PVP should NOT affect PVE
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2005-04-27 22:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Do you want to know why pvp will effect COH? It's called COV.
I'd just like to point out in my original post, I used the word "changes", not the word "nerf", at least not till the end where I tried to inject a little Star Wars related humor with the "nerf-herding" crack.
The reason the explosion happened is because players are getting sick of the changes. All changes, nerfs or not. There is no stability and everyone has to keep re-evaluating their builds every time a patch is released. It becomes tiring and frustrating when the things you knew about how your powers worked are in constant flux.
Also, it's much better to fix a problem by adding something rather than taking something away. So superjump and superspeed were too good compare to fly (I don't think that was the reason for the change -- notice Teleport doesn't come into the discussion at all -- but for the sake of argument...)? Then rather than take something away from the player for using them instead of fly, give the player something if they use fly. Remove the accuracy penalty on Fly, and the powers are balanced again.
At this point, though, giving or taking doesn't matter. The players are tired of changes and just want the powers to be left alone.
As for PvP not being the reason behind the PvE changes. Be honest. Look at the huge list of changes in I4. It's bigger than any list of changes previously for any patch or previous issue. Do you really, honestly think that all those changes would have been made if the Arena had not?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for the citation, SurgeCharge. That's what I was looking for:
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Theres also the issue of PvP. Wed like to avoid touching powers as much as possible because of PvP imbalances. This is mainly because a good many people dont PvP and dont plan to; wed like to avoid affecting their game experience. Sometimes, however, there it is inevitable because theres not another way to get balance.
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{emphasis mine} I interpret this as saying that the PvE experience for players, regardless of whether or not they participate in PvP, will change because there's a PvP imbalance... and not necessarily a PvE imbalance. I know very, very little about perma 'Moment' of Glory or, indeed, perma-anything... but I'm very skeptical about the need for Super Jump changes in PvE... among other changes.
Anyhow, I appreciate the link... even if it isn't what I wanted to hear.
EDIT: SablePhoenix wrote: "At this point, though, giving or taking doesn't matter. The players are tired of changes and just want the powers to be left alone. " I am not one of those players. If a power doesn't work well in the game, either because it's too weak or too strong, I definitely want the power changed. What I don't want is a power changed in PvE when it works just fine in PvE... because it doesn't work well in PvP. (Or vice versa, for that matter.)
I don't understand how the devs can justify nerfing SS/SJ in the PvE game. For the arena, nerf the crap out of whatever you want, it concerns me very little. But why mess with us non PvPers? C'mon, SS/SJ were overpowered? You shouldn't attack while invisible? Aren't they changing superior invis so we can attack with it on?
I curse this frelling arena, I hate PvP and i hate how it has poisoned the game.
Well, we had a good run, a year of pretty darn good MMO. Like all things MMO, it goes the way of the PvP "balance" fiasco.
<plays Taps sadly>
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A couple of additional points:
1) Group Invisibility allows one to attack with complete invisibilty.
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You forgot to add that a listed change for Improved Invisibility is that they're specifically changing it to allow you to attack while it's on. It's clearly NOT the intent that you shouldn't be able to attack while fully invisible.
While I'm not personally bothered by the SS/SJ changes as a practical matter, I do want to reiterate the underlying sentiment of the original poster.
Changing the PvE game to suit PvP balance is a sure-fire way to piss off those customers who have zero interest in PvP -- which, I might add, is a not inconsequential portion of the playerbase. PvP is popular, sure, but I suspect a lot of players came to this game because of what it didn't have: loot, an economy, crafting, and PvP.
In general, PvE seems to be functioning well. Some issues crop up from time to time, but on the whole, the experience is quite enjoyable and seems to be working "as intended." When changes are made for PvP balancing reasons, the devs have GOT to understand that the players who aren't at all interested in PvP are going to be angry, even if it's a minor change. I know I came here from SWG, a game that was a constant merry-go-round of nerfing and "balancing", often for the sake of PvP, but which always affected PvE as well.
In general, my suggestion is as follows:
PvE is your baseline. It's the established style of play for a year now. PvP is the "new" style of play. It's fine to change PvE when something is broken with PvE, but when something is NOT broken with PvE, and needs changing in PvP, leave the change in PvP-land. Do not, if at all possible, let that change sneak over to PvE.
Two changes I've heard of thus far -- the SS/SJ change and the fear change -- are relatively minor. They do not, at least from what I can tell, cause a drastic change in the way the PvE experience is going to play out. But pay very close attention to what has happened here. There seems to be a good portion of the playerbase, at least in terms of the boards, that feels betrayed here. These are the players who believed that PvE and PvP would generally remain separate and that, whatever lunacy came with PvP, it would stay the hell away from their PvE gaming. I STRONGLY urge the devs to try to live up to these players' expectations because to do otherwise invites disillusionment and resentment. It leads to infighting among the playerbase, anger at the devs, and a general air of "They lied to us."
Learn, if you will, from SOE's mistakes. This time around, the changes have been minor. As a result, this storm will likely blow over and things will return to being mostly calm. But take notice of how bad things got over even this minor change and think long and hard about whether you want to cross such a minefield again with bigger changes to PvE that are inspired mostly by PvP.
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so the changes to unstoppable in issue 3 were because of pvp?
pvp is the new thing to blame, since pvp is being tested now every change is because of pvp.
ss and sj get a 50% accuracy debuff, just like flight has had. hell flight still isnt up to par with its speed and end cost.
moment of glory and elude get timer increased, just like unstoppable. seems consistant to me
people are always gonna find a reason to gripe i guess, wether it is warranted or not
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the difference between Fly, SS, and SJ is that people took Fly knowing that this was the case. People took SS, and SJ, knowing this was not the case. If they had all been the same all along people might have made other choices. Thus people screaming for a respec.
Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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How do you respond to comments that this hurts Blasters, already generally acknowledged to be very squishy, so much?
SS is often the only thing that's saved my Blaster and helped get out of the way...I know Sprint/Swift just doesn't cut it.
@JohnP - Victory
Phew. That definitely makes me feel better, Statesman.
However, could you elaborate on what the significant PvE issues are with Super Jump and Super Speed? I don't know much about Super Speed, but I'm mystified by the Super Jump changes.
It affects all the ATs and there's nothing saying this is going to be the last change to anything. Blasters may end up netting a gain. We won't know until things flush through the system.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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I am interested in knowing what aspect of SS and SJ is so overwhelming off-kilter in PvE that they need to be so curtailed?
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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States, what about my nullified controller?
As an earth I feel completely useless as my holds can't touch anything, and blasters hold me FAR easier.
This suppression system, which may be needed for pet-hold spamming controllers, really hurts some of us.
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We were promised PVP would not affect PVE, back when PVP was announced.
We were promised this.
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No. We were promised that no change to a power in PvE would be made solely due to PvP considerations. Admittedly, this promise is no less likely to be broken than what you claim the promise was, but you are misstating Statesman's declaration.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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I am interested in knowing what aspect of SS and SJ is so overwhelming off-kilter in PvE that they need to be so curtailed?
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It wasn't fair.
Nerfing 2 powers, established for a year is easier then buffing one power (removing -acc from fly) for balance.
Check the "patch explation" by statesman.
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We were promised PVP would not affect PVE, back when PVP was announced.
We were promised this.
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No. We were promised that no change to a power in PvE would be made solely due to PvP considerations.
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And what exactly is the big honkin' problem with SS and SJ in PvE that warrants a nerf?
These changes are being made because powers were too powerful or weak in both PvP, not just PvE. The problem is that AI mobs don't complain when they are facing unanswerable powers or combinations of powers, but players do and PvP gave them the chance to be on the receiving end of some of these things. Thus their strength was brought to light and changes were made.
They were not changed because of PvP, they were just discovered in PvP.
Scorus
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And what exactly is the big honkin' problem with SS and SJ in PvE that warrants a nerf?
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I keep shooting off my text-mouth without reading: Statesman addresses the issues here.
I still don't see it with Super Jump... but I'll hop to that thread to babble about it.
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No. We were promised that no change to a power in PvE would be made solely due to PvP considerations.
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And what exactly is the big honkin' problem with SS and SJ in PvE that warrants a nerf?
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And that is the burning question of the moment, it seems. For myself, I can't see any reason why the ACC penalty would be appropriate in PvE.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
To quote Statesman's explanation in that Training Room forum post:
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o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap. PvP/PvE
There was an inherent unfairness with the travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.
Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.
Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful recharge).
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Play all the silly word games you want but the fact is all these sweeping changes and the further analysis of damn near the whole game IS BECAUSE OF THE INTRODUCTION OF PVP.
Maybe you think you can swing the bat at everything and call issue 4 a success when all the CS rejects have somewhere to congregate but for me each issue has messed with at least one of my characters.
Can you have one issue where you add cool and interesting stuff without causing me to rebuild one of my characters. Please?
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They were not changed because of PvP, they were just discovered in PvP.
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We all knew Fly had the debuff to acc, I was one who took it knowing that going in because it fit my Hero.
SS and SJ, we all knew since day one (ok maybe week one) that it did not penalize you.
It did not take PVP to see this, we already knew...they just waited until now to *adjust* it.
So I guess you could say the *adjustment/fix/nerf* is a by product due to PvP.
"All that crap is grey to me ... no xp" -- Positron
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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Saying this doesn't really justify the harm these changes do; I think the cure is worse than the disease. Could you lay out the details of what was wrong that you are willing to affect a major player mechanism in this way?
Not knowing all of the details, my guess is that you're trying to fix (eliminate) 'jousting'. Instead of a real solution though (where you detect if the hero is still in the vicinity of the target when the power goes off), you've put in a patch that makes the situation impossible. If my guess is accurate, my advice would be to roll your changes back, and fix a technical problem with a real solution, rather than with a patch that affects so many players in a bad way.
In my opinion, btw, bringing SJ/SS down to the same broken level as flight is not an action to endear you to your subscribers.
If you have ever had fly as a power then you know that it has a -acc while in use. SS and SJ as far as I can tell have no such disadavantage so this -acc to SS and SJ would pretty much make it a little more even. I guess.
I made my point about the travel powers here:
Thoughts on travel powers
Ever since the game launched, the official line on travel powers from the Devs has been that they were happy with the way they were balanced. If this isn't a change totally motivated by PVP, and I fail to see the motivation.
A couple of additional points:
1) Group Invisibility allows one to attack with complete invisibilty.
2) If this were indeed the motivation, it seems the solution would be to have all Stealth powers not stack with each other.
3) I'd like the person who asserted that Super Jump allows you to attack with complete immunity to explain how they figure that works.