CoV players.
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Wouldn't Data mining be equally as Hurtful to the newbie villains? Since they also haven't had months to run around in Sg colors...
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Wouldn't Data mining be equally as Hurtful to the newbie villains? Since they also haven't had months to run around in Sg colors...
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To some extent. However I suspect just the volume of new (and CoH players) will quickly close the gap. But I do think Pillbugs suggestion of having a cut off date on the datamine would be a bit more fair. Something close to the CoV release date, would keep it even.
But, long term, would it tilt the scales to CoV? Considering how many SG's there are without fully active members in CoH, and you can guess CoV is going to be pretty active for the first few months.
Of course the Dev's have access to numbers that none of us have.
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But, isn't that also true for SG mode? Rewarding something that was being rewarded at the time? Was is immediately visible? No. But the field is there. Just like all the new badges people will be getting when I5 hits live. Data not immediately visible to them, but they'll get the reward based on past actions.
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'Being in SG mode' isn't an action.
It's one thing to give a badge for Killing Skuls, healing other players or doing a TF. We chose to do those things because they were rewarding. There was no suggestion of a reward for being in SG mode, ever. Rewarding people retroactively for being in SG mode is like rewarding them for wearing capes or doing the boombox emote. It's completely random. The only reason for doing it is so that a few people can start with bags of Prestige and show off their bases. As someone else said, you may as well hand Prestige out at random if you're going to do that.
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The limited bits of the prestige system for the base reward seems to be the most fair, taking in account CoH _and_ CoV players.
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I'm not opposed to the prestige system as stated, but I'm definitely opposed to datamining (which would also be unfair to CoV players) and think SG Mode should involve more than just a costume change.
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'Being in SG mode' isn't an action.
It's one thing to give a badge for Killing Skuls, healing other players or doing a TF. We chose to do those things because they were rewarding. There was no suggestion of a reward for being in SG mode, ever. Rewarding people retroactively for being in SG mode is like rewarding them for wearing capes or doing the boombox emote. It's completely random. The only reason for doing it is so that a few people can start with bags of Prestige and show off their bases. As someone else said, you may as well hand Prestige out at random if you're going to do that.
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I believe Lord Recluse mentioned that the player would have to do 'stuff' to accumulate the prestige points in SG mode, not merely be in it. So, it is associated with an action.
As for the badges, they weren't initially known, nor were the numbers. Just like the speculation on prestige. When the update hit Live for the badges (for those not on test) they were greeted with the "Badge earned" message due to datamining.
SG mode has been a part of the game. Just like killing Family bosses have been. You could skip going into SG mode, that's your choice. Just as you could skip killing Family bosses. But, you also miss out on the reward for doing such. It's an active decision the player makes.
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The limited bits of the prestige system for the base reward seems to be the most fair, taking in account CoH _and_ CoV players.
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I'm not opposed to the prestige system as stated, but I'm definitely opposed to datamining (which would also be unfair to CoV players) and think SG Mode should involve more than just a costume change.
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I'd disagree with the SG mode being more. Simply because you're going to have a lot of early level CoV players coming online when it's released. They're not going to be in a position of being able to afford to skip (or take a reduced hit) INF for being in SG mode. The present set up for SG mode is easy and fair. Just click it on.
Now, that being said, I will agree with the point that the costume options really do need to be improved for SG mode.
Nice post, Crazy. Some random thoughts...
The 75 person SG limit is becasue of base raids. ~150 people is the most you can have in an instance without getting problems on the server, so that makes the SG limit 75 (to accomodate both the attacker and defender). More comments on this later.
The more I think about it, the less I mind the idea of an SG-linked currency, ie Prestige. But there are some pitfalls that have to be avoided. The biggest one is this: CoH is the only MMO available (OK, that I know of) the divorces aesthetics from gameplay. In any other game, you have to sacrifice appearance for ability - almost anyone will take the ugly pink +10 plate instead of the cool looking non-magical chainmail. With the way the system is currently described, CoH tosses this feature out the door. You have to choose to sacrifice cool for a base. This is completely arbritary and non-sensical; how would you react if you were told that they were implementing a 10%xp bonus to anyone with red in their costume. These two systems are exactly the same - you get a game mechanic bonus becasue of an aesthetic decision.
So what needs to be done? SGs need to be overhauled. Prestige earning mode needs to be seperated from SG costume mode. A personal sacrifice of xp and/or inf needs to occur when in prestige mode, in order to make the decision to enter it a non-trivial one. Since the SG membership limits are based on technical limitations to the # of chars in an area, switch the limit to 75 accounts, since each account can only have 1 char logged in at a time anyway. And while you're at it, add 1-3 more levels within an SG, with editable permissions; despite how well it does many, many things, CoHs guild management is far behind the state of the art.
OK, have to catch my breath now, I'm sure I'll be back later.
Edit: CLeared up some typos. Probably missed some others.
"Trust me, it worked in the Simpsons." - Calash
Personally, I have no problem with datamining, it's just what data is being mined. CoV players are going to be starting from scratch anyway; not much to be done about that (although I do think villains ought to get bases more easily than heroes; I just wish I knew what real estate agent they go to to find all those hollowed-out volcanoes).
Attaching prestige to "time spent in SG mode" penalizes those of us that saw no attraction in the offerings of SG mode, and had no idea that we could somehow be penalized for it in the future.
I'm Dark Star. I have a star on my chest. I don't wanna be Dark Cube!
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I believe Lord Recluse mentioned that the player would have to do 'stuff' to accumulate the prestige points in SG mode, not merely be in it. So, it is associated with an action.
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Yes, associated after the fact. SG mode has never been significant in the past, so why make it retroactively significant?
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SG mode has been a part of the game. Just like killing Family bosses have been.
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And defeating Family bosses was incentivised by making them worth XP and Influence. Going into SG mode was never incentivised. Whichever way you slice it, rewarding being in SG mode retroactively is arbitrary.
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The present set up for SG mode is easy and fair. Just click it on.
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... and stay in SG mode permanently from that point onward, since there's no reason not to.
Not sure if its been pointed out, as this will aleviate those who have an SG but don't want to wear SG colors (As opposed to those that don't have a Supergroup)
You CAN (in the settings) make your supergroup mode costume exactly the same as your normal costume. It does allow you to default to the color it already is.
That is all, thank you
Well, not sure if this idea has been brought up:
But how about prestige being earned by teaming with SG members?
This would be earned by the SG not the player. You would get more for more people teaming.
The thing is, is that the current idea, doesn't actually encourage SG activity.
A SG that plays together reguarly, but uses their individual uniforms, will get NO prestige.
While a SG that is ALWAYS in SG mode, but always play seperately, will get prestige.
Does this make any sense?
I understand why they want prestige instead of influence. With prestige, you can have the amount gained be independent of the level of the player. This means that a SG of lower levels will be able to get a decent base, by teaming together. Of course, a SG that has played to higher levels will have a better base, due to having played longer. (That and you probably won't be able to trade prestige...)
THAT would encourage SG teaming.
Here are a couple problems with this if it goes in this way:
For reference: LoneS.T.A.R. Honor Guard
1) In the above picture are members of between 3-5 SG's. They are all based on LoneSTAR, but we have split into several other SG's to accommodate the alts of players. They are some mains and some alts depending on the player in question. Because of the number of members in our SG, we cannot fit all of our heroes and alts in one SG. Just our SG dedicated to level 50 heroes has 40-45 members in it. The one for our mains is full at 75. And there are 3 other teams for alts. Will you increase the SG limits to accommodate large SG's?
2) The LoneSTAR SG uniform requires 4 colors (Red, White, Blue, Gold). The SG costume option only allows for 2 colors. This would greatly hamper us in our chosen appearance. Will you expand the SG costume options to include 4 color choices?
3) Most SG's in the comics do not have a like uniform or colors. In fact, very few actually do. Forcing the SG's that choose not to use this feature into having to use it is not only detrimental to their chosen way to play, but not supported in the very medium upon which this game is based.
4) Isn't this somewhat counter to the whole idea of having this great and extremely flexible costume creation system if you are telling the heroes they must be in SG mode in order to maintain a base?
5) Since you, Lord Recluse, point out that just being in SG mode does not get you prestige, I assume you mean we need to be grouped and/or gaining XP. This, once again, smacks of forced grouping. This is a very bad and highly unpopular idea. Please refrain from doing this if it is in fact what you had planned.
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But what about all that influence you saved up hoping to buy a base? Sorry, but you can't expect the devs to release a feature with flaws in it just because you chose to act on very early, speculative information.
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Speculative? They've posted screenshots of bases being built with Inf, Inf was used by people at E3. This is the first time they've ever mentioned it might not be Inf.
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Yes, speculative. Screenshots of future features currently in development. Advance demos shown by marketing at a video game conference of how cool bases will look and how flexible the base designer might be. They may bear some, little, or no resemblence to the finished product. That's what "in development" means.
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If they have an actual problem with using Inf, they can post what it is, the problems you posted don't sound very convincing to me...
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They weren't intended to sound convincing. They were the result of "if I stop and think for 30 seconds what might go wrong with using influence, what can I come up with?" And for the record, I find them pretty convincing. We can disagree on that.
In the end, it doesn't matter whether they convince you or not - what matters is this: the devs found a reason. Enough reason to take already developed code (you've seen screenshots and played with it at E3, remember) and change it. We may never know those reasons, and really aren't entitled to them (although they could choose to expose that information, but I can't see the incentive for them considering how hard they get jumped upon for every little nugget of info they do give out).
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...certainly not worse than the problems with this system.
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And what are the problems with this system? The only problems I've seen discussed are:
- Datamining is unfair because we didn't know we were supposed to be in SG mode. This isn't a problem with the prestige system, it's a problem with picking a fair date to begin the datamining. This complaint is based on speculation (again) that the devs will datamine until the beginning of time. If it's worth scrapping developed code in favor of creating a whole new currency just to create fairness, it's probably worth it to choose a fair date to datamine from. My money's on that date revolving around when villains will be able to start earning their version of prestige (but hey, I'm speculating! Wheeee, what a fun word!).
- My influence-gathering time has gone to waste! Not a problem with the prestige system - a problem with life. Sometimes speculating on a hot tip pays off big, sometimes you come out looking like the heel. I do have some sympathy for folks who spent their time strolling down the wrong path to uber-basedom (and even I, a dedicated Icon-a-holic, have been managing my influence more carefully in preparation for the arrival of bases), but not so much that I'd ask the devs to install an unfair, broken system into the game to assuage the frustration of those who chose to engage in speculation.
- SG Mode interacting negatively with your costume - not a problem with Prestige - a problem with SG mode. Kinda the whole point of my post: want to rant? Rant against what's really broken!
If you got a problem with Prestige that isn't actually a problem with something else, please, let's discuss.
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Not sure if its been pointed out, as this will aleviate those who have an SG but don't want to wear SG colors (As opposed to those that don't have a Supergroup)
You CAN (in the settings) make your supergroup mode costume exactly the same as your normal costume. It does allow you to default to the color it already is.
That is all, thank you
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Well, it has been said before, but that still doesn't help those of us that don't want to change our emblem. Would Superman lose his S? Batman his Bat? Wonder Woman her eagle? Flash his lightning? And then replace that with a big J or something?
If anybody can add to this list-- Old X-Men, New Mutants and Fantastic Four-- any other comic SGs that all wear the same threads, I'd be very interested in that information...
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- My influence-gathering time has gone to waste! Not a problem with the prestige system - a problem with life. Sometimes speculating on a hot tip pays off big, sometimes you come out looking like the heel.
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I've not been setting out to earn wodges of Inf in the hope of building a base with it. I just have stacks of the stuff, and was hoping it would actually be useful for something other than making costume alterations, which of course I do.
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2) The LoneSTAR SG uniform requires 4 colors (Red, White, Blue, Gold). The SG costume option only allows for 2 colors. This would greatly hamper us in our chosen appearance. Will you expand the SG costume options to include 4 color choices?
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You can use the colors you have now in SG-Mode. The only thing that's mandatory in SG mode is the chest symbol. You can enter SG mode and have it just change that symbol and not touch your colors at all.
As for SG costumes: it seems that most SGs in Marvel use SG colors. DC tends not to. Just because you are in SG mode doesn't mean you all have to wear the same colors and costumes. My SG functions a lot like the X-Men or Gen13 where everyone has a different looking costume with the same theme (black/white and the crash dummy symbol).
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Well since we have an 18-page thread that I have made sure to read as much of as possible, there isn't much I can do but add my agreement to much of what's already been said, but in doing so hopefully something can be done about this situation. It looks like some people have partly beat me to it while I was spending my quality game time composing this, but here goes anyway.
A few people here have recalled an old statistic the game used to gather that counted how much time you've been in SG mode, and since the actual data gathering code was never removed, just never used, obviously some bright spark decided it would be a great idea to resurrect this and use it to fund bases.
Why do they think this is a good idea? Well, when you think about it, the Devs think they are killing several Rikti with one Nova here, but their method is flawed. Ive always been a proponent of not complaining about a problem without thinking of a way to fix it, so here's why I think this is bad and how I would do it instead:
<ul type="square">[*]Dev Goal #1: To encourage people to use SG mode more. Many have said here their SG rarely uses it Problem: The real reason people don't use SG mode more is that it kinda sucks.
The SG mode itself ruins many costumes and many people will not want to use it. It replaces any bandoliers, straps, and concept-specific logos with a very restricted subset of the normal chest logos. It should be obvious by now how much players value their costumes - even if they dont use the SG colours, forcing a logo onto a costume that looks better without one spoils things a lot. Also, by doing this, they are turning SG-mode from a 'don't care about' thing into an 'absolute must do all the time' thing; I don't want to have to bully my SG members into SG mode to afford our base. Forcing it on people is, in my opinion, worse than having people never use it.
Alternative to achieve Dev Goal #1: Make the SG mode more fun Samuel_Tow is absolutely spot on when he says "Somebody once said that if you want more people to use a certain piece of content more, make an effort to make that piece more fun, rather than trying to force people into using it." Give SG mode some features that people want to use. How about a trial (or a range of trials) to unlock SG-mode only costume pieces? And how about finally letting us change the colours and logo?
[*]Dev Goal #2: To give new players and old players an equal chance to have bases - hence not using influence as base currency. Problem: While the concept of a separate currency is fairly good IMO, the implementation does not create an equal or even fair footing.
My SG has been around since beta and has always, ALWAYS, encouraged SG teams first and foremost, yet since we use SG mode so rarely we will be worse off than a much newer, less active SG that sues SG mode all the time. Our SG prides itself on diversity of character and culture; why should we be penalised because we don't have an in-game theme or colour-coordinated wardrobes? On top of that, the highly-themed SGs, with SG uniforms, don't necessarily use SG mode either so now they are penalised too.
Alternative to achieve Dev Goal #2: Calculate prestige on XP earned while teamed with another SG member. After all, playing the game together is first and foremost what a SuperGroup should be about! Yes Devs, you will have to code it from scratch, but frankly, I dont care. If you want to create something fair, be prepared to put the work in. We the players will thank you. Reusing an old stat that seems to fit the bill is an easy way out and WILL create problems.
[*]Dev Goal #3: Datamine the stats to give something to long-running SGs. Problem: Nobody ever thought time spent in SG mode would mean anything, so the reward you are datamining is based on highly arbitrary data.
You may as well randomly assign Prestige. I'm not even kidding here.
Alternative to achieve Dev Goal #3: Calculate the datamined Prestige on how much time each character has been in the SG. It's still not a fair system by a long shot, principally because it penalises SGs with alt groups that people swap in and out of, but for a one-shot thing it would be fairer than the current proposal. Just to be clear on this, in no way am I suggesting this method should be used for calculating Prestige normally.[/list]
While I'm at it, there is 1 more point I would like to make that I think are important if a Prestige system is to work:
SG need more room. LOTS more room. Yes, the majority of SGs may be smaller, but some of the most loyal groups in this game are simply too big to fit in one SG. Our alts should all be contributing to the same base, not 4 different bases because of the arbitrarily low limit of 75 per SG. Never have I seen a good technical (or any other) reason why 75 must be the limit. Raise the limit, preferably by a factor of at least 5, or even abolish it altogether. This is major obstacle to Prestige being a workable system.