PVP should NOT affect PVE
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2005-04-27 22:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So let's... what?
Jump in a time machine and go back before all of this happened?
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Fine by me.
As far as I am concerned they should scrap the whole PvP concept all together and go back to spending the manhours improving the "real" game.
Or at the very least alter powers only on the Arena Server for PvP and leave the rest of the game as it was before the blasted nuisance went active on Test.
Nothing Jack has said or done over the past two weeks has convinced me that the changes on Test make the PvE game "Better" or "More fun". I've tested my characters there and my reaction to 95% of these changes has been to basically walk away from the game and go find something else to do.
At this point the changes appear to be overwhelmingly based upon PvP considerations and are contributing to a spiraling loss of play value in the game for myself and everyone I know who plays.
So long as there is any level of character-power customizing allowable in the Game engine there is no way they will ever make all the ATs equal in PvP.
Continuing to attempt to weaken all of the powersets until they are "equal" will not only make the game as fun as Rock/Paper/Scissors but will cause it to not see a 2nd anniversary at this rate.
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So let's... what?
Jump in a time machine and go back before all of this happened?
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Fine by me.
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Fine, fair enough...
...and also not going to happen. So what should we do that's actually in the realm of feasibility here?
I despise PvP, think it's horribly unbalanced, and could frankly do without it, but, as I said, once you know a thing you can't un-know it. So let's try to make the best out of this, shall we?
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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So does this mean permahasten is due for the next change?
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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Statesman, I applaud the way you have handled many of the controversial changes of late, but that is the most vague & evasive answer I've ever seen you give. You didn't address the reason for the changes, nor even identify the problems that have been "evolving." Please, enlighten us.
I agree. In all honesty there should be no changing anything whatsoever for PVP. All the archtypes are different. You can not change them to suit a balanced PVP. If I am a healer, I will not PVP alone cause I am not a tank. I understand this. Anyone who would do anything like this is asking to get beat in the arena. What makes the game work is the differences in types of heroes, everyone has differnet bulds and different abilities. There is no reason to equal it all out when it is not meant to be. If you go in to PVP as a blaster and complain about geting beat, go in with a team like a mission. Don't freak out. I just do not like where this whole balance issue is going.
Statesman,
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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Just because a power has been modified in the past does not imply that power is fair game for any change of any kind in future.
From another thread:
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There was an inherent unfairness with the travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.
Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.
Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful –recharge).
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I see that here you are trying to balance an inequity that has existed for a long time, and that apparently it has little to do with PvP, despite the timing. However, you still have not really answered the question. The real question is, why were Super Speed and Super Jump burdened with a 50% acc penalty for this difference between the powers? Why was flight not modified to drop the accuracy penalty?
People can still use Flight + Hover at no more risk than Flight without an acc penalty would be. Foes can shoot back no better or worse either way, and every foe has some ranged attack. Please explain how the Acc penalty on Flight is not almost entirely circumvented merely by briefly switching to hover. How will lifting the Acc penalty from fly really affect that?
If there was some fear that removing the penalty from Fly made Hover pointless, then consider that an alternate solution would be to make hover as valuable as the other entry powers, and dropping the penalty on Fly would be the better choice. I'm sure if you called for ideas you'd get many good suggestions.
Making hover desirable by smashing the other travel powers does not make sense to me. A more in depth explanation is called for.
Also I want to mention that the lack of vertical movement on Super Speed more than makes up for its Stealth ability. I would also like to say that if a 5th Speed pool power were offered that worked just like Super Speed but had a level requirement of 20, I'd take it. I just like the speed. It makes the game fun. It saves my allies. It feels heroic. I would argue that Flight deserves this same fun factor.
Speaking of fun factor ... I leave Super Speed on at all times for the fun. I tried playing several heroes remembering to turn off super speed before every single action I took. I also turned the darned power on each time I needed to zip 15 feet away for some tactical reason or adrenaline-soaked rescue action. It was tedious. I cannot ever imagine that the developers would remove the fun factor from almost every character I have (I'm a speed junkie) and doubtless from many other players as well ... unless there were some other reason.
Some other catalyst.
I hope you will offer more explanation.
Thanks for all the work,
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
...
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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this has been so vexing because ANY change that's made can be said to be a PvE issue too. So far all we've got is suppression and toggle dropping for the promised "alternate rules" for PvP.
the superspeed/sj change seems to have very little merit in pve, but has a lot of merit in pvp. Yet we get a global change. Superspeed's combat effectiveness was THE balancing factor considering that you need something else to get around in skyway city, faultline, terra volta, the shadow shard and countless other speed-unfriendly areas.
What issue has slowly evolved with respect to superjump in pve? melee types have been using superjump in pve to (inefficiently) tackle flying mobs forever. in what way has that become overpowered?
If jousting is now a problem please fix that at its source. Otherwise the joust jockeys will simply move on to a slotted up sprint, combat jump or swift, and the parties uninterested in PvP will be left holding the bag.
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So let's... what?
Jump in a time machine and go back before all of this happened?
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Fine by me.
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Fine, fair enough...
...and also not going to happen. So what should we do that's actually in the realm of feasibility here?
I despise PvP, think it's horribly unbalanced, and could frankly do without it, but, as I said, once you know a thing you can't un-know it. So let's try to make the best out of this, shall we?
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Neither of your post's made a lot of sense, but I will guess that you are saying that, since PvP *will* be implemented, and they Devs feel that they *must* balance it, we are stuck with PvE changes?
If that was your point (and if not, please actually make one) then the answer is very simple, change powers for PvP and *not* for PvE.
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*Nods* Right. The problem is, our view is limited to what we ourselves play. The blasters only see what is good or bad for them, scrappers only see what is good or bad for them, and so on. The Dev's, however, have to figure out what is best for the entire playerbase.
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And yet these very same devs cannot recognize the difference in a +7 minion and a +0 with extra hit points in a demo video that they filmed. Based on that stellar display of their omniscient point of view, do you actually think they have more knowledge of the game than their player base? In case it's not obvious, I don't.
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So, where for us the solution seems simple (Take the -ACC off of fly), for the Dev's it's not (If we take the -ACC off, how will it effect all the AT's compared to just adding a -ACC to SJ and SS?).
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You're right. Removing the debuff from fly would make fliers happy and might let a few people spec out of hover and take AS instead. What a travesty that would be. No, far better to institude yet another nerf and piss off part of the player base again.
Sure, the devs can't please all the people all the time, but they could flippin try.
-Junction Boy
Sometimes I feel like I'm stranded on an island populated only by myself and a bunch of viscious, retarded monkeys. Don't laugh... you're one of the viscious, retarded monkeys.
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And yet these very same devs cannot recognize the difference in a +7 minion and a +0 with extra hit points in a demo video that they filmed.
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Good god, you simply won't let that go. YOu can sit up on your high horse about that all you want, but I'll bet you anything that there's a good chance you might have missed it in their place as well. Mistakes happen. They were testing an extreme situation that is not something that would normally happen in live play. Furthermore, it was survivability that was the focus of the test, not killing ability. Thus, the focus was on survival. The problem with the damage being dealt was overlooked. Mistakes happen. Get on with your life or go down there, demand a job, and prove that you can do it better. I'd be glad to see your boss produce a statement that you've never made a dumb mistake before on your job...
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You're right. Removing the debuff from fly would make fliers happy and might let a few people spec out of hover and take AS instead.
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You forgot about near perfectly safe hover-sniping. Big alpha, fly out of range before any serious retaliation, wait for the alpha to recharge, zoom back in and repeat. I realize now the only reason full speed flight is acceptable on Kheld Nova is that they don't have any sort of snipe-level damage attack...
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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you added the 50% debuff because of kiting in pvp..you're fault for not having these penalties in place from the beginning just like fly. This clearly isn't an issue in pve but is in pvp.
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2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
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don't believe you. there is a slant on all these power changes towards balancing the arena which ofc you must achieve to avoid future problems with CoV. In any case I am actually pro-pvp but not happy with the CoF nerf which comes directly from pvp datamining yet again.
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3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
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Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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you just took the "super" out of hero and made this game a lot less fun. you want a fix to your kiting problem? lift the debuff penalties on all travel powers and instead add a range check. that way we can have the outrageously glorious ground and air battles that make this game fun.
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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You forget a BIG Point !
We Are Heros the last patches ( nerfs ), was all for PvP
Perma powers damnit SR is hard to play in PvE you "change" the power that is now useless.
Regen was to Strong haha you test it solo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Play a 8 man TF or Respec you see what your changes do,
YOU destroy one of the best parts in this Game "the Teamplay".
I can solo perfect and die 5-10 or more times in a TF ?
You ever see "The Flash" (HERO) miss the bad guys when he use his superspeed ?
Dev made the Game Dev (PvP) destroy the Game.
sry for my bad english
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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Ha ha ha!
You tweaked SS in the first couple of months after the game was launched. No travel power has been tweaked since. EVERY statement about the travel powers from a Red Name in the last 8-10 months has said they were satisfied that the travel powers were balanced. Does this sound like an issue evolving over time?
I really want to believe that I'm not being lied to, but this just makes no sense. I can't even imagine what the "issue" with Super Jump that has been evolving could be. Is it the odd time that one needs to Super Jump to hit a flying foe? Is that the issue? Let's examine how it's just been "solved":
Flight - I fly up, switch to Hover, proceed to smack the tar out of flying foe.
Leaping - I jump up with Super Jump, miss repeatedly, switch to Combat Jumping, and now can't jump high enough to hit him either.
Wow, you're right ... issue solved. Balance is achieved. Bravo.
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Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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This is just playing games with us. When you say, no changes will be made to powers in PVE due to PVP, you are implying that changes that are motivated by PVP will stay there.
What appears to have happened is that PVP required a change to the travel powers. Then the question arises, should this be a PVP only change. Well, we can now come up with a reason to change it in PVE too, so let's change it in both.
This looks like a case where THE reason for the change is PVP, but you're saying it's not the only reason that CAN be offered, so it isn't the ONLY reason. That's not what was implied by your original promise ... the original promise suggested that the only time that a PVE change would happen is when PVE was the main motivation. It's not that I think you're lying, but I think you're splitting hairs with us in a manner that isn't totally above board.
Awww...All these changes are confusing me so much. Now i just fear that i wont be able to play with my toons like i used to a few months ago . Am i losing faith in the game ? I dont know but its getting very hard to always rethink my toons and adapt to all these nerfs/modifications and everytime i feel that my ATs are losing something cool . In my own opinion , i keep thinking that Issue 2 was the golden age of this game . It was a great issue because there was about only good news for most players ( capes , badges , new zone , respec , etc .. ) . Last year , i was impatiently waiting the new issue . It all changed with Issue 3 ... when they start to make major changes to a game i thought was already entertaining and fun enough as is . Even if they finally decided to roll back some changes like the one about the Bosses , i still felt that the game was changing too fast for myself ... For me these days , it looks like a surprise bag and while im just starting to adapt to a change , theres already another one coming out that changes everything again ... I try to read alot the forums to learn what i can about the game but it gets tiring ... One day , people say that you need to slot a power that way , a month after they say its not good anymore and now you should slot it that way or even better respec it and take that other power instead ... I always have the feeling im doing something wrong and since i havent access to unlimited respecs on live , im always worried . I know its just a game but still , id like for once to be able to play with a toon i like without being worried of the incoming next issue . Finally i used to be impatient to see new content but since Issue 3 , new content for me is something to be worried about because it means that things i got to like in the game could get nerfed/changed/modified/removed etc ... And that i dont like .
My 2 cents in the pot for what matters
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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You can say that (and I'm not saying you're lying), but how do we know you're telling the truth for sure? Maybe you should tell us what you're looking at 'internally' before you make any changes on test. You don't have to tell us exactly what you're proposing to change, but mention in general what 'problems' you're seeing in the PvE game.
As for the SS/SJ changes, I don't see why you can't just increase the endurance usage of those powers. I know before the change to Quantum Flight I tried turning on and off Flight and Quantum Flight in succession, and though neither power was on for more than half a second, my end was being drained like crazy. I say increase the overall end/second and add a large end cost when activating/deactivating these powers.
/sign
the devs are really shooting themselves in the foot here.
Pew... you dissapoint me Stateman. 
Be a man and admit that SS/SJ was a problem in PvP and it was to hard to change it for only PvP, hence it affects both PvP and PvE.
Theese vauge and transparent reasons you give only fuels the flames. Do you think we are 5-year olds that will believe anything you say? Please do not treat us like morons!
Do you not see that it is not the actual change to SS/SJ that is upseting your players, instead it is that the game is beeing balanced for PvP. We are upset because you try to change a really great game to achive something impossible (balance in PvP).
I said it before and I say it again:
Any change to PvE because of PvP balance is a development failure.
Please be a man and admit your failures!
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Exactly, I'm being made to feel like I've been cheating, or getting over on game mechanics all this time. Well why stop with accuracy nerfs, Lets make superjump match real world physics completely, no more 90 degree turns to the right or left once Im airborne. Make my superspeeder skid 50 feet every time he stops. No, wait thats probably coming for the 2 year anniversary.
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I'm not sure how it could be implimented without being so annoying that it wouldn't be worth it, but skidding would be a pretty cool looking effect (like if you actually left skid-marks).
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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What about brawl? I don't recall Brawl detoggling anyone in PvE.........
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
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What are the "issues"? Why not remove the stealth component from SS in the arena? Maybe up the end cost of SJ in the arena. And for goodness' sake, remove the acc penalty in fly, or lower its end cost. The way things have panned out show what people WANT, which is all that matters. Your and the devs wants should be secondary to your customers; you are here to provide US with an entertainment outlet - not see you world brought to life. Maybe we, the players, want to be able to defeat scores of enemies easily. Why not make ahard mode where villains hit harder, or powers work less effectively, if that's what you want - then see which people opt for. Let's run a poll to see what changes the players want; afterall, those are the people the changes will affect. Have any of the devs even played a character all the way through to 50? I'd like to team with a dev and see how they think the game should be played. It's nice to know that we're paying you folks to tell us how to play.
I really think it would be helpful if instead of saying "there were PvE concerns this change is addressing" that Statesman could summarize what those concerns were. Also if they could acknowledge the issues people have with the change and address how they expect them to be solved?
Given that he went as far as to list the results from the test on scrapper secondaries, I'd also like to see the conclusions drawn from that test and how it altered the decisions as to what changes to make.
And beyond that, a full summary of analysis done on each problem before a change is scheduled to be made. I suspect that there'd be some good suggestions from players as to useful fixes for each thing. If the problem is tantamount to an exploit, this might be a bad idea, but if it's merely an issue with #bad guys killable solo by build A, that would be reasonable to discuss.
It's also possible that they've discovered some SS/SJ exploits that need fixing with the Accuracy debuff and don't wish to tell everyone so that unscrupulous readers might use it before the change goes live. I truly hope this is not the case because I really like leaving superspeed on so I can keep up with my groups!
(could the devs consider please making speed boost's default run speed buff less, or making sprint faster? it's just too darn hard for the kineticist to keep up!)
I agree. Don't you see, Statesman, that your 1-liners only anger the forum-goers? I think we deserve a bit more. If you're going to respond, respond; don't give us these little quips...
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2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
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Could you please, PLEASE elaborate on this? I don't know of anyone who was saying "Two minutes is too long for me to be safe from being mezzed while I'm trying to solo...could you please make it just 30 seconds? kthanks."
Statesman mentions the issues in this Test Server thread.
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
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These are true statements but it comes across that all of these changes are happening in a rush and the primary goal is to provide equal the footing in PvP. Whether that is the case or not, it is the perception. And you're absolutely right, these are primarily PvE issues but nothing was mentioned to this extreme until complaints and concerns were raised from PvP.
Another point to ponder... I have NEVER seen these many "official this or that changing" threads occuring before... Again, happenstance? Not sure.
But as other more experienced posters have mentioned, we all should give the benefit of the doubt because States has shot straight in the past and this shouldn't be any different.