PVP should NOT affect PVE
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2005-04-27 22:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Let me ask you a question and please give a honest reply:
Do you really think the change to SS/SJ would have happen if there was no PvP in issue 4?
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Dunno what the person you're asking will say about this, but I'll take a pop at the question. Here I go:
Yes.
Particularly in SS' case, the power was too good compared to other travel powers, the inherent aggro management built into the power to make it usable running down city streets was obviously not intended as a shortcut for getting around taking Stealth. Testing in the Arena mostly likely helped bring this issue to the Dev's attention, but the problem was already there pre-Arena and would have been changed eventually with or without Arena testing. You do see there is a difference in powers changed *for* PvP and powers changed *as a result* of high-visibility PvP testing, right?
IMO, anyone who *didn't* see this coming are the ones suffering a little self-delusion. Maybe they thought that certain powers were sacred calves never to be touched, looks like the Devs disagree. Now that we see that the Holy SS is indeed touchable, next on the tweak list - Hasten, that 70% is going way down.
I do think these alterations are large enough now that we might see a free respec now, tho.
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Good job fanboi. Keep it up. The point is not that SS is overpower or in some other way broken. The point is that they let folks spend a year building characters with it only to take it away when it started affecting stats in the arena. I can only play by the rules as they exist. Thats not my fault its theirs.
Bottom line, these devs are starting to feel untouchable because they have been netting 2+ mill a month in fees. They are beginning to play with my time invested in this game like its a toy. That is where the line gets drawn with me.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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Making up a lame excuse to change it in PvE does not constitute keeping good on your promise.
Some of us have been here since beta and remember the first change to to superspeed.
It had -Acc and +Def back then in case you've intentionally filed it away under things never to remember.
It blew the lower part of an animals extremities at that point because it meant that making a superfast hero was just a pipedream. All the components were there, but someone was hit over the head with a mallet and designed it badly.
Then SS was changed to what it was up until now. Stealth component with no -acc and no +def so you could have an SSing hero.
Now you're changing it back to being really crappy. Glad to you guys have pulled the guy who was wacked in the head with the mallet many many months ago back out of mothballs so he can once again begin implementing things to ruin this relatively decent game.
Superspeed is just one example of many. All these horrible changes that are being made make me happy that I started the game with something that was extremely difficult to play and moved on to something that was broken and even more difficult to play. It's a game. Games are supposed to be fun. If we didn't want to have fun there are many other cheaper MMOs out there to bang our heads against the wall over. Or perhaps we can all watch paint dry.
Balance may be important, but its not important enough to ruin the reason for the game being there in the first place. To have fun. If you can't change a power in PvE and not change it in PvP then just say it. You actually came out and said, "Hey. We screwed up." in the regen changes thread and people appreciated it. More likely than not they're willing to let you back out of this PvP snafu as well, but if you continue just flat out lying to them they'll eventually just leave.
PvP is turning out to be a huge waste of resources, both in manpower and in alienating your customer base.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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How can we believe that when:
1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
etc.
The evidence just doesn't make your statements appear true.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Let me get this right, you're peeved because they weren't gifted with precognition and didn't see the need for these changes twelve months ago?
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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To quote a previous poster:
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However, could you elaborate on what the significant PvE issues are with Super Jump and Super Speed?
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I honestly just don't see them. I kinda feel like Super Speed is the only thing that made playing my blasters tolerable. I figured that the lack of vertical travel was enough of a penalty.
Some SS unfriendly zones for example:
Faultline (the faults)
Terra Volta (big walls and no road to the reactor door)
Eden (the woods in the center)
Creys Folly (near the rikti crash site)
Rikti Crash Site (near the entrance in particular)
Skyway City (the windy roadways and skyways)
Perez Park (the walls and woods)
Shadow Shard (falling is bad)
In general, Super Speeders have to take a circuitous route to get around most zones. Why penalize them more?
I really don't see how the superjump change will hurt anyone since most players just switch to combat jumping when in battle because of the extra defense and lower end cost. That said, I still don't see any reason to add the huge debuff to it.
However, super speed is the combat power that many blasters rely on. Please explain how it was too powerful in PvE? I guess I have heard a few flyers complain about the acc debuff on fly but most of them switch it off because it is to expensive to run anyways.
What is the goal for travel powers? If they are meant to be a safe way to get around only then put in a 100% ACC debuff and a 50% defense BUFF and add stealth (or reduced aggro) to all of them. Please EXPLAIN these "signifcant PvE issues" to us. If the powers were not equal then how about a buff to the fly and teleport. I suspect that 99% of players would prefer that. I know teleporters will.
-AZ
Count me in too. I dont give a damn about arena....leave it to the 12 yr olds that think they are "teh uber 1337" cuz they "pwnz h00ct 0n Phonics". Is there any changes to PvP that hasnt affected PvE? There are WAAAAAYYYYY TOO MANY NERFS because of Pvp Affecting PvE. Are some reasonable? Maybe fear. Are your code monkies that incompetent that you cant get the game to recognize "Arena" and "PvE"? Maybe its time you hire a new staff.....you know, one that will cut the mustard...instead of sheltering them like youre that fool manager on dilbert....
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If you have ever had fly as a power then you know that it has a -acc while in use. SS and SJ as far as I can tell have no such disadavantage so this -acc to SS and SJ would pretty much make it a little more even. I guess.
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I have a dear friend, blind from birth. She has never suggested everyone else's eyes be gouged out to make things a little more even, though she wouldn't mind being able to see.
If making things "even" was the developers' intent, they chose the wrong approach.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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And what exactly is the big honkin' problem with SS and SJ in PvE that warrants a nerf?
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I keep shooting off my text-mouth without reading: Statesman addresses the issues here.
I still don't see it with Super Jump... but I'll hop to that thread to babble about it.
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Let's look at what Statesman said shall we?
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o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap. PvP/PvE
There was an inherent unfairness with the travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.
Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat...
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Hmmm, in PVP this could be problem if the opponent could not queue-up a power, but it should result in the same one-for-one attack trade as normal combat.
In PvE this is never a problem because the AI *always* knows/remembers to queue an attack. In addition, most PCs can normally fire attacks at mobs at a greater than one-to-one rate; by using this tactic, you actually reduce your attack rate to being equal to that of the NPC. In addition, all NPCs in a group will 'remember' to prep an attack, so you will actually be hitting one enemy once, while you get hit multiple times.
So there is no PvE problem, and if Jack really thinks this is 'no risk' fighting, he really needs to take some time off from the office and try playing the game to see that what hundreds (if not thousands) of his customers are telling him, is the truth.
But he won't, and the player base base will be dismissed as 'whiners'.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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i dont believe a word of this, sorry. If it was true, you should have made these PvE changes before PvP went to test. you nerfed the perma powers soley because of the effitiveness in PvP... i dont recall anyone saying anything about Elude, MoG, and LF being "not as intended" before PvP... do you?
Well isn't it so damn convenient then that all of these changes are occuring now that PvP is in heavy testing??? I mean come on, Statesman's promise is the best example of doubletalk I've seen since I read "1984". No changes will be made based solely on PvE considerations... indeed... so all they have to do is change whatever the heck they want and CLAIM there were signifigant PvE issues too... even if that isn't the case.
Come on guys... just hurry up and finish making EVERY DAMN HERO exactly the SAME. Give everyone Brawl, Sprint, Rest, and REMOVE all other powers... it's really the only way your going to acheive "Balance" after all... 
I am getting so SICK of adapting to marginally needed changes... "Gosh, we're seeing a lot of blasters jousting in the Arena, we'd better nerf SS and SJ"... oh, when we TELL them this, we'll say "Well, we discovered signifigant PvE issues with these powers too..." OH REALLY? Nearly a YEAR after release? I ain't buying that line of reasoning for one second.
Brawl, Sprint, Rest... that's it... nothing else... or we'll be out of "balance".
/rant
EDIT, ok, I was being a bit unfair in my assessment, but my concerns remain.
"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
"Every time you post I feel like I been hit with a fist full of smart! Thanks." - Volken re: Sucker Punch
Arc #36984 V'kta A'cha Vox'm
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
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1) New players are constantly coming into the game, which means eventually that things which were not a problem before/were a minor problem are becoming BIG problems. (Much like a program can be out on the market for years before people figure out how to exploit things).
2) It was a low enough priority that they felt other issues were more important to fix, or they've been looking at it for awhile and finally decided that this was the best way to try to fix things.
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i dont believe a word of this, sorry. If it was true, you should have made these PvE changes before PvP went to test. you nerfed the perma powers soley because of the effitiveness in PvP... i dont recall anyone saying anything about Elude, MoG, and LF being "not as intended" before PvP... do you?
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Just because they don't say theres a problem doesen't mean there ISN'T.
I'm not even going to address PvP vs PvE. Others have done that, from all points of view, I've got nothing to add there other than to state for the record that I have zero interest in PvP.
But can someone please point me to a nice summation of the upcoming changes that I can read and digest over a cup of coffee?
I've tried to keep up, but I can't. There is simply too much, too conflicting, and coming too fast. I guess I'll just be winging it in PvE-land when it goes live because I don't have the time to devote to figuring out how the "new" CoH is going to work.
Trying to wade through the this-that-this-that patchnotes and forums is like drinking coffee from a firehose.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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Is one of these issues that a blaster's lifespan between hospital trips is far too long?
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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I am interested in knowing what aspect of SS and SJ is so overwhelming off-kilter in PvE that they need to be so curtailed?
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It wasn't fair.
Nerfing 2 powers, established for a year is easier then buffing one power (removing -acc from fly) for balance.
Check the "patch explation" by statesman.
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I am still a little worried that people arent getting the point - this game is suppose to be a challenge - it was never ment to be - or should it ever be Easy - that really is the bottom line - removing the Debuff would have brought back the Fly By Attacks - yea i know this is suppose to be based on a comic book and everyone in the comics can do stuff like that - but the bottom line is that it is a GAME based on comics - the GAME part has to come first - no challenge no replayability - to give a simple comparison - ON regular computer games a person gets the cheat codes and breezes through the game - sure that can be fun for a while - but in the end you get bored and move on to something else - god knows i have over 100 game disks starring me in the face right now on my desk - i have already beaten them all either fairly or by using cheat codes - once in a while i might go "Hey let me play this one again for fun" but honestly most of them are just sitting there gaining dust - which is ok - Those games dont survive on me having to pay into them monthly - once i buy it most devlopers could care less if i play it once or twice or even ever - they got the money already - replayability is the lifes blood of CoH - so even though we might not all like it they need to fix things that reduce the replayability of this game in order for the company to survive and to keep bring us who play more and more content - Think about it - we are about (dam soon i hope) to get a 4th update to a game for free - almost every other MMOrpg makes you spend money almost any time they update something - sure people will be upset about the changes, some people might have to alter the tactics they use on a character, sure people will quit, at least for a while, but in the end there are more people who will stay, some might even approve of the changes, and keep paying the monthly fee that keep Coh alive, and allows the developers to bring us new free content.
(2 notes - 1. Yes i know there is little to no punctuation but unfortunately i type in stream of thought - please forgive me and 2. I am not exactly a brown noser, some who know the name will know on occasion i openly disagree with the Devs, but in all honesty the devs have yet to truly "Nerf" anything in a way that has ever truly effected me or ruined a character i have, we are humans, we can adapt to any situation and rethink strategies, i am not saying it wont happen some day, it just hasnt yet)
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These changes are being made because powers were too powerful or weak in both PvP, not just PvE. The problem is that AI mobs don't complain when they are facing unanswerable powers or combinations of powers, but players do and PvP gave them the chance to be on the receiving end of some of these things. Thus their strength was brought to light and changes were made.
They were not changed because of PvP, they were just discovered in PvP.
Scorus
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Hopefully heroes are beating the AI most of the time, but if that were happening to human players, they'd complain. My point is, we're SUPPOSED to overwhelm the bad guys most of the time. It's when this happens to players that there's a problem... in other words, I still don't understand the reasoning behind the the PvE nerf, especially when it will affect the VALID tactics of so many 'squishies'.
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These changes are being made because powers were too powerful or weak in both PvP, not just PvE. The problem is that AI mobs don't complain when they are facing unanswerable powers or combinations of powers, but players do and PvP gave them the chance to be on the receiving end of some of these things. Thus their strength was brought to light and changes were made.
They were not changed because of PvP, they were just discovered in PvP.
Scorus
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Hopefully heroes are beating the AI most of the time, but if that were happening to human players, they'd complain. My point is, we're SUPPOSED to overwhelm the bad guys most of the time. It's when this happens to players that there's a problem... in other words, I still don't understand the reasoning behind the the PvE nerf, especially when it will affect the VALID tactics of so many 'squishies'.
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3 Letters
C O V
"All that crap is grey to me ... no xp" -- Positron
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These changes are being made because powers were too powerful or weak in both PvP, not just PvE. The problem is that AI mobs don't complain when they are facing unanswerable powers or combinations of powers, but players do and PvP gave them the chance to be on the receiving end of some of these things. Thus their strength was brought to light and changes were made.
They were not changed because of PvP, they were just discovered in PvP.
Scorus
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Hopefully heroes are beating the AI most of the time, but if that were happening to human players, they'd complain. My point is, we're SUPPOSED to overwhelm the bad guys most of the time. It's when this happens to players that there's a problem... in other words, I still don't understand the reasoning behind the the PvE nerf, especially when it will affect the VALID tactics of so many 'squishies'.
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Exactly, I'm being made to feel like I've been cheating, or getting over on game mechanics all this time. Well why stop with accuracy nerfs, Lets make superjump match real world physics completely, no more 90 degree turns to the right or left once Im airborne. Make my superspeeder skid 50 feet every time he stops. No, wait thats probably coming for the 2 year anniversary.
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No, wait thats probably coming for the 2 year anniversary.
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3rd year, actually.
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1. SJ/SS have worked this way since launch and yet only now is it so much of a problem that it had to be fixed.
2. Disciplines were given nearly double duration because of the problems squishes had with mez, but only NOW are they being replaced with break frees that have a substantially lower duration which has the curious effect of making mez effects viable in PvP.
3. MoG and Elude getting changed although many regens and SR players don't respec out of all their other powers, unlike Unstoppable, but DO take on all comers in PvP.
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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.
2. Disciplines haven't been around all that long; we've changed the way they work and their duration in response to player feedback - in PvE AND PvP. The "Break Free" changes started before the Arena was even implemented (internally, at least).
3. I think I explained the issues with perma-powers in the explanations. I've mentioned my concern about them for quite some time.
Is PvP a consideration? Sure. Is it THE consideration? No. Each of your points were primarily PvE issues.
Liquid, I can understand your points... you're always pretty good at stating them... and I can see where just because no one complained doesn't mean there wasn't a problem, but look: Don't you find it the least bit interesting that now that they are trying to shoehorn PvP in, they are suddenly discovering all these powers that were "already broken"?
It just seems fishy to me... I'm not usually one who complains either, I've had my share of adapting to do, and have pretty much done so without complaint becuase I do believe that there should be some challenge to the game, but I am really getting worried that once someone discovers a new tactic that is perfectly valid, that power is going to be looked at and changed so that the tactic will no longer work.
This is an evolving game, there are, as you say, always new players coming in and new tactics (some of which are explotive perhaps) but are being discovered... I just... I don't know... I really didn't see a good PvE reason for doing this to SS or SJ.
Anyway...
"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
"Every time you post I feel like I been hit with a fist full of smart! Thanks." - Volken re: Sucker Punch
Arc #36984 V'kta A'cha Vox'm
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Agreed.
We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.
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Like what, my blasters have to watch their butts even more now, so I can feel less like a Superhero?
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Liquid, I can understand your points... you're always pretty good at stating them... and I can see where just because no one complained doesn't mean there wasn't a problem, but look: Don't you find it the least bit interesting that now that they are trying to shoehorn PvP in, they are suddenly discovering all these powers that were "already broken"?
It just seems fishy to me... I'm not usually one who complains either, I've had my share of adapting to do, and have pretty much done so without complaint becuase I do believe that there should be some challenge to the game, but I am really getting worried that once someone discovers a new tactic that is perfectly valid, that power is going to be looked at and changed so that the tactic will no longer work.
This is an evolving game, there are, as you say, always new players coming in and new tactics (some of which are explotive perhaps) but are being discovered... I just... I don't know... I really didn't see a good PvE reason for doing this to SS or SJ.
Anyway...
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Does it seem strange? Of course it does. Does that mean thats the reason why it was done? Of course not. The problem is that people are trying to blame all the changes they don't like on PvP, and are (for the most part) claiming that Statesman is lying about why the changes were made without having any kind of proof. In other words, taking what can very well be just a coincidence and trying to use it as damning proof.
And in the end, it's not good for the community, and is rather unfair to Statesman and the other Dev's.
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I keep shooting off my text-mouth without reading: Statesman addresses the issues here.
I still don't see it with Super Jump... but I'll hop to that thread to babble about it.
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Thanks. I shot my mouth off a bit too....
So then, some questions:
Is there anyway to restrict this debuff to range so that we can get our speedsters back, at least for melee? (I can't imagine Flash, Quicksilver, or Silverstrike missing that much).
In what way do the devs plan on working with the blasters so that they don't need these powers to be safe?
By the way, I can still 'hover snipe' with hover, but I can't do anything like that with hasten (and I have to be VERY creative with combat jump for it to be useful that way). I understand that hasten has advantages that the others don't, I'm just saying that now I have to get another powerpool (swift) to offset the lack of travel powers in the SS pool. That's not true of SJ and is even less true of Flight for combat purposes.
I would guess that there are alot of blasters preparing to respec out of their chosen travel pool in order to get hover, even though flight is still the slowest way to go.
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To quote Statesman's explanation in that Training Room forum post:
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o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap. PvP/PvE
There was an inherent unfairness with the travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.
Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.
Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful –recharge).
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Except that Super Speed originally had an Accuracy debuff -- as well as a Defense buff -- and both of them were removed shortly after the release of the game; IIRC, prior to Update 1. So, after all this time, it suddenly becomes a burning necessity to slap the Acc penalty back on? As if the 'move past your target, attack triggers in motion, then executes after a delay' factor hadn't been there all along? And stick it to Super Jump as well?
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers