PVP should NOT affect PVE
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2005-04-27 22:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Don't you find it the least bit interesting that now that they are trying to shoehorn PvP in, they are suddenly discovering all these powers that were "already broken"?
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Possibly they knew they were broken, but spent their time on issues they thought were more important. Some of these changes may seem small but even a tiny change can take a load of code to pull off. Plus, since they are powers available to everyone and know they are fighting each other those that did not take superspeed or superjump are penalised for taking an "inferior" travel power.
Just for referance on how much work the devs have put into many of these patches I'll list a few specifics of a project I've done. A middleschool level spelling game with over 10,000 words and an unbelieveably large amount of potential combinations. Database of around 40+ students in the base version. A few thousand lines of code. All of the files related, including every single revision we made over the 10 week project, total to 3 megs. Including documentation.
That is nothing compared to the size of the typical patch that comes out with each issue. The changes may seem small and insignificant, but I've had bugs that had me dodging through 10-15 files just to finally nail the sucker. One of which was a small flicker when someone changed screens between a certain combination.
A small change almost always seems to be the hardest.[Bitter] But I'm thinking that's because people ask me to change their system after they claim it's finished.[/Bitter]
Tactics aside, SJ/SS having no toHit penalty let one use them as a super hero would. This was fun. Why is it you never see a hero over level 10 fly in battle? Because it's not fun to fly at 5mph and still be able to hit something. Switching between toggles mid-battle is a pain. Teleport is a non-issue, because you always go your maximum distance with teleport...
So, in order to keep balance, you're destroying one of the most fun aspects of the game. I can no longer feel like a true superspeeder while in battle, darting around and still hitting things. No longer can I leap across a building to hit that Freakshow Juicer hovering just out of reach. For the longest time, I haven't been able to have a true ariel battle because the penalty on fly was too harsh...
Now, I have a different solution to suggest: Instead of a toHit reduction, how about a damage reduction? A super hero with that sort of speed/control over his movement would get used to being able to hit with said movement powers. They might not hit as hard as if they concentrated a punch or fire blast, but they should be able to hit their target. Comic book battle involving movement powers are frequent... and I think that aspect has been partially missing from the game (as far as fly goes). Now it's been completely removed.
I think a damage reduction (Maybe 25%?) would be a much better solution than a toHit reduction. It would making people think twice about using a travel power in battle, but it would still make it a viable option, especially when you face other fliers.
Well, yeah, again - all I am really concerned with is that our tactics are going to be severely limited yet again.
Mind you, I don't really have an issue with most of the changes... but the current test changes to SS and SJ... I see that States has said they have been evolving problems (at least with SJ) and that SS has been chagned in the past (removed the defense buff - yeah, I agree with that, it makes it nearly impossible to be hit) I also remember that SS was made non stackable with Granite Armor which really ... made me mad is the polite way, but I adapted.
Now, PvP - the jousting thing... yeah, that's kinda explotive. PvE? Hmmm... really hard to knock flyers out of the air as it is, now they're going to make it 50% harder? Hmmmm...
At any rate I'm probably exagerating, and for the most part I'm pretty happy with the way the Devs are going. These changes however? It really reduces legitimate super heroic type tactics and I just don't see how it is broken or explotive in the PvE environment.
-Esch
"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
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Well, yeah, again - all I am really concerned with is that our tactics are going to be severely limited yet again.
Mind you, I don't really have an issue with most of the changes... but the current test changes to SS and SJ... I see that States has said they have been evolving problems (at least with SJ) and that SS has been chagned in the past (removed the defense buff - yeah, I agree with that, it makes it nearly impossible to be hit) I also remember that SS was made non stackable with Granite Armor which really ... made me mad is the polite way, but I adapted.
Now, PvP - the jousting thing... yeah, that's kinda explotive. PvE? Hmmm... really hard to knock flyers out of the air as it is, now they're going to make it 50% harder? Hmmmm...
At any rate I'm probably exagerating, and for the most part I'm pretty happy with the way the Devs are going. These changes however? It really reduces legitimate super heroic type tactics and I just don't see how it is broken or explotive in the PvE environment.
-Esch
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*Nods* Right. The problem is, our view is limited to what we ourselves play. The blasters only see what is good or bad for them, scrappers only see what is good or bad for them, and so on. The Dev's, however, have to figure out what is best for the entire playerbase.
So, where for us the solution seems simple (Take the -ACC off of fly), for the Dev's it's not (If we take the -ACC off, how will it effect all the AT's compared to just adding a -ACC to SJ and SS?).
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The way I see it, PvP really brought to the forefront the weaknesses in some sets compared to others. The intention wasn't to change things due to PvP, but it was due to PvP that the need to balance came to the forefront.
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i agree
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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With all due respect, sir...you are completely full of it.
*flame on*
For all you dev butt kissers......two words...Hover snipe. Guess what guys, you can hover out of range on many low lvl foes...snipe rinse repeat NO RISK/Lots of reward. PVP 3 slot Hover with Do's....it aint fast but damn its manuverable......Now that Sj and SS have an Acc penalty....go with the Hover to keep out of peoples reach blasters will be the kings again. Good job Statesnerf With your constant effort we "no nothing forum whiners" are still one step ahead of ya!!! Maybe its time you stop beta testing this game and actually release it on the market....oh wait
PS: I know most of these changes will be rolled back....the guys that pay his bills...ie the casual gamer....is gonna be boned by all these changes...cry foul and States will have to wake up from his dreamy nerfherding.....it will be beautiful
They probably won't take the debuff off fly cause that would make hover useless (well, moreso than it already is). I think the debuff might be a good idea for pvp, but SS is to important for some builds in pve to survive that you'd be really limiting a ton of the blasters by doing this. From playing on test I died about twice as often because I don't have that need first bit of stealth or for some other reason.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past...
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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Yeah, SS used to hugely debuff accuracy AND hugely buff defense. But that really would not work in, wait for it...
PvP!
I think a large part of the frustration alot of us are feeling is that before, these were minor issues that a very few would whine about but added alot of flavor to the game. But all of a sudden they become huge issues in PvP.
When SS gave -acc +def, it felt like that was because those two adjustments made sense for a player thats moving at 60+ mph. Now when you come and merely give it -acc, its because of people SS jousting.
By putting such a hugely overreaching nerf into effect, you've affectively nerfed accuracy for a very significant amount of players. Yes. Thats right. You nerfed accuracy.
If I didn't want to use strategies like jousting, I'd just go play World of Warcraft where sitting in the middle of a mob and whacking at them is less of a hassle because you have an auttoattack button. You don't want combat in CoH to degrade to sitting in front of an enemy and whacking them do you?
As for perma clicks, when you think about it they actually take more effort to keep going then running 6 toggles at once. Toggles are perma without hasten or any recharge SOs.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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Did any of those tweaks completely break the tactical use of SS?
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2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
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I'm curious about who asked for the duration of protection to go from 120 seconds to 30 seconds. That's going to be deadly in PvE, particularly to any blasters with the temerity to solo.
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there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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Apparently signifcant PvE issues means that the power can be used in PvE and players enjoy using the power because it makes their character more powerful. I think that we should replace all power sets with 9 choices of brawl. That way the game will be balanced and the devs wont have to worry about players enjoying certain powers.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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What "issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time" ?
What are the PvE problems with Superspeed ?
Your vagueness and amibiguity are remarkable, even for a politician.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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...Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No...
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Allow me to join those who say, I 100% don't believe you. If you were not adding PvP, this change would never happen, and not because you had 'missed' something.
And you stating (earlier) that you can as effectively 'hover-snipe' with these mobile powers shows either extreme hyperbole, or a gross lack of understanding of sniping mechanics. You can pick.
You can ignore your players all you want, but the truth is you are removing fun from the game with this change, and that there is no PvE 'balance' issue involved.
Question for Statesman: Exactly how are Tankers and Scrappers with Super Jump supposed to fight flying enemies? Taunt and then run behind something to draw them close? The epitome of heroic behavior.
And thanks for making my lvl 50 SJ tanker completely useless in a Hami raid. Can't even fight the mitos now.
Flight needs the acc penalty because of the hover/snipe bit. Which of course is still possible with Hover. I can see adding the acc penalty to Super Speed due to its Stealth effect in addition to the in-out combat tactics it allows. I just don't see how Super Jump gives a tactical advantage which warrants a similar penalty. Can someone explain the datamining which led to this conclusion?
Not that it matters. Let's face it, the vast majority of power tweaks are down. The bar never gets raised, only lowered. And frankly, that paradigm is getting very very old, in my opinion.
Lancelot Strong --
Level 50 Inv/SS Tanker on Triumph [Retired]
Tashkent Zen --
Level 25 Mind/Psi Dominator on Virtue
Hector Slade --
Level 34 SS/WP Brute on Virtue
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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I don't doubt your veracity for a second - I believe that you believe that PvE is not THE cause for the change. But if it was the cause that pushed you over the edge on the changes, then it was THE cause, since absent this factor, the changes wouldn't be made. The fact that this latest round of changes did not hit until not only issue 4 is tested, but after 3 or 4 versions are tested and PVP feedback is overwhelmingly the only thing on the boards, is pretty strong evidence that PvP pushed the decision. Intuitively, its illogical for us not to "blame" PvP.
It does not bode well, either, that this is just round one. New powesets and ATs will require more changing for balance, and more rounds of lobbying and whining, then COV will result in yet another round. I would have been much happier if CoV were the only source of PvP. Heroes shouldn't have to be balanced against each other, only against the bad guys. We are supposed to be working together.
But sincere thanks for announcing the respec - its encouraging to those of us who take a year to get to 50 and have had to respec both our our mistakes and the powerset changes!
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...Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No...
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Allow me to join those who say, I 100% don't believe you. If you were not adding PvP, this change would never happen, and not because you had 'missed' something.
And you stating (earlier) that you can as effectively 'hover-snipe' with these mobile powers shows either extreme hyperbole, or a gross lack of understanding of sniping mechanics. You can pick.
You can ignore your players all you want, but the truth is you are removing fun from the game with this change, and that there is no PvE 'balance' issue involved.
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So let's... what?
Jump in a time machine and go back before all of this happened?
See it's been my understanding that what PvP (and by the way, this comes from a person who despises PvP) has done is underlined some inequalities that have already been existent all this time. It provided a new perspective on powers and thier use.
Sorry, but you can't put the apple back on the tree Eve...
I'm seeing the basic contradiction as this:
<ul type="square">[*]Not all ATs are equally effective (for example, for soloing).[*]PvP must be balanced for all ATs[/list]
Am I the only one who sees these two statements as mutually-exclusive? At some point, for the greater glory of PvP, all ATs are going to be nerfed down to the lowest level of effectiveness.
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Liquid, I can understand your points... you're always pretty good at stating them... and I can see where just because no one complained doesn't mean there wasn't a problem, but look: Don't you find it the least bit interesting that now that they are trying to shoehorn PvP in, they are suddenly discovering all these powers that were "already broken"?
It just seems fishy to me... I'm not usually one who complains either, I've had my share of adapting to do, and have pretty much done so without complaint becuase I do believe that there should be some challenge to the game, but I am really getting worried that once someone discovers a new tactic that is perfectly valid, that power is going to be looked at and changed so that the tactic will no longer work.
This is an evolving game, there are, as you say, always new players coming in and new tactics (some of which are explotive perhaps) but are being discovered... I just... I don't know... I really didn't see a good PvE reason for doing this to SS or SJ.
Anyway...
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Does it seem strange? Of course it does. Does that mean thats the reason why it was done? Of course not. The problem is that people are trying to blame all the changes they don't like on PvP, and are (for the most part) claiming that Statesman is lying about why the changes were made without having any kind of proof. In other words, taking what can very well be just a coincidence and trying to use it as damning proof.
And in the end, it's not good for the community, and is rather unfair to Statesman and the other Dev's.
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Well I was just reading over these posts and this one caught my eye because it's a trend I've noticed before amongst those that hold the Dev team to godlike status.
Why do all these individuals assume they are going to tell us the truth? Do they know us? Do they have a long relationship with us that garners trust and honesty? Do they call us by our first names and say "hey, let's do lunch"? No, the Devs and I, or anyone else, have no reason whatsoever to have trust in each other. So therefore, why are they required to tell us the truth?
Now, I'm not saying necissarily that they're lying (although I personally suspect Statesman is quite a bit or rather tweaking the truth to better save his reputation) but I'm just asking what reason to we have to believe they'd never lead us in the opposite direction of the truth? The Devs have(which has been stated many times by Statesman in not so many words) a very clear "vision" of this game and where it is to go. Do you really think that if if the "vision" was getting too far off course and sudden changes were made that any red name would claim it was for their own selfish gains? The upholding of the "vision"?
It's Statesman's job as a developer and as the frontman of this opperation to appease the whining and upset feelings of his subjects (us) do you think he's going to tell us full truths if they're going to upset us and make us whine even more? I know I certainly wouldn't do that. So what's to say that the only reason he's saying there are "significant PvE issues" is to save himself from being called a liar or some such because he's always said PvP would not change the PvE game. You say we have no proof that the PvE game is changing because of PvP and that may be true. A lot of sneaking suspicions considering the timing of the changes and how the changes are in direct regard to MANY whines and complaints about balance in the arena "I can't hit a perma-MoG'd Scrapper and they ALWAYS win the match. I can't use flight to get away from a jousting SJ'er" And I admit those are suspicions BUT suspicions with grounds. But what proof do we have that these changes AREN'T because of PvP and PvP alone or at the least the biggest reason? The only proof we have is what Statesman says.
Well the only proof I have is what I've tested and seen and I think it's fishy...why am I not right? Because he says so?
Again I say, I'm not saying that he HAS to be lying just saying it looks that way and I just don't think there's any real reason to believe what he says when of course everything he says pretty much HAS to be condusive to the game is going as planned and "we've been looking at these issues for a while now." That alone is the biggest cop out ever in my opinion. Citing "we've been looking at this for a while" or "I've always had issues with such and such power" is an easy way to throw off questions by leading the flock to believe "I've been thinking of doing something about this for a while now, it's just the first YOU'VE heard of it"...why is that more often than not the answer we're given? To me, it's just not good enough.
Anyhow, no need for a response, I won't be checking back to see if there is one. I just wanted to throw this out there.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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How do you respond to comments that this hurts Blasters, already generally acknowledged to be very squishy, so much?
SS is often the only thing that's saved my Blaster and helped get out of the way...I know Sprint/Swift just doesn't cut it.
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How do you respond to the fact that countless blasters have been built and survived quite well without ever touching Superspeed?
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Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Statesman:
Thank you for replying, I appreciate it.
I never mentioned the "perma" powers of MoG and Elude, I knew such a change was coming ever since Unstoppable was changed. I feel that Unstoppable is largely useless now and that these other two powers will be as well (situational, yes, but they're designed so that if you can use them safely they're overkill and you'd have survived without them anyway, whereas if you need them they can't be used safely), but ultimately that's all beside the point and I'm not terribly concerned over them.
Since everyone is concentrating on Superspeed and Superleap, let's concentrate on those. You say there were significant PvE issues with these powers, yet have not explained what they were. I am baffled by this. What issues were there with these powers that had not been issues during the past year?
Focusing on Superspeed: there is only one advantage I can think of to using it in combat in PvE, and that is increased survivability. It does nothing to help damage output; in fact, damage per second decreases if Superspeed is used to make long sweeping runs through a group of enemies, letting off a single attack here and there rather than an entire attack chain. Obviously the stealth buff was not the issue because that would have been removed rather than adding an accuracy penalty. So the only thing I can see that was a significant issue was that Superspeed used in combat makes a character too hard to kill. Since the enemies always queue attacks and fire them off as soon as a player is in range, the advantage here is not terribly significant either. However, if that's the reasoning, exactly how hard to kill is too hard? If that's the reasoning, some defensive powers like Instant Healing or Unyielding need some serious consideration, because they make you ridiculously difficult to kill, far more than Superspeed. And that's just speaking for the melee classes; what about the poor blasters who are required to eke every possible sliver of advantage out of every power they have in order to truimph in your average engagement? Does Superspeed suddenly make them too hard to kill? Just how easily should they go down, exactly?
However, more important than all this, in my mind, is the fact that if I want to play a comic-style super-speeder like the Flash (and I do, I have one), I no longer can.
Superleap is even more baffling. I can't think of anyone who actually uses Superleap in combat on a consistent basis. However, when the you're fighting groups of Sky Raiders in Terra Volta, or even if you're inside a mission and there's an enemy posted on the girders at the top of the warehouse or the top of a rack of shelves sniping away (and snipers don't move, remember, so ducking out of line of sight will not make them come to you), and you're a tank without those nifty ranged attacks, it becomes invaluable. Other than those situations I can think of no reason Superleap should even be USED in combat. What possible issue could have cropped up within a year that were so significant this change was needed? I don't even see the real issues in PvP; it lets people with Superleap reach that guy hoversniping them to death. Why is that bad? Where are the significant issues?
I cannot believe the change to the travel powers was made due to anything other than PvP considerations. If there was some clearly disproportionate Everyone knew how they worked in PvE, everyone was happy with how they worked in PvE, nobody was complaining, and people still create heroes with Fly and Teleport. Such a state of affairs has existed for a year. Where are the significant issues? Despite what you've said, the fact remains that there have been many more changes of greater significance to many more powers after the creation of the arena than before the creation of the arena, and the logical conclusion is that these significant issues have come to light because of their use in PvP, not because of their year-long previous use as PvE-only powers. From what I can see of the reaction to this latest wave of changes, this is not making the player base happy.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Bought Guild Wars today.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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I am interested in knowing what aspect of SS and SJ is so overwhelming off-kilter in PvE that they need to be so curtailed?
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It wasn't fair.
Nerfing 2 powers, established for a year is easier then buffing one power (removing -acc from fly) for balance.
Check the "patch explation" by statesman.
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I am still a little worried that people arent getting the point - this game is suppose to be a challenge - it was never ment to be - or should it ever be Easy - that really is the bottom line -
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Wow, all this time I thought the point of this game was to be fun. If a challenge is your idea of fun, go invincible, take fly, and stay away from FoTM builds.
Why change the PvE game? What is one good reason for making this change to PvE?
BTW, I'm not whining here. I'll continue playing most likely regardless, but claiming that this change is for any reason other than PvP balance is just insulting.
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o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap. PvP/PvE
There was an inherent unfairness with the travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.
Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.
Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful –recharge).
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Huh?
You do realize that Super Speed "jousting" lessened risk, it did not nearly negate it. Fly-Snipe completley negated risk and was fast (as opposed to hover-snipe, which also completley negates risk, but is slow). IMO, it should be ok to use tactics which lower risk. IME (I only have 2 super speed toons, one of which took it at level 14 and is now level 24, the other took it at lvl 35 and is now 41) super speed never dropped the risk dramatically (except when used to pull, but I don't want to believe you are suggesting that pulling is a tactic you will be attempting to eliminate, as most people I run with look at me like I am a loon when I pull this way instead of the more common methods).
Super Speed and Super Jump jousting are so innefficient it is a joke. Might as well remove xp for mobs that are -2 levels to you, because killing a bunch of -2s gives more reward for less risk over the same period of time than jousting challenging mobs.
On January 12th of this year Geko posted this:
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No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?
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The only inherent unfairness between SS, SJ, TP, and Fly is that 3 of them allow you to travel quickly and one does not. IMO, you should make fly as fast as the other travel powers, but since you guys can only think downwards why wouldn't you make the other travel powers as slow as fly to "balance the inequity". Only Fly completley negates the risk of an encounter (and then only with blasters and defenders), which is why only Fly had the -ACC penalty for so long.
I also must wonder what changed between now and 3 months ago. Then Fly was beloved and you felt the other powers needed advantages in order to make people take them ; Now you think there is an inherent unfairness that makes Fly weaker, and for some baffling reason you think it has to do with Fly's Acc penalty instead of how butt slow it is?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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I'm sorry Jack but comments like these do little or nothing to convince me these changes are based on anything other than PvP considerations.
Give us some real data to help us understand what if any real PvE issues these changes are based upon and then maybe we'll understand but so far it's been more a case of "Statesman's opinion" and "We feel that" commentary which tend to weaken the explanation considerably and as none of these items were "issues" before people started complaining about them in PvP...
...Well you begin to see the problem now, don't you?
The way I see it, PvP really brought to the forefront the weaknesses in some sets compared to others. The intention wasn't to change things due to PvP, but it was due to PvP that the need to balance came to the forefront.