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Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Players complain when an AI stacks mutliple powers but they tend to do the exact same thing to the AI?
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I don't know why it's so amusing. If the AI could think and speak for itself, it'd be complaining all to hell.
Thankfully, it can't. Could you imagine the boards if they could? *shudder*
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I didn't think it could get more flamey and whiney...until now! 
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Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
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Whoo. I think it would be cool if you mixed it up, so you dont get just big groups of Earth thorns, or big group of Fire, or big groups of Air . Having a few of each kind would be far more interesting than getting smoked by stacking powers from one type of mob.
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That's a pretty good idea. I don't think it's a good idea to remove debuffing from what mobs can do, but it seems to be implemented in a "either no debuffs, or they debuff you to the minimum movement" fashion.
Mix them up, have more debuffs but more types so they stack less.
Verdict:
Adrenalin Boost (single target final empathy power for Defenders/Controllers) completely negates the effects of slow powers if I recall correctly. I have had it used during dozens of stacking caltrops and during stacking quicksands and the target hero can travel normally again.
So, while the whole 'team' isn't pulled out, perhaps one person can be. Others have mentioned other techniques for whole teams (group teleport, available to any AT, taken by none, would be one such option).
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Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
AAARGGH!
I have to agree with MindMasterZero, here -- very disappointed to see this. This was *finally* a way to differentiate the contributions of a Tanker and Controller as supporting roles. A controller can't get folks out of quicksand, sure. But, a controller *can* prevent ETC's from ever getting quicksand off in the first place....
As things stand right now, the usefulness of a controller is far to often redundant with a good tanker. I was happy that there was *finally* a reason for teams to occasionally say, "oh, we'd better get a controller for this mission". It was the first step towards something that's needed to be addressed for a while. I really hope that, by scaling this back, they don't scale it back so far as to make the controller contributions irrelevant.
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Forgive my laziness, for those who are passionate about this issue; but what exactly is the problem with stacked quicksands? I've done hordes of COT casters, and from a controller's perspective, they've never been an issue that led me to cry "nerf!"
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A single minion auto-casted 2 Quicksands and I honestly believe that one of the casts was, in actuality, Tar Patch with the -Res and Slow.
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Ok. What sort of builds did you have available on your team? For instance, did your controller pop in stealthed/inviso to AOE hold them, preventing most/all of them from throwing the QS at you? Did you try teleporting/hovering out, or throwing pets in their LOS so they absorbed the QS attacks?
What were your tactics at the time that were failing? Because the Devs as my witness, I've never had an issue taking these mobs out with a healthy application of tactics based on the team's build. I'm primarily a controller, but I've also done /NRG blaster and Warshade on these mobs, and each one has its own way of dealing with the situation - so that's 3 ATs that, AFAIK, can take these mobs on without realistic suffering.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
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There is also another group in the game that behaves the same exact way as Thorn Casters, Knives. They throw multiple caltrops which have the same slowing/holding powers as quicksands. I think it would be a reasonable idea to consider them as well.
Furthermore, speed boost is a great power to overcome quicksand and caltrops, unfortunately you cannot apply speed boost on yourself and siphon speed does not grant this desireable effect either. Maybe this could also be looked at.
Huzzah! Further proof that legitimate issues do get addressed.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
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Great to hear Geko. Those derned Earth Thorns were so annoying I would skip all my CoT missions in the 30s.
Thanks for listening!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is also another group in the game that behaves the same exact way as Thorn Casters, Knives. They throw multiple caltrops which have the same slowing/holding powers as quicksands. I think it would be a reasonable idea to consider them as well.
Furthermore, speed boost is a great power to overcome quicksand and caltrops, unfortunately you cannot apply speed boost on yourself and siphon speed does not grant this desireable effect either. Maybe this could also be looked at.
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Glad to see someone else agrees with me on siphon speed. It makes absolutely no sense that speed boost negates slows, but siphon speed doesn't. They are essentially the same power with all the same buffs (except the endurance regen for siphon speed) I imagine siphon speed should have a reduced slow resistance since it's recharge boost is lower as well. But then you would just have even more reason to slot it with recharges and stack it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is also another group in the game that behaves the same exact way as Thorn Casters, Knives. They throw multiple caltrops which have the same slowing/holding powers as quicksands. I think it would be a reasonable idea to consider them as well.
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Just to be clear, Quicksand is -spd, -jump -fly -def.
Caltrops is -spd, -jump, minor DoT.
Moreover, KoA minions don't have very dangerous ranged attacks and they have no AoEs at all. ETCs have the AoE stalagmite attack, throw boulders (with knockdown) and expressly retreat to perform ranged attacks (while KoA minions close to melee).
While I wouldn't complain if KoA caltrops were made less silly, I have never been threatened by even the most preposterous stacking of Caltrops. I have died a number of times to the revised ETCs. I thank the heavens that they only exist for a 5-level range.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
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I bet the Thorn Casters will get pissed you're nerfing them too. Nerfs for everyone!!!
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[ QUOTE ]
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
AAARGGH!
I have to agree with MindMasterZero, here -- very disappointed to see this. This was *finally* a way to differentiate the contributions of a Tanker and Controller as supporting roles. A controller can't get folks out of quicksand, sure. But, a controller *can* prevent ETC's from ever getting quicksand off in the first place....
As things stand right now, the usefulness of a controller is far to often redundant with a good tanker. I was happy that there was *finally* a reason for teams to occasionally say, "oh, we'd better get a controller for this mission". It was the first step towards something that's needed to be addressed for a while. I really hope that, by scaling this back, they don't scale it back so far as to make the controller contributions irrelevant.
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1: Personally, when weighing the decision of whether to get rid of earth thorn caster's ability to use quicksand and the small benefit controllers might get by the earth thorn casters having it, I'll nerf the thorn casters.
2. Controllers, if seeing any benefit at all from thorn casters, would only see a very small increase in demand because of them. It's not like everyone in the 35-40 range constantly does CoT missions.
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I don't mind one quicksand patch, but when they stack 6 of them in one spot, that's brutal.
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SIX?! I should be so lucky. Want the screenie I took of me, trying to plow through 15? Painful.
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In one Oranbega mission I was in, it got to the point that my primary role in the team became teleporting out of the quicksand and then recalling my partner before he died. 
I never had that much trouble with the Thorn Casters. I liked that they were a bit troublesome. However, I might have just been luckier than others. I don't have a problem them being adjusted, as long as it's not overdone to the point where they're just minions with more hit points.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
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Wow ... that's too bad!
I actually thought they were well built badguys. Really damn tuff but not overtly soo to any specific AT.
Every AT I tried against them had a challenge!
They were well built. 
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I agree. I'm going to miss the challenging mobs. Especially since it also was one of the few situations I really loved my Teleport.
IMO, I think part of the problem (besides the multiple-ETC spawn) is that the Quicksand is almost always at +level. Those +level debuffs are more powerful than even-level or -level debuffs. If that is true, I'd rather the dev's limited the number of ETC mobs/spawn, and lowered the effective level of the debuff, before making any other changes.
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1: Personally, when weighing the decision of whether to get rid of earth thorn caster's ability to use quicksand and the small benefit controllers might get by the earth thorn casters having it, I'll nerf the thorn casters.
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Like I said, we're moving towards every single mob being a reskinned skull. Whee! Ive got a better idea. Next, lets dispense with the middle man of a tank herding, and just have them all spawned stacked inside a dumpster. Fish in a Barrel online will be the greatest MMOG ever!
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2. Controllers, if seeing any benefit at all from thorn casters, would only see a very small increase in demand because of them. It's not like everyone in the 35-40 range constantly does CoT missions.
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Actually, Id move to make every faction like this. With mobs that debuff and buff each other. Limit the total % that can be debuffed/stacked, and make them toggles (so a brawl, or any status effect will shut them off). You create a purpose for holds. Right now, a tank provides near 100% protection with taunt that never misses and is largely unkillable. Thats a boring, predictable environment. The game needs more challenge, Id prefer it coming from enemies who arent such pathetic losers they have something to do other than throw a blast. The Tsoo sorcerer is a great example of how to design a mob. It adds difficulty without one shotting. It can be taunted, but you really wish he would just sit still and die. A tanker AND a controller can both contribute on a team. Why do these guys die out only to be replaced by more basic chumps?
If they change anything, they should upgrade the thorn casters to lts, and the behemoths get dropped to minion status.
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't they just use the DE code? Have you ever noticed that there is only one emanator of a type out? A sentry will wait till the other sentries Cairn dies before he will bring out his. Why not with thorns and KoA? That way when one wears off another thorn will throw out his quicksand.
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1: Personally, when weighing the decision of whether to get rid of earth thorn caster's ability to use quicksand and the small benefit controllers might get by the earth thorn casters having it, I'll nerf the thorn casters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said, we're moving towards every single mob being a reskinned skull. Whee! Ive got a better idea. Next, lets dispense with the middle man of a tank herding, and just have them all spawned stacked inside a dumpster. Fish in a Barrel online will be the greatest MMOG ever!
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2. Controllers, if seeing any benefit at all from thorn casters, would only see a very small increase in demand because of them. It's not like everyone in the 35-40 range constantly does CoT missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, Id move to make every faction like this. With mobs that debuff and buff each other. Limit the total % that can be debuffed/stacked, and make them toggles (so a brawl, or any status effect will shut them off). You create a purpose for holds. Right now, a tank provides near 100% protection with taunt that never misses and is largely unkillable. Thats a boring, predictable environment. The game needs more challenge, Id prefer it coming from enemies who arent such pathetic losers they have something to do other than throw a blast. The Tsoo sorcerer is a great example of how to design a mob. It adds difficulty without one shotting. It can be taunted, but you really wish he would just sit still and die. A tanker AND a controller can both contribute on a team. Why do these guys die out only to be replaced by more basic chumps?
If they change anything, they should upgrade the thorn casters to lts, and the behemoths get dropped to minion status.
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I am in 100% agreement. More buffs and debuffs, at least until they're ridiculously stacked like Quicksand seems to be now, will be good for the game compared to more damage and more mezzing.
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As things stand right now, the usefulness of a controller is far to often redundant with a good tanker.
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EVERY AT is redundant. One of the major things that makes teaming bearable in CoH is that you don't have to sit around saying "Shoot, we can't really get this team moving without a Controller/Defender/Tanker/Whatever and there are none on." You can pretty much throw darts at the search screen and, assuming the players are reasonably competent, have a viable team. That's a good thing.
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As things stand right now, the usefulness of a controller is far to often redundant with a good tanker.
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EVERY AT is redundant. One of the major things that makes teaming bearable in CoH is that you don't have to sit around saying "Shoot, we can't really get this team moving without a Controller/Defender/Tanker/Whatever and there are none on." You can pretty much throw darts at the search screen and, assuming the players are reasonably competent, have a viable team. That's a good thing.
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But wopuldnt it be cool to have synergy? The tanker rounds up, the controller locks down (shutting off mob toggle powers). Both can do their job without the other, both benefit from the presence of the other. For the *majority* of mobs, it doesnt matter if they are held or not, so long as they are focused on the (near unkillable) tanker. When I was leveling up my tanker I was grateful for controllers to be around to *help* (read, I didnt *need* them) with mobs like avalanche shamans. As you rise in level, the value of those holds fade out, since mobs powers get more lame.
What I dont want is the thorns going from a faction with tricks up their sleeves to some bland weenies who just have blasts. It seems thats all people want to encounter... fodder that offers no challenge, and exists only to be rounded up and leisurely nuked. Level 50 skuls in different outfits.
Id rather them tweak the ETC's exp up so that people try and build tactically balanced teams than dumb them down and remove their powers altogether. Put a cap on how many quicksands they can drop, have the power go away when the mob dies, etc, but dont remove it entirely just because its difficult.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
AAARGGH!
I have to agree with MindMasterZero, here -- very disappointed to see this. This was *finally* a way to differentiate the contributions of a Tanker and Controller as supporting roles. A controller can't get folks out of quicksand, sure. But, a controller *can* prevent ETC's from ever getting quicksand off in the first place....
As things stand right now, the usefulness of a controller is far to often redundant with a good tanker. I was happy that there was *finally* a reason for teams to occasionally say, "oh, we'd better get a controller for this mission". It was the first step towards something that's needed to be addressed for a while. I really hope that, by scaling this back, they don't scale it back so far as to make the controller contributions irrelevant.
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Not every team has a tanker and a controller...
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Id rather them tweak the ETC's exp up so that people try and build tactically balanced teams than dumb them down and remove their powers altogether. Put a cap on how many quicksands they can drop, have the power go away when the mob dies, etc, but dont remove it entirely just because its difficult.
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I have no problem with their current power selection. It's the stacking that I consider a problem. The post above about using the DE emenator code (or whatever was done to Tsoo for that matter) would help considerably.
Last week I met spawns of 5 Thorn Casters in a two man team. That's a lot of Quicksands.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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As things stand right now, the usefulness of a controller is far to often redundant with a good tanker.
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EVERY AT is redundant.
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I strongly disagree, but some of it may lie in ambiguity in my meaning. By redundant, I mean: can provide no additional value to the team.
Damage dealing, for example, is never redundant (at least, in the way I'm talking about). More damage dealers make fights go faster, which adds value to the team.
More buffs and debuffs add value to a team, even if you've already got some.
When a good tank is holding aggro, the various mezzes a controller has at his disposal add no value to the fight. Sure, he/she can prevent the tank from taking damage. This doesn't speed up the fight, and, in most cases, changes the level of risk for the tanker from 0.0002% chance of dying to 0.0001% chance of dying. Most fights will look exactly the same if the controller actively locks down mobs around the tank, or if the controller sits and twiddles his thumbs. (Talking 30+ game, here.) And *that's* the redundancy I'm talking about. Add to that the fact that tanks can also herd several spawns together, and there's little reason to get a controller once you've got a tank.
Really more what I'm saying is: mez effects add no value over a tank's aggro control, and a tank's aggro control *can* add value over mez effects.
I'm all for having sets *overlap* in providing support -- what I'm against is a redundancy where one AT *always* is a better option than another, in any situation.
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Not every team has a tanker and a controller...
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Which means, "I'm only completely useless *sometimes*."
But, lest I come across as being to extremist on this issue, I'm not saying the status quo is fine -- I recognize that this needs to be scaled back to the point where you don't *have* to have a controller to do a mission. But, I sure would like it if enough of these guys stayed around so that an occasional mission is doable without a controller, but faster and easier with one.
The DE-logic transferred to deploying quicksand, for example, sounds like a great solution to me.
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Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Players complain when an AI stacks mutliple powers but they tend to do the exact same thing to the AI?
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Yes, but we're the good guys.
____________________
Quantum Knight
Level 47 Kinetic/Energy Defender
Guardian Server
"I may," he said with a grin that would have sent sane men scampering for the trees, "have been imagining it."