Issue 5 Features Preview: Forest of Dread
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2005-06-29 09:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yeah that does suck. Defenders are getting more and more unneeded all the time. Groups would rather have control than weenie blasts.
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Then that's a balance issue, not a uniqueness issue. Having more unique sets wouldn't help that--if Controllers currently provide enough defense that teams think they don't need a Defender, why on earth would the teams change their minds because there's a new Defender that has different colors on his debuffs? Do you encounter many teams at high levels that say "We need a Controller because those Defenders are useless unless they're Dark/*"? If the existence of Dark/* defenders isn't a factor that teams consider when choosing a controller vs a defender, then adding more unique sets isn't going to help, either.
Now, if teams are really picking Controllers over Defenders for defense, that's probably a good argument that Controller secondaries need to be toned down (does every controller power really provide 80% of the benefit? I thought there were some that were identical.) But it's got nothing to do with the number of unique sets.
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Again and again I point out it is not perfect balance that must be achived but rather perfect domination that must be avoided. If two defender sets are vastly better than the rest then their is an issue. The exact same issue that occurs when two AT are better than the rest.
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Which two defender primaries are better than all the rest, and which two ATs are better than all the rest? Just curious; I honestly can't imagine what those two might be.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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I have more or less given up posting on this forum for a variety of reasons, but I feel the need to say two things:
1) Issue 5 looks quite interesting.
2) Some of you whine a lot.
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You speak the truth. Except I would say,
1.) Issue 5 looks FREAKING AWESOME
Lookin' good Devs!
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Which two defender primaries are better than all the rest, and which two ATs are better than all the rest? Just curious; I honestly can't imagine what those two might be.
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Rad and Dark. Dark can do everything except boost your endurance and comes with pets, rad can do everything except free you from mez(though it does halve your mez duration).
The two AT's that are far better than the others are Controllers post 32 and Tankers in their current state. Nothing can really compete with tankers in terms of damage to be taken(rightly so) but also damage able to be dealt(thinking mostly of energy, fire(primary), and axes here as I don't have much experience with others)
I really could care less that defenders are shaing their powersets with blasters and controllers. That allows for more customization amongst AT"s, which I think is very good. Sure unique powersets would be nice, but I honestly don't see why people are getting bent out of shape over them.
And the whole balance issue: "This powerset is stronger than this powerset. Why would anyone use this powerset? It's the weakest of the bunch!" I've never played this game with the mindset of making the most "uber" build, or choose powersets because I thought it was the most powerful or "the flavor of the month." (Heck, my primary uses Psychic Blast.)
I choose my powers because it fits with my character and I have fun simply playing the game. With every issue or "nerf" that comes around, I honestly have never had any major gripes or problems with them. Quite the contrary, I actually enjoy the game even more with every issue that comes by. And it's been that way for me consistently for the past year. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I just wanted to let the devs know that there are those of us who genuinely enjoy what each issue has brought to the table.
May the Heavens smile upon you, fellow heroes! O;-)
VIRTUE:Psychic Angel [Strm/Psy Def], Psychic Demon [Fire/Psy Dom], Spider Mime [Crab], The Cast Iron Chef [DB/WP Brute], Paintball Wizard [Dual Pistols/Sonic Cor], ACME Archer [Grav/Trick Con], Johnny Sonata Jr. [Sonic/Energy Blas]
EXALTED: Quantum Angel [PB], Psycho Angel [Necro/Psn MM], Holiday Spirit [Ill/TM Con]
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Feeling a little like Counterstrike here ..... but I like it!
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Ya, the exact same image came to mind. Superhero format! Totally cool! 
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Rad and Dark. Dark can do everything except boost your endurance and comes with pets, rad can do everything except free you from mez(though it does halve your mez duration).
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Dark can free you from mez?
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Nice. Can't wait to make a bow defender. Gonna be sweet.
One question though. Why did you decide to put in Druids? Tuatha de Dannan=Druids. I've seen the witches before, but the druids are new, aren't they?
Edit: I mean, I see why they're there....forest of dread and all, just a bit shocked you went with the lesser known name (understandable)
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Actually, the Tuatha de Danaan were a race of gods and demigods who defeated the Fomorians and ruled over Ireland during a golden age.
The Druids were the priests of the pre-Christian Celtic religion--not just in Ireland.
Not quite the same thing.
CGU:
Honor Harrison: 50 PB
CGS:
Capt. Arabella Blood: 50 Ice/Kin C
Maiden Might: 50 SS/INV B
Valentina Metis: 50 NW
Dark Falconayra: 45 EM/DA B
Imperiatrix: 45 Fire/Kin C
Fiona Flitterwing: 47 Ice/Kin C
Doc Electroshock: 43 SM/ELA B
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I would like to see issue 5 fully make Controller secondaries 80% in all aspects.
As is, powers like Enervating Field, etc. work exactly the same.
I almost wonder if Controller secondaries should be 50% effectiveness across
the board, but that's a topic for another thread.
3 cheers to the devs for new content!
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Talk about nerf herding. How about if blasters said defenders do too much damage and the devs should reduce defender secondaries from 66% to 33% with a damage cap if 300% rather than the 400% now? Rooting for nerfs benefit no one.
The game does break down sometime in the 25+ range where tankers and scrappers get too tough. Its up to the devs to decide how to handle these imbalances. If they go too far and people leave in droves, then its on them to fix it.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Plus, States is all over that mythological junk - uhh, i mean, stuff. Fun stuff. Amazingly and exciting fun stuff. That is fun. :]
-LP
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States, someone didn't sound sincere enough... LOL!! 
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Which two defender primaries are better than all the rest, and which two ATs are better than all the rest? Just curious; I honestly can't imagine what those two might be.
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Rad and Dark. Dark can do everything except boost your endurance and comes with pets, rad can do everything except free you from mez(though it does halve your mez duration).
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Personally, rad, kinetics, and dark seem fairly balanced when it comes to soloing. Kinetics and rad definitely have pros and cons when it comes to group buff. Dark seems to be a better solo set than empathy or force fields, certainly, but empathy and FF are at least as good if not better team buffers than dark, even with dark's bag of tricks.
You could argue rad and dark being slightly better overall, but I doubt you could argue that they are decisively better overall.
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The two AT's that are far better than the others are Controllers post 32 and Tankers in their current state. Nothing can really compete with tankers in terms of damage to be taken(rightly so) but also damage able to be dealt(thinking mostly of energy, fire(primary), and axes here as I don't have much experience with others)
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Restricting the conversation only to the post-32 game, then, I don't see post-32 pet controllers universally better than scrappers, say. Having played one of the supposedly "uber" combinations of ill/rad, I can't see that the set is universally better than all scrappers, and it doesn't even have the order of magnitude faster soloing speed so many people seem to think it has. DM/invuln probably solos faster than Ill/rad.
Are tanks, as a set, better than scrappers, as a set. Hard to say; my experience with actually playing tanks is much lower than with scrappers. But I don't find them massively "better" than me when I'm teamed with them. They can take a ton more damage, most of the time, so that does make them inherently more survivable. But they don't necessarily pump out equal damage to scrappers - at least, no tank I've teamed with besides burn tanks is consistently outdamaging me when I'm playing a scrapper. Or a blaster, for that matter. Energy transfer used to be the big fat exception to all this, but with the boost to the self damage, you can't just arbitrarily consider attack chains that use energy transfer as fast as you can cycle it. End, especially, seems to be the thing that holds back tanks from operating at their mathematical peak more so than (most) scrappers.
Whats probably the most interesting thing to me is that even if rad and dark are the "best" defenders, they do not appear to be overrepresented among defenders on average. And tanks and "post-32" controllers do not appear to be over represented among the ATs in general. So it seems not everyone shares this opinion, or alternatively, enough people don't care when they decide what to play. Either way, this issues itself does not appear to be hurting hero diversity.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Yes, Rad and Dark do work in a team mission setting. I hotly contest any assertion that they are "better" than FF. FF may be less entertaining to play. That's an incredibly subjective assertion and I'm not going to debate it with anyone. But don't tell me that they have lower utility to the team. It's not true.
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It's far more than less entertaining, it's also incredibly less useful. We bring no innate heals and have to waste a power pool just to get aid other(an interruptible short ranged long timer heal), no endurance boosts, no accuracy buffs, no damage buffs, no crowd control other than knockback which aside from only buying 2-4 seconds is the most often resisted form of crowd control, no pets, no sleep protection, no resistance buffs, no resistance debuffs, no auras, and the coup de grace the force fielder is the WEAKEST and LEAST PROTECTED person on the team and seldom benefits from any of their own powers. On ice tankers and SR scrappers FFers do almost nothing.
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On the flip side I know what it's like to be a Blaster or a Scrapper (especially) with bubbles on. It really is god mode like 95% of the time. It ups the level of foes you can battle about +2 just by increasing your survivability. And it requires little planning or forethought.
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Again, great for you maybe, not great for the FFer. You see while you are fighting those enemies(which are by your admission at least +2 to what is normally fought(generally +2-3) with nearly capped defense the force fielder is standing there with around +40% defense against +5's and no way to increase their damage, protect themselves, heal themselves, or boost their accuracy. Phase shift is one of the most common pool powers bubblers take for just this reason.
I've played have a rad and dark defender as well as a kin and storm controller. FF is far far worse than all of them, particularly post lvl 40, but also against anything with psi, untyped, autohit damage, or toxic damage(yay 25% unenhanceable resistance) which have become much more pervasive in the game since launch. Furthermore the knockback powers which I assume were meant as an added measure of control do almost nothing and frequently just irritate the scrappers and tankers. We have the big 3(insulation, deflection, and dispersion), the rest are superfluous fluff that serves no real point than to fill in the other 6 powers. Btw since you know defenders so well, without looking them up, what are the other 6 powers besides those three fields?
I'm just curious how many you know or how many you have used since you seem to know better than FFers what we are capable of.
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Which two defender primaries are better than all the rest, and which two ATs are better than all the rest? Just curious; I honestly can't imagine what those two might be.
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Rad and Dark. Dark can do everything except boost your endurance and comes with pets, rad can do everything except free you from mez(though it does halve your mez duration).
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Just to be clear, last time I checked Dark can't clear mez or help you resist it. Dark can't help you attack faster. Dark can't give you any DR against fire or cold. Dark can't give you DR, Defense or Damage buffs that go with you wherever you are, meaning to get benefit from the Dark Defender you must go to places in the battle that the Dark Defender alone determines. If you need or chose to battle foes outside those dilineated areas the Dark Defender does zilch for you.
All the same restrictions are true for Rad except that Rad can give you a damage and attack rate buff. Rad is also a crappy healer compared to everyone except Force Field.
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The two AT's that are far better than the others are Controllers post 32 and Tankers in their current state. Nothing can really compete with tankers in terms of damage to be taken(rightly so) but also damage able to be dealt(thinking mostly of energy, fire(primary), and axes here as I don't have much experience with others)
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That is waaaay subjective. I think you may be the first person I've seen in months claim that Controllers are a runaway AT.
Tankers is a tough call. I do not consider them "the best" AT by any even remote stretch of the imagination. I do think they are awfully tough in practice. I am loath to see the devs modify Tanker toughness because I consider it likely to cause a totally undesirable ripple effect into the survivability of every AT except maybe Blasters. Moreover, I see it possibly having an effect on damage dealing balance for Scrappers and Blasters.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Sorry Chron I goofed there. But having fearsome stare to prevent the mezzing is more than any force fielder can get. I'd trade the 6 other powers besides the big 3 for just fearsome stare. Let alone fluffies, stackable resistance debuffs, pets, accuracy/damage debuffs.
It's ridiculous the amount that force fielders can't do. But because we provide YOU with enough defense to do well everything is just fine in our powerset.
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Dark can't help you attack faster.
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Doh again..
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Dark can't give you any DR against fire or cold.[ QUOTE ]
Heh that's kind of splitting hairs there, just fire and cold you say?
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Dark can't give you DR, Defense or Damage buffs that go with you wherever you are, meaning to get benefit from the Dark Defender you must go to places in the battle that the Dark Defender alone determines.
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Conceded but you also have three helpers making that area pretty damn big as well as debuffing the damage and accuracy of said foes. And where I said damage buffs/resistance debuffs I should have just said damage amplification. Dark, storm, and rad gets resistance debuffs, kin gets fulcrum shift and siphon power, emps get fort
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If you need or chose to battle foes outside those dilineated areas the Dark Defender does zilch for you.
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Other than paralyze them with a massive cone fear and hold them down with 3 pets that heal.
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Yes, Rad and Dark do work in a team mission setting. I hotly contest any assertion that they are "better" than FF. FF may be less entertaining to play. That's an incredibly subjective assertion and I'm not going to debate it with anyone. But don't tell me that they have lower utility to the team. It's not true.
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It's far more than less entertaining, it's also incredibly less useful.
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Blatant falshood. (The less useful part at least.) Unless the foe is such that the added defense is completely negated (only true with the most extreme level differences, Nemesis with heavy Vengeance stacking, or DE Quartz) your players are immune to nearly everything that most foes throw at them. Even if mezzed by a Psi attack, most other attacks will miss them until they wake up.
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We bring no innate heals and have to waste a power pool just to get aid other(an interruptible short ranged long timer heal)
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I've taken a "healer" to a Force Field fight. I felt pretty damn useless. Getting heals on a FF Defender is a "nice to have". If you didn't like the pool power then you should have skipped it.
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no endurance boosts
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Welcome to Storm and Dark
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no accuracy buffs
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Welcome to Kinetics, Storm, Rad and Dark
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no damage buffs
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While they get one, I think most Storm Defenders aren't really enamored of theirs.
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no crowd control other than knockback
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Welcome to Kinetics.
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no pets
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Welcome to everyone but Dark, and by some measure Storm.
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no sleep protection
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Oh, but wait, you get every other mez type. And unlike any other Defender in the game, you can give yourself mez protection.
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no resistance buffs
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No, but you can make your teammates unhittable except in a few well known situations.
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no resistance debuffs
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I counted these in damage buffs above.
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no auras
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This is a separate category from all these other things you're listing?
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and the coup de grace the force fielder is the WEAKEST and LEAST PROTECTED person on the team and seldom benefits from any of their own powers.
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Welcome to being an Empathy or a Kinetics Defender.
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On ice tankers and SR scrappers FFers do almost nothing.
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Yeah, and healers don't do much for Regen, DR buff powers don't do much on Invul and some Dark characters.
Besides - there aren't that many SR Scrappers and Ice Tankers out there.
So, basically you provided a list of every possible Defender power that FF doesn't have and listed them. I've pointed out that except in one case at least one other Defender Primary also lacks them.
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I've played have a rad and dark defender as well as a kin and storm controller. FF is far far worse than all of them, particularly post lvl 40
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Based on what? I mean my God, at least back statements like this up. I have over and over explained how things like runners, phasers, knockback, accidental aggro, and other effects make it hard at best to make good use of Dark or Rad as defensive power sets. Explain in exact terms what, besides the kryptonite of Psi damage, is so bad about Force Field. Toxic we expect to be changed, and untyped is also either a bug or Hamidon, who nothing helps with.
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against anything with psi, untyped, autohit damage, or toxic damage(yay 25% unenhanceable resistance) which have become much more pervasive in the game since launch.
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We covered this. I agree that this is crap. This is crap because it's a bad design and it's badly designed in other power sets as well. It needs to be fixed in all of them.
Any situation that invalidates an entire powerset sucks.
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Furthermore the knockback powers which I assume were meant as an added measure of control do almost nothing and frequently just irritate the scrappers and tankers.
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Welcome to the life of Energy Blasters and Martial Arts Scrappers.
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We have the big 3(insulation, deflection, and dispersion), the rest are superfluous fluff that serves no real point than to fill in the other 6 powers.
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Welcome to about 1/2 the power sets in the game. I'll agree with you that this shouldn't be the way this works. However, I'll continue to disagree with you on the merits of the good powers you do have.
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Btw since you know defenders so well, without looking them up, what are the other 6 powers besides those three fields? I'm just curious how many you know or how many you have used since you seem to know better than FFers what we are capable of.
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Way to be juvenile. "I bet you can't name 3 obscure powers from a power set you don't play! That reduces the validity of your opinion!" Whatever, man.
If you think I don't know what I'm talking about somewhere in my posts, how about you point it out? Call me on something. Try me.
Sorry, buck-o, but I didn't base my opinion on the lesser used powers. I based it on your "big three" and Dispersion Bubble. Yeah, all your powers should not suck. Tough Hide shouldn't suck. Self-rez power shouldn't suck. Crippling Axe Kick shouldn't suck. Resilience shouldn't suck. If 1/3 of your power set blows ask for it be fixed instead of clamoring that the Defender lines that may not be broken should be made so.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I really could care less that defenders are shaing their powersets with blasters and controllers.
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This is gonna be a bit nitpicky, but why is it assumed that Archey and Sonic blast sets were originally meant for Defenders? Ranged blasts are a Blaster primary, so whose to say that Blasters aren't sharing them with Defenders and not the other way around?
Told ya it would be nitpicky didn't I? 
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The Cabal of witches, the nasty imps called Red Caps, the giant Fir Bolg and the legendary Tuatha de Dannan rule this realm.
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I have a problem with the "children of Danu" being a villain group. The Fomors I can understand, but I always thought the Tuatha de Dannan were supposed to be "good guys."
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Also is there a reason controllers need to play with trick arrows? I understand defenders, who will be learning archery...
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Yeah, trick arrows for Controllers sounds real dumb to me. Let the Defenders have them, give us Controllers something else. Like something that makes sense in combination with Mind Control...
Buy Eben Brooks' new CD Geek Mythology, with four City of Heroes/City of Villains themed filk songs, for only $10!
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The Cabal of witches, the nasty imps called Red Caps, the giant Fir Bolg and the legendary Tuatha de Dannan rule this realm.
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I have a problem with the "children of Danu" being a villain group. The Fomors I can understand, but I always thought the Tuatha de Dannan were supposed to be "good guys."
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Not all is as it appears.
/em runs off in a puff of smoke laughing
I will assume there will be an explaination. I forget how many qualifacitions States has, but as I remember it it was an insane amount. He knows what he is doing and there will be a wow explaination in there some where. I haven't studied any Celtic mythology, but I think I will soon just for the sake of this zone.
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Mission Customization Many existing missions have been updated with hostage escort missions, villain wave attacks and more!
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A) So now missions will require the team to escort/protect the hostage and the blasters? 
Grand.
B) I have a hard time beating 2 Earth Thorn Casters by myself (with my blaster). The thought of waves of bad guys.....no. Plz no. Oh god no. Seriously....plz test this out thoroughly with blasters teamed and solo. I can already see the problems....with things in their current configuration.
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Way to be juvenile. "I bet you can't name 3 obscure powers from a power set you don't play! That reduces the validity of your opinion!" Whatever, man.
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I was pointing out that when a player with as much time in game doesn't know what 2/3's of a set does it probably doesn't do anything useful. It wasn't an attempt to belittle you or reduce the validity of your opinion, sorry if it came off that way. Just making a point that no one knows and no one really cares.
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If 1/3 of your power set blows ask for it be fixed instead of clamoring that the Defender lines that may not be broken should be made so.
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I don't know what you're talking about in terms of defender lines, but as far as asking devs to change it I have. I've been doing it since November. I've made posts in test, general, issues and suggesitons, controller forum archetype and powers forum, and the defender forum(numerous numerous times, ask around my force field cynicism is infamous). The only response I've received, even after an incredibly civil 100+ post discussion on force fields was from a PM Statesman replied to from someone else, and THAT person posted it on the defender forum. A single sentence(that was posted at least) said something like "we've got our eye on it".
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Sorry, buck-o, but I didn't base my opinion on the lesser used powers. I based it on your "big three" and Dispersion Bubble. Yeah, all your powers should not suck. Tough Hide shouldn't suck. Self-rez power shouldn't suck.
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Indeed, but the "lesser used" powers should never comprise a majority of the powerset.
And of course the one thing that it is supposed to do, provide excellent defense, it does with exceptions that continually increase as you level up.
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If you think I don't know what I'm talking about somewhere in my posts, how about you point it out? Call me on something. Try me.
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Ok, in your reply to me you mentioned the "Welcome to" phrase 8 times in order to illustrate the that other powersets have those weaknesses. The problem is that force field has ALL of those weaknesses. Welcome to Force Fields.
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I have a problem with the "children of Danu" being a villain group. The Fomors I can understand, but I always thought the Tuatha de Dannan were supposed to be "good guys."
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Well, not necessarily. They were sort of a mixed bag from the earliest accounts. Some were basically decent (as long as you were on their side). Others were...well...not so nice. Take the Morrigan, for example. She personified lethality, with overtones of terror and "venomous animosity".
Consider also that we are not necessarily dealing with the original People of Danu--for the most part, we'll likely be encountering those descended from them after they were banished. All sorts of fey creatures could be lurking about, some of them quite ill-disposed toward humans. On top of that, some sidhe were said to be shape-shifters, so there's no telling what they might look like (until we get more screenies, anyway).
I wonder if the Cauldron, the Spear, and the Sword will turn up? Given that Ireland hasn't sunk beneath the waves, I presume that the Stone is accounted for to some extent.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
Great new features. Keep up the good work folks. But I must say one thing that's eating me alive.
Statesman said...
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BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels. Defenders should fill a valuable role at ALL levels and help Archetypes achieve levels that they can't reach by themselves. After all, Defenders are all about buffs (and debuffs). Every Archetype should be extremely happy when the Defender provides a resistance or defense buff...
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Yup, can't agree more. So, since many of us felt this way because we feel we're replaced easily by a Controller why did you make the sets shared? We've been howling about this for ages. We'd just like to make Defenders unique. You know?
Person 1: "I got a guy with Trick Arrow."
Person 2: "Oh? Controller or Defender?"
Person 1: "I also got a guy with Rad."
Person 2" "Neat. Controller or Defender?"
Person 1: "And a Kinetics."
Person 2: "Um, dude, are they Controllers or Defenders?"
Person 1: "Huh? Oh yeah, sorry, I got a Dark Miasma."
Person 2: "Yeah, I've always wanted to play a Defender." <----Blamo. Instant AT recognition by choice of powerset.
That's a problem...
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...
For complete details on what Issue 5 will bring to City of Heroes, including a new Croatoa Task Force, new power sets, mission customization, new zone events and much more, please visit our Issue 5 ...
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Not to put a damper on things, but unless it's hidden in the new Epic badges, I guess no L50 respec trial, eh?