We also need to realize that the elemental primaries lack Invuln's passives. Stone has an RPD analog. Ice and Fire have passives for Fire and Ice. But that is all they have! Invuln has RPD, R/el, R/en, and TH. Plus only Invuln has Unstoppable to help use Rage if need be. GA and Hibernate are toggles, and RoTP is not an issue here (well it could be, since you may need it), so they will crash with the end crash and that can be terrible for them.
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1.) Rage is going to change so that everyone is going to suffer a penalty. Not my idea (although I support it; if some should be able to get around the penalty and others not, that's not fair). Just relaying what the devs said.
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This is the only one that really bugs me. You can feel one way or the other about Rage, but the above statement makes no sense. A Tanker makes it far enough into the game to get Rage, but has no status protection? So they spend all their time getting chain-sleeped by Yellow Ink Men, but have some sort of beef with the minor disorient at the end of Rage?
Can someone please explain this to me? I mean, if I spend all of my power slots on Travel powers, am I really entitled to complain that my Tanker's defenses are inadequate? Is it somehow "unfair" to me? I am just not getting this line of reasoning...
I'd have to agree... Rage is fine as it is... It actually makes Super Strength feel like you have Super Strength and you still have to be careful about using it against certain mobs... A end drain on this power would make it very unpopular and provoke more unrest with the Tanker Populace...
After all, if it's not broke, don't fix it! lol
I haven't played an SS tanker past level 8, and even I can see that this change doesn't make sense. Considering the relatively low level of SS damage to begin with, rage was one of the few attractive options about the set (other than concept, which is a biggie). But with this change you've traded: some tankers drop toggles at the end of rage to: ALL tankers drop toggles, and everything else at the end of rage. I suppose I can understand this for a ninth tier power, but for a 7th? Especially for a tanker who is SUPPOSED to be taking damage whether solo or in a team?
If you want to put in a significant penalty to make it costly as a perma power, make it drop to 10% defense. Or, extend the recharge duration so that it can't be perma. But to make use of the power a death sentence will eliminate use of the power. Most tankers without toggles are simply big lumps of meat splashed over the floor. This sort of penalty, particularly for tankers, should be reserved only for the use of VERY powerful powers that give the tanker a fair shot to either escape combat or eliminate all foes before the penalty hits (see unstoppable).
Just two cents from an amateur tank.
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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Ok let us re-examine this again.
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless.
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Here Statesman acknowledges that a lot of SS Tankers hate the stun, because even with preparation it can hurt you. And sets the tone that he wants to come up with an amenable solution.
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At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty.
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This is the sentence that is both profound and somewhat confusing. First off Perma-Unstoppable is a non-issue since that option is gone. Second, Uy is by no stretch of the imagination a "hardcore" power, it is a lynchpin of the set, if not actually required. I got it later then 8 originally myself but also remember I had slotted Brawl and Sprint back then. I could hardly have been considered "hardcore". This also only mentions Invuln powers and not our elemental Tanker kin. I admit that Invuln/SS is a common Tanker type, but not the only SS user. Casual players were getting stunned and hardcore were not? Uy is a very common power for us so I honestly do not see the difference here since Uy does the same for "Captain Uber" and "Joe Player". If they want an unavoidable penalty for all, it must be palatable for when Rage is needed, not just because we want to use it.
The current test Rage can be fun, but why bother? Rage is not needed when just street-sweeping or soloing. It just reduces the amount of time you are in contact with your foes by defeating them faster. Rage's damage boost is only needed against the very nasty, powerful foes like: Nemesis, Bobcat, Anti-Matter, and their ilk. These fights last too long for it to be a practical aid.
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We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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This is the sentence that gives me hope. They seem to want to give us a penalty we cannot avoid, but it must be a practical one! The devs are listening to us, and want us to be able to use this power for when it is going to matter, not just to do 2k damage to that 8 hellion we just had to show off with. 
Personally, I feel it's fine. So many SS Tankers either use it sparingly or not at all that it proves that the penalty is not trivial.
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1.) I believe if they thought the SS set was somehow lacking due to it's middle-of-the-road damage output amongst other tanker secondaries that they would have changed it. They've had plenty of opportunity, especially since I3 where all tank powers got a boost. They could've just given it to SS, or made SS's bigger. But they didn't.
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It's unwise to speculate about the dev's intentions based on what they DIDN'T do. For one thing it's happened on occasion that they don't know EVERYTHING about every power set in the game. For another, CoH is a large-scale development project with limited development and testing resources. They just don't have the ability to do everything they would want to do when they want to do it.
It is my closely held belief that the devs want to have a good game balance between the various sets of any given Archetype (not necessarily in the form of damage, but it is the primary consideration of a damage set). That's because that's good game design and they're good game designers. 
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2.) If Rage was, by design, meant (as a gift from Geko) to somehow "balance out" the damage of SS, he sure went really out of his way to do it (btw, does anyone have the link where he actually states this? I wasn't able to find it).
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I got the impression Rage was intended as a temporary boost and players found out you could perma it. (It may have been the intent from the start that you could perma click powers.) Then, when Superstrength was adjusted in I2, they adjusted following what was there, which meant they adjusted with perma-Rage in mind.
I'm speculating here, but again, it's the issue that they've adjusted Superstrength in the past compared to what it was at the beginning of the game. Or to make another example: if they wanted KO blow to do lots of damage, they'd have done so from the start, right?
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3.) In a recent post by Statesman he said that by using mez protection powers to prevent being disoriented when Rage wore off (thereby not suffering the penalty), one had an unfair advantage over others who did not have those mez protection powers, and this was going to also be fixed.
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He said that there was an "unfair advantadge", yes. I'm given to question how unfair it is given how unlikely it is a level 28 Tanker will *not* have some sort of disorient protection. Nevertheless, what he did not say was this:
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not only do the devs fully intend to have us use Rage in the manner in which they intended (non-perma, situational only),
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He said this:
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they're going to make sure that EVERYONE who uses it suffers it's penalty.
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Which, I can agree with. It's good for game balance and he's a good designer. I do disagree that Unyielding (and the like) negates the penalty, and I disagree that using disorient protection with Rage is some sort of closely held hardcore-gamer secret. But finding a different penalty that leaves the power usable (balance) and makes it work with any of the primary sets is a good idea.
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And I will disagree with you that SS attack power is at a "sub-par damage level" or that the damage is "poor".
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That's been amply demonstrated, given equivalent slotting. Which makes the enhancement argument totally irrelevant. People are putting damage enhancers in their attacks (often six) and they're still doing inferior damage to other secondaries.
Rage as it is now is an Extreme use power? It is useless against DE because of thier high Res to smashing, its pointless against Freakshow because they can Rez themselves, Malta has so many stuns that i do not think anyone would consider it, Council has slows so thier went you ability to fight, Rikti have psionics, SO where is the Extreme use?
The point is if a tank is in a bad situation Greater Damage is not going to be the answer. Superstrength Strength DPS is so low that if they faced an opponent whom Could actaully go through thier HP fairly easily that popping rage would just be an object lesson in kissing the ground. In dire situations Greater Res is the answer. Isn't this the Entire reason why people are angry about Unstoppable? The fact that if something can force them to pop unstoppable the greater Res and End increase is negated because said opponents will probably outlive the duration time of Unstoppable? In that Case Rage is far more worthless in extreme situations (for which it is supposedly for?) and only serves to make the the situation even more dangerous.
I have yet to find a situation that has made me need greater damage output to save myself.
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Secondly: lay off the endurance penalties. As it is, with stamina 5-slotted, I already spend a significant amount of time sitting around, staring at walls, waiting for my endurance to come back. I've been down this road before (with the same character -- SB's been around for a while), and before the endurance adjustment on attacks, I had stopped playing Susie-Bot altogether. I just got tired of spending all my time watching a little blue bar creep back up.
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This made my smile, because I keep a book alongside my desk to read while I wait for my END to recharge.
The Beatnik,
who can get pretty far ahead on his reading on the days he gets into a lot of combat. ;-)
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The point has already been made multiple times that Geko balanced out the damage of SS taking Rage into account, but lets consider what you've just said anyway.
You are positing the idea that Superstrength damage SHOULD be sub-par, and that this is an INTENTIONAL design element.
Now, please explain to me for what reason WOULD or MUST SS be kept at a sub-par damage level? I'm asking you, WHY would the Devs decide that Super Strength damage must be poor? What possible design reason justifies that?
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As far as I can tell, damaging powers in almost all the sets have secondary effects that add to the main benefit of damaging your opponent. So for example, fire has dot, very few opponents resist psionics, electricity drains end, etc.
With SS the benefit was that knockback was done. Now, aside from the fact that in usage knockback is a downside to melee opponents, this could be considered worth having the SS powerset be weaker than say, energy, since energy only disorients (I believe) rather than what I guess was considered more powerful knockback.
Now I admit that there are some holes in this theory, since the dev's are very competant, hardworking, etc., and therefore must have realized that knockback does not equal better to a melee set.. but maybe in production it was overlooked, whatever.
Regardless of that fact, IF SS powerset is considered benefited enough by knockback that damage should be less that other tanker powersets, THEN damage should have been increased for the set in and of itself, aside from the I3 "increase" (regardless of the actuality of whether damage was increased in effect due to end slotting needs post nonpermaunstoppable), because knockback (and it's questionable benefits to a melee set) was removed in it's effect to even cons.
SO, this being the case, before we look at whether rage should have a end drop, has ANYONE measured on test the effectiveness of SS compared to other tanker sets? I know that we all consider it sub par compared to energy, but does anyone have a damage per second comparison?
To be able to say that SS needs to have rage given a change (for benefit or detriment to the users of the poweset), we have to do the following.
<ul type="square">[*]Develop a same level comparison of Damage Per Second between differing tanker sets, against same con mobs, who are NOT resistant to the damage types used by the compared tanker sets.
[*]Determine the Damage Per Second of SS in the same comparison as above, WITH Rage.
[*]Determine the loss of Damage Per Second caused by the end drop found on test (that is, the loss of Damage Per Second) due to standing around, unheroically waiting for End to come back to the level before the end drop.[/list]
Then we can reasonably say if SS is better in damage than other sets, if SS is better in damage than other sets with Rage, and whether with the end drop SS is better than other sets.
The thing that annoys me is that, while I understand they have a billion other things to do, couldn't this be done by the imms in like a few hours? After all, presumably, they can make a character, level the character, test with the character; a stop watch and a calculator, in a lot less time than we can. And they know the resistances of mobs, and the exact damage a attack does, and so on. Heck they could do it on paper, I presume. Am I just wrong or what?
It seems self evident that Rage isn't needing the much harsher penalty, and could stand a little magnitude reduction in it's disorient, without unbalancing the "all powerful SS" group, but if testing is what's needed, then why make the players do it.. it wouldnt take that long.
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I am neither for nor against perma rage. I don't care one way or the other really. How one person builds their toon is up to them. But the Devs on the other hand have repeatedly said, over and over, that click powers with penalties are NOT meant to be perma.
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Please don't lie about what the devs have said, and please do not imply that they are so brain-jarringly stupid as to be unaware how to adjust a power's timers so that it cannot be permaed if that is in fact a goal. Thanks, in advance.
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The point is Rage is going to be changed whether we like it or not and now we have the chance to try and bring it out of the ashes. I would rather have an Immediate penelty (though not that End Crasher) then its current form provides. Rage quite frankly sucks and one can do better without it and thats the Problem. With Rage on you might kill a little faster then me but I will not suffer anyset backs and I will not have to fear anything. Kinda Sucks when a rage tank can be looked at as more of a liabilty then a welcomed opportunity of damage production.
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I disagree with this opinion. I'm not saying this poster is wrong however, it is so matter of fact I felt obligated to present my counter to it. Rage has drawbacks, that in certain situations is harsh, but if proper tactics are used like defender with something to keep you lucid or unyielding, and/or keeping your passive protection high as a fail-safe, it not only adds depth to the character's character, it is a nice boost in damage and accuracy. It can be complimentary or a staple power. I am of the opinion that the duration and quick recharge actually makes this power better than Build Up. (having only had experience with Buld Up on my Energy blaster).
I don't want to sit here and try to push this or sell it on anyone, but if some like it and some don't, that is the point. It's an option, a choice. You don't have to take all your Primary and Secondary powers. We have other pools to look at if we want something safer for accuracy and damage boosts.
I'm just asking to please leave that choice available and don't chage Rage.
Now as an Invul tank (who happens to have SS as a seconary).. I'm beggin' ya'... I'm looking for pity here. Just let this one go. I really hope this poster is wrong and that this isn't definite 'gonna change no matter what' situation. Seriously, I can't justify spending hours tweeking my build again. All my accuracy and damage will be reworked on all powers ... again. Just like what i had to do to scrape together soem endurance post perma-unstop. I didn't mind doing it once, but again???
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Hmm... here's a thought. If the devs had wanted SS to hit as hard as the other tanker secondaries THEY WOULD HAVE MADE US HIT AS HARD AS THE OTHER TANKER SECONDARIES.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Now since we can pretty safely assume the devs DON'T want SS attacks to be as powerful as other tanks, how do you think they're gonna like it when you take what they designed to be a limited-use situational power and use it perma so that you CAN have attacks that are as strong, if not stronger than other tanks?
Now stop and think about that. Wait. Think a little longer. Again
(hint: they don't want SS attacks to be as strong as other tank attacks and I'm misusing a power to allow me to do what they don't want and never intended me to do, that is, have attacks that are as strong as other tanks)
Got it? Now try and see if you can figure out why they're changing Rage?
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IMO, Super Strength should be *slightly* weaker than the other secondary sets of tankers without Rage, but (slightly)greater with it. At that point, a *modest* drawback (slower END recover, slow movement, END hit at the end, just something not as drastic a 0 END) is perfectly valid.
It gives Super Strength flavor without being over balanced.
Or Rage needs to be turned into one of those very situtational powers that you can't use often, but it *really* kicks assets while it is activate.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Rage as it is now is an Extreme use power? It is useless against DE because of thier high Res to smashing, its pointless against Freakshow because they can Rez themselves, Malta has so many stuns that i do not think anyone would consider it, Council has slows so thier went you ability to fight, Rikti have psionics, SO where is the Extreme use?
The point is if a tank is in a bad situation Greater Damage is not going to be the answer. Superstrength Strength DPS is so low that if they faced an opponent whom Could actaully go through thier HP fairly easily that popping rage would just be an object lesson in kissing the ground. In dire situations Greater Res is the answer. Isn't this the Entire reason why people are angry about Unstoppable? The fact that if something can force them to pop unstoppable the greater Res and End increase is negated because said opponents will probably outlive the duration time of Unstoppable? In that Case Rage is far more worthless in extreme situations (for which it is supposedly for?) and only serves to make the the situation even more dangerous.
I have yet to find a situation that has made me need greater damage output to save myself.
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This is innacurate in my experience. I remember that in my twenties when first running up against the devouring earth, I had my defenses well slotted, but my attacks poorly slotted, because I had been damaged so thoroughly and often pre invincible in my teens. The result was that against the DE my damage was so poor that I could barely keep up with the regen. The changes I was able to make with slotting as I gained more slots, toward damage, and Rage, allowed me to handle them.
The same applies now. And... arresting the chief mesmerist protects me from multiple status affects hitting and affecting me, and from the toxic affects of the nemesis, and so on. Damage output can be effective in helping you, along the "best defense is a good offense" line of thinking.
BUT I am still wondering where the problem is with perma rage, and the problem with rage's disorient penalty comes from. I gather people complained.. but I run my 37 on invincible against Rikti, DE, whatever, and solo I rarely run into status affects penetrating my unyielding, and my rage is almost perma. In group situations I usually have status protection from the healer. So why are we doing this again?
I have unfortunetly trudged through all the posts on the change to Rage and how it is on test. I haven't seen anyone post from extended testing experience.
Part 1: With a single rage running, when it drops a -def, -end penalty is suffered. The end loss is total, virtually guaranteeing toggle drop.
Part 2: With two rages running, (ie stacked), when one drops a -def penalty is suffered. NO -end. I have tested this many many many times. It is no fluke. No -end if there is still an active rage running.
I believe this is intended. There is no way to avoid total end loss, just a way to prolong the time until the drop. And at each individual rage crash there is a -def penalty that lasts about 10sec.
I agree that if there were only part 1 at every rage crash then the power would be useless. But as it stands now on test it is better than the disorientate IMO.
in a high end gaming environment where
(1) the "squishy" classes can easily be 1-shot killed by mobs,
(2) the amount and threat level of the mobs increases with group size (missions), and
(3) 1 AT is designated as the "take all the punishment for the team" person so the group can succeed . . .
in this type of gaming environment (which only has hints of getting even more challenging) it makes no sense to continually try to completely balance the "take all the punishment for the team" AT. this AT (yes, the Tanker) needs to be given the same feeling of power and ability that the other ATs provide. continue to weaken the "point man" and CoH will go from being a mmorg to a cascading domino effect of lost subscriptions.
many aspects of the Tanker AT are gimp. stop trying to balance each power (or power combo) out to zero. start adding some plusses to the Tanker score sheet. if you need some tips on how powerful the Tanker AT should be brought up to just look at the other 4 basic ATs . . . 4 out of 5 aint bad, but it aint good enough for a mmorg.
taking my Rad/Electric Defender for example.
he has powers withgreat effects that have high costs. but he also has powers available within his power sets that help him mitigate the downsides . . . the balances to the powers.
for example; no outright status resistances . . . but, AM provides a reduction in affected time and RI provides a way to make the mobs status effect atacks miss more. singularly they both provide a sub par defense against status effects, but together they create a synergy of effect by bolstering each others effects. i see no devs rushing to balance this combo out to zero so that the combination of the two is no better than each one on it's own.
his "oh so nice" debuffs and control powers have high endurance costs, and yet right there within my power set i have a power (AM) specifically designed to mitigate that downside. and thankfully i still see no devs rushing to balance that facet of my fun-to-play defender to zero.
the Tanker AT was meant to take the most amount of punishment, but i thought that meant from in-game mobs . . . not from the dev team.
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I have unfortunetly trudged through all the posts on the change to Rage and how it is on test. I haven't seen anyone post from extended testing experience.
Part 1: With a single rage running, when it drops a -def, -end penalty is suffered. The end loss is total, virtually guaranteeing toggle drop.
Part 2: With two rages running, (ie stacked), when one drops a -def penalty is suffered. NO -end. I have tested this many many many times. It is no fluke. No -end if there is still an active rage running.
I believe this is intended. There is no way to avoid total end loss, just a way to prolong the time until the drop. And at each individual rage crash there is a -def penalty that lasts about 10sec.
I agree that if there were only part 1 at every rage crash then the power would be useless. But as it stands now on test it is better than the disorientate IMO.
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I've mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I very much doubt the non-Endurance drain on the Rage stack is intentional. If they've managed to get around to "fixing" the effect stack on Moment of Glory, then they'll eventually do the same for this new Rage.
Even more of a reason why Rage should be left as it is.
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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Ok, let me rehash, pardon ahead to those that this is tedious to.
<ul type="square">[*]First, Having an excellent power with status protection and resistances is not hardcore, it's sensible.
[*]Second, permaunstoppable is irrevelant, it's gone. Second, permaunstoppable is irrevelant, it's gone.
[*]Third, a full end drop is a near certainty of toggle drop, and therefore harsher than a 15 second possibility of toggle drop from disorient, so the full drop is a bad idea. Frankly, while I believe yourself and all the other dev's are outstanding, I am surprised you considered it.
[*]Fourth, I recognize and appreciate that the changes to rage you are considering are based upon player complaint, thanks.
[*]Fifth, When is the last day you will be datamining before you make a decision on whether or what changes to make to rage, so I and other players know when to not bother to test further. If you don't know yet, can you let us know when you do?
[*]Sixth, IS the SS test inferior in damage compared to other tanker secondary sets? With or without rage? How much? You must know this, and it would be better for the player base and the quality of the posts to know than conjecture.[/list]
Now, regarding the End drop. This is in my opinion a bad idea because:
1. Standing around is unheroic and boring. In a comic book, the various "tanky" type heroes might be hurt, but they keep fighting. They don't stand around being attacked by their foes. In real life it's boring and frankly makes me feel like a detriment to the team I am on.
2. The end drop discourages teaming. If I feel I am a detriment to a team, I will avoid teaming, because I don't want to hold them up, something standing around waiting for end recovery (or nabbing other people's cabs) will do. Furthermore, the end drop is even more dangerous in a team. In solo play I can usually run away, or at least survive the drop of toggles, since I am fighting smaller amounts of foes. In group play, the time I take turning on my toggles again (way more than the measly 15 sec disorient), is enough for me to drop agg, and have the squishies in the back of the group have a chance to sample the local dirt.
3. End drop is disheartening. I want to be tough, dangerous, cool, whatever. I didn't take unstoppable for the same reason... the on again/off again powers like unstoppable and what you are planning for rage are depressing and unfun.
To Magnus Star,
I can't assume to know that the dev's intents are. Nor am I trying to prove you (or anyone) wrong when I say I believe 'it is working as intended'.
My reasons?? Well lets see if I can make a case for my irrational and completely baseless assumption.
Statesman stated that they were trying a change in Rage to make it easier?? Not his exact words but the disorient was a rather sticky downside to overcome for some tankers. Total endurance loss after each use of Rage doesn't qualify as easier to deal with.
The new info for Rage on test states the 'While Raging...' you get such and such, and that 'when it subsides..' you suffer end loss. Maybe in my wishful thinking I'm reading that to mean that as long as I stay raged (ie stacked) I can prolong the -end timer. But eventually, I will suffer that penalty. Additionally I am not avoiding the other concequences of -def. (Which I'm happy to note now has a graphic effect letting me know when it's active and when it has subsided.). Which is exactly how it is working on test atm.
As for the comparison to MoG, I see your point, but disagree that Rage is in the same class as a power such as MoG. Rage is basically a deluxe version of Build Up and as such needs a minor downside to offset its minor advantage over BU.
IMO, a MAJOR downside that complete end loss is but with the ability to mitigate it (but not avoid completely) equals out to a minor downside. Follow my reasoning??
Have I made you a believer?? Prolly not, but that is my (flawwed?) reasoning for my belief. Opinion pure and simple.
Given the choice between Rage as it is on live and test. I chose how it is on test. Assuming 'it is working as intended'. If it turns out the lack of the -end component with stacking is a bug, then I agree Rage would be of dubious value for 95% of play.
I dont play an SS tank but i thought id comment anyways, unstoppable sucks now... why would you make rage the same way?
Best idea ive heard for rage in this thread was give it a cost like hasten and a -end recov when it wears off to simulate being tired.
All I can say is Woot! Statesman answers!
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I disagree with this opinion. I'm not saying this poster is wrong however, it is so matter of fact I felt obligated to present my counter to it. Rage has drawbacks, that in certain situations is harsh, but if proper tactics are used like defender with something to keep you lucid or unyielding, and/or keeping your passive protection high as a fail-safe, it not only adds depth to the character's character, it is a nice boost in damage and accuracy. It can be complimentary or a staple power. I am of the opinion that the duration and quick recharge actually makes this power better than Build Up. (having only had experience with Buld Up on my Energy blaster).
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Thanks, for the chance to truely debate this. Rage in and of itself does not have a true use other then pwning (this term is acceptable?) weak minions and Lts. Do you really need the Extra damage when noone is hurting you? Does the benifits equal out over the risks? One of the points to make is why should Rage be a power thats only useable with Unyielding or better yet why should Rage be a power that has Severe Drawbacks again most of the High lvl Villian groups. The point is Rage is supposed to up the Chances for the Tanks victory while providing an post-rage Penalty that evens out the bonus that Rage gave. It however provides a two minute Accuracy/Damage buff that is followed by 15 seconds of stun or Potential Stun for what? I can easily beat Plus 5lvl opponets without Rage but with Rage I would reduce my chances of victory by a severe margin so whats the point of the power? When does a tank ever have to Pop rage? Why haven't any of the Rage supporters answered this question?
Why should the Defender on my team have to devote himself to covering the Rage tank because the Rage tank wants to be selfish and outdo the Scrappers? That weakens the team when the defender has to devote his attention to ONE CHARACTER because that said Tank wants to use Rage. Even with Rage the Rage Tank is not going to add anymore true benifit but the Scrappers and Blasters WILL clear the Zone far faster then the Rage Tank with Rage on. So it adds nothing to the Team Aspect.
The tanks Job first and foremost is to protect the Team and that means we should only need to worry about Heals, so we can let the Defender and the Controllers give assistance to the "squishies". A tank who is going to gamble so he can do a little bit more damage and be a little more accurate at the risk of himself and his team is being selfish. If the Rage Tank wants to be a Scranker they can go get Regen Scrapper as they can tank and do Damage!
The entire point that this 7th Tier power needs either Inspirations, Character buffs, or a simple "do not use on Tough Opponents" to be "affective" shows this power needs tweaking. Why Should an SS tank Suffer potential or guarented toggle drops for gains that aren't going to add a true advantage? Take a look at a Fire Blaster with Inferno for example. The Blaster has a nice trade off because a tank can Aggro an entire mob so the Blaster can run in and nuke the group without any risk. Its a Total end blow with no Status affects but all who were hit are dead or near dead. Even with the Risk for Inferno(example power) its net gain is far more important. Rage does not even provide ONE TENTH of that Performance yet you suffer consquences that can or will result in Toggle drop and potential Death. Toggle Drops while fighting a mob is never good.
By the way my RPD is Six slotted, Resist Energy ( I fight Rikti a lot again) is Five Slotted, and Resist Element 2 slotted (Thats my next project). I devote a lot to my Primary but I have not forgotten my secondaries.
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I don't want to sit here and try to push this or sell it on anyone, but if some like it and some don't, that is the point. It's an option, a choice. You don't have to take all your Primary and Secondary powers. We have other pools to look at if we want something safer for accuracy and damage boosts.
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Yes we do and currently Haste is a far superior power that leads the question why do we need Rage? Yes Rage is a choice and currently a horrible choice.
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I'm just asking to please leave that choice available and don't change Rage.
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Why? Its already broken why does it need to stay broken? As it stands the Devs will think the current rage is either A.) a power with a penalty that can be mitagted by Hardcore players trying to make it work or B.) needs fixing and badly so to be more appealing and appropriet 7th tier power.
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Now as an Invul tank (who happens to have SS as a seconary).. I'm beggin' ya'... I'm looking for pity here. Just let this one go. I really hope this poster is wrong and that this isn't definite 'gonna change no matter what' situation. Seriously, I can't justify spending hours tweeking my build again. All my accuracy and damage will be reworked on all powers ... again. Just like what i had to do to scrape together soem endurance post perma-unstop. I didn't mind doing it once, but again???
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Rage needs to be changed and why are you so afraid of the changes when we have a say? If it can be made better is it not worth it? By the way I am not trying to be rude and i do not want to give you the impression i am trying to discredit you or anything. This is an online RPG and with that you should get used totweaking and retweaking characters. Its NORMAL (unfortantly) and its a part of the game and if you do not like it do not play RPGs as its worse in the Paper and Pencil format.
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<ul type="square"> Fifth, When is the last day you will be datamining before you make a decision on whether or what changes to make to rage, so I and other players know when to not bother to test further. If you don't know yet, can you let us know when you do?[/list]
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Thanks for this question and I would like to know to. This our personal time to help out the seller for a game we pay for. I think it would be very nice to know.
This response isn't to argue, just to clarify.
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..When does a tank ever have to Pop rage? Why haven't any of the Rage supporters answered this question?
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I use the power Rage whenever it is available (which is near perma). I have 1 recyc reduc and 4 ToHit buffs in this power. All attack powers (6 slotted) are 1 end reduc and the rest damage. I pop on my single slotted Invincibility if I have trouble hitting. I can defeat some +7 Lieus over a long period of fighting but I normally only fight +2 and +3s for efficient XP...
If Rage is changed to a toggle or an endurance penalty drop at the end like Hasten I will drop Rage as a power. Hasten is already dipping into my valuable endurance resources along with my new dependance on toggle.
With Rage I can solo more quickly because of higher damage output and in a group I do not use it if there are mezzers around. I use Invincibiliy to supplement in ToHit buff which is just enough to hit reasonable often and helps me keep agro in groups (along with new Taunt and punch-voke).
I think my above tactics are reasonable and allows my tank to be tolerable soloing and still be a agro machine in a group.
If I felt forced into dropping Rage, I would sacrifice 1 damage enh per power for Acc thus reducing my damage. This would be the second damage enhancement loss per power for my main. First dam enh loss was as a result of tweeks to Invul.
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Why should the Defender on my team have to devote himself to covering the Rage tank because the Rage tank wants to be selfish and outdo the Scrappers?
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I do not outdo or even keep up with either of the 2 regen scrappers I knock around with, with or without Rage. See above tactics for my answer to teaming concerns. Also, I dropped Unstoppable also to keep from being "selfish" or more accurately, inconsiderate really. Dodging out of a fight ever 3+ minutes is annoying but I think you would probably agree with me on that if I'm reading your responses correctly.
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That weakens the team when the defender has to devote his attention to ONE CHARACTER because that said Tank wants to use Rage.
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If a player expects a defender's 'finger on the triggle' and aiming always at them, that is rudenss problem, I agree. A more conservative play style mode as I mentioned above should be used. I will usually talk to a defender before using it. If they don't mind keeping an eye on me, why not use it as a valid tactic? Out of the last 3 Defenders I played with all were happy to still get useage out of powers such as Clear Mind.
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Yes we do and currently Haste is a far superior power that leads the question why do we need Rage? Yes Rage is a choice and currently a horrible choice.
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Hasten is very good. I have that as well. Rage along with and 1 recharge reduc is alwasy on. I will just have to disagree with it being 'horrible' here. That's fine. I really think that it is still more preference. My only hard data is that at level 41 I can do missions on Invincible difficulty or fight +3 hunting and get a bubble (1/10 a level) an hour easily solo. A little better than that teamed (only using Rage occassionally). Not the hardest data but I'm satisfied with that XP rate.
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I'm just asking to please leave that choice available and don't change Rage.
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Why? Its already broken why does it need to stay broken? As it stands the Devs will think the current rage is either A.) a power with a penalty that can be mitagted by Hardcore players trying to make it work or B.) needs fixing and badly so to be more appealing and appropriet 7th tier power.
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After the invul changes, I have a trust problem with the devs. I am worried the Rage changes will either cost it's perma-ability or cost me more endurance. These are both unacceptible. If you think "fixing" it equals leaving it alone but removing the stun penalty, then I'm on your side. Maybe making it cost 5 more enduarance to activate on top of that, I'm still with you... anything else is a grey area.
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Rage needs to be changed and why are you so afraid of the changes when we have a say? If it can be made better is it not worth it? By the way I am not trying to be rude and i do not want to give you the impression i am trying to discredit you or anything. This is an online RPG and with that you should get used totweaking and retweaking characters. Its NORMAL (unfortantly) and its a part of the game and if you do not like it do not play RPGs as its worse in the Paper and Pencil format.
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As I stated above. I'm worried about what changes dev will make. My trust of them is low after many hours leveling an Invul tank to spend about 6/10 of a level (about 6 hours if you get my reference) of my time or more testing changes and testing final builds to take live, after the infamous invul 'tweeks'.
As for credibilty. I'm not too worried how I appear to others based on responses to my posts in these forums. Anonymity is good like that.... But since it came up, I have the following creditials to offer, though I doubt my mentioning it really matters. I've played pen and paper RPG for 17+ years, just recently quit because of time constraints. (all spare time goes into playing CoH with my wife or doing something responsibly and adult like.. bleh) Actually my main tank is based on a fairly recent Champions character of mine, loosely. I've played multiplayer games (not massive multiplayer) for about 3 years or so. This is my first Massive Multiplayer.
I'm sure you are right that lots of changes happen. Though not a MMP, updates were made in Age of Mythology that completely changed my staple civ builds in that game. I adjusted. I can adjust here, but I only have patience for so much testing while I pay the bills. Likely this will be my first and only MMP... actually this whole experience has made me rethink online gaming as a whole and what I personally would tolerate. Hate to leave my post on a sour note but that is not aimed at anyone. Just not very satisfied with online gaming of late. Dissappointment in PC game releases last year have been disheartening. CoH was a breath of fresh air, however, some of the recent changes I've seen and experienced can hardly be classified as tweeks and have borderline ruined the game for me. This is not grandstanding for I plan to try to muscle through to 50 just to have a "completion" of sorts, however if many more tweeks happen I won't be completing the game I started so 'completion' has no point which equals me quitting.
I am so glad they have changed their minds on this issue. But I am concerned the post suggests they are still going to alter it. I would just be happier if they left Rage completely alone.
It is not in anyway "broken" as some have suggested. Nor is it an "ubre" power like Hasten.
To my recollection there have been at least two write ups of Super Strength DPS in these forums. Both had Super Strength + Rage ranked below Energy Melee (but not by much).
What worries my most about this whole issue is the idea that a disadvantage that can be mitigated by a "hard-core player" (whatever that is?) is a bad thing and needs to be changed! Currently Rage is one of the few powers that makes me think about the combat at a blow-by-blow level (for 15 seconds at least). With most other powers all tactics are reduced to the level of a RTS.
Please leave Rage exactly as it is.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Hmm... here's a thought. If the devs had wanted SS to hit as hard as the other tanker secondaries THEY WOULD HAVE MADE US HIT AS HARD AS THE OTHER TANKER SECONDARIES.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Now since we can pretty safely assume the devs DON'T want SS attacks to be as powerful as other tanks, how do you think they're gonna like it when you take what they designed to be a limited-use situational power and use it perma so that you CAN have attacks that are as strong, if not stronger than other tanks?
Now stop and think about that. Wait. Think a little longer. Again
(hint: they don't want SS attacks to be as strong as other tank attacks and I'm misusing a power to allow me to do what they don't want and never intended me to do, that is, have attacks that are as strong as other tanks)
Got it? Now try and see if you can figure out why they're changing Rage?
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Willy, I have seen several of your post and I know your the advocate of no Perma Rage.
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I am neither for nor against perma rage. I don't care one way or the other really. How one person builds their toon is up to them. But the Devs on the other hand have repeatedly said, over and over, that click powers with penalties are NOT meant to be perma. They are situational only. This is one (of a few) reasons why permaunstoppable is now nonpermaunstoppable.
I didn't say it. I didn't make it up. Statesman said it. Take it up with him.
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You make an arguement that:
1. perhaps SS was never meant to be as strong as other tanks.
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If you're talking in terms of raw dps, SS is right in the middle. And yes, it appears that if the devs wanted SS to have stronger attack damage, they would have done it. They already went and boosted damage output in I3 and guess what, SS didn't get more of a boost than anyone else. So yeah, in terms of raw dps I don't think SS was meant to be as strong as some of the other sets.
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2. You have pointed out, several times, in other post that your team should take care of you, when you get into trouble with Rage.
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Uhhh, yes. As a team, doesn't each player have a responsibility to take care of each other, whether Rage is a factor or not? As a tank, I take care of the team by sucking up damage meant for them. An empathy defender takes care of their team by making sure any who needs healing get's it, etc. etc. etc. What's your point?
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3. You state tha perhaps the devs never meant for Rage to be perma.
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I state the devs state that powers like Rage were never meant to be used perma. Again, their words, not mine. Go look up the unstoppable thread. It's all in there.
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For point one. If the Devs have meant for SS to be weaker than the other tanker types, I have never seen a red name post that.
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You're a bit off base, and apparently not looking hard enough. Statesman said in response to the unpermastoppable issue that this was NOT a move by them to make the SS set weaker, it was a move by them to restore BALANCE to the SS set because <drumroll!!> powers like unstoppable were never meant to be used perma, and because people were, their toons were much more powerful than they should have been. And he repeatedly stated that in creating the various tanker lines they strove for BALANCE, not EQUALITY. He freely admitted they are NOT equal, but BALANCED. Go look it up.
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So until they do post it I'm going to be an advocate for getting as much dps for Wobster as I can.
<snip>
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They did. So you can go back to your day job now.
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Point two comes into whether I want to team or not. I stated above that I team about 50 percent of the time. So I do not always have a team to cover my back.
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Again, your point being? If you're playing solo and you're about to get a toggle drop from rage, YOU RUN. Speedy Gonzalez style. Andele! Andele!
The issue with being on a team is that if you're in the middle of a battle and your toggles drop you can't just run off as you'll leave your team vunerable to the mobs. But where most translate this situation into insta-death, I am of a more optimistic mindset in that I believe one's teammates can assist them for 15 friggin seconds till one can get their toggles up again. Understand?
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Point three you talk about them never wanting Rage to be perma. Willy, you and I both know that the devs know darn well what is perma and not perma. <snip>
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Dude, do you even have a day job? I DIDN'T SAY IT, STATESMAN DID.
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Personally I see this change coming down the pike because Unyielding became mobile. <snip>
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It's possible. I summarized that possibility in one of the forums. But it's only speculation. You'd have to ask a dev.
But really, it's sorta irrelevant why, isn't it?
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Well keep fighting for your points Willy and I will keep fighting for mine. Till then see you on the streets of Paragon City.
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Yeah, you're right. It does feel like fighting. And it shouldn't. And frankly, it's wearing me out [masses of whining crybabies lead by Volante and Goldiewhatsherface scream and jump for joy].
All I've been trying to do is get 3 points across to people:
1.) Rage is going to change so that everyone is going to suffer a penalty. Not my idea (although I support it; if some should be able to get around the penalty and others not, that's not fair). Just relaying what the devs said.
2.) That Rage is not meant be used perma, and therefor is not the devs' way of making the SS set "able to keep up" with the other sets, and that anyone who believes this is misinformed.
3.) That before you denouce the new Rage on test you actually go and try using it. Attempt to develop a workable strategy for it. You may actually find that it works well, and although it's not the old Rage, it's still a useful and very usable power.
Sound advice for anyone who cares to listen.