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SS is already the lack luster power to begin with.
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Taking a look at various pnp RPGs, it's like SuperStrength was the first developed powerset. Then with each new powerset they get a little better and better, new tricks, shiny additions.
Think of games like Rifts, Vampire and D&D. The first characters are nowhere near as powerfull or flashy as whatever they bring out in the latest expansion.
Frankly I'm tired of the stress and suspense. Come on Statesman, just kick me in the 'nads and be done with it. Stop feinting.
/em wishes he had a ftf gamimg group so he could go play Amber. Do some real roleplay and character development.
Oh and a new Rule.
Next person who asks the Devs to have a look at ANYTHING in the Tanker archetype. with particular reference to the Invulnerability and SuperStrength lines, gets such a spanking.
If we keep real quiet maybe they'll just forget we're here and we can get back to playing the game.
The funny part about Rage as it is live and as it is on Test is gets more and more useless as the Lvl difficulti is increased. People see Rage as a risk on Hard Boiled missions however as the lvl is increased use of Rage becomes so perilious that only a fool would use it. On invincible settings most opponents will outlast Rage and almost every attack a boss lvl character makes will Stun and unless you pop rage when the Boss has 300hp left (which is a waste) it will always end in your defeat. SO no as is Rage is one of the most useless powers of the SS set due to itself destructive nature.
I have been pretty loyal to the game since it first started. I also spend some time looking over the boards but rarely post anything. This comment on Rage made me want to send a response. I'm an Inv/SS Tanker. Some days, I like coming home and logging on to play solo or with some coworkers. My Tanker's fight style has been drastically altered three times already with each patch. I'm not enjoying the fact that I need to try to change my fighting style everytime the Devs make these major changes. I have spent a lot of time on the Test Server trying to make sure that my toon doesn't get gimped again for the constant changes to the power properties. My advice to the Devs is, at some point, you need to paint a target at the wall and aim for it. Set goals to the powers and do it. Let's stop with these constant changes. I'm really losing interest in what is an excellent game because you guys keep tweaking and changing things. I know I'm not alone on this as many of the people I know, play the game and we all complain about the same thing. You made a great product...please stop gimping the Tankers and let's stick with something. You are driving your market away from your product.
How about leavin it alone ? How about letting me build a character form the ground up without makin drastic changes that change the feel/use of my character to a point where I need a respec ?
I really dont mean to sound rude, but man, gimme a break here.
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasn’t getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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As I've got a INV/SS tanker at low levels, a 0 END drop is horrendous. Not that you haven't heard that already.
But I agree that it should have a penalty that can't be "circumvated" by other powers in the tree.
I'd suggest a penalty to END regen (with maybe a -10 drop at the end like Hasten) to symbolize being "tired" out. Maybe even a small movement penalty too.
Or is that too D&Dish? 
Still here, even after all this time!
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But I agree that it should have a penalty that can't be "circumvated" by other powers in the tree.
I'd suggest a penalty to END regen (with maybe a -10 drop at the end like Hasten) to symbolize being "tired" out. Maybe even a small movement penalty too.
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Just to play Devil's Advocate here, since I don't get why everybody is on this big bandwagon to gimp Tanker endurance even more, should we then put in disadvantages into all powers that enhance the hero.
Let's have Targetting Drone suck endurance like a sieve, Build Up, after it drops, can lower all your attack damage by 50 percent for ten seconds, have Practiced Brawler make you easier to stun after it drops, or make Integration and Instant Heals clicky powers, instead of toggles.
I hope you see what I'm getting at. Rage has a disadvantage and I think it should be left alone or just give the Super Strength set Build Up and be done with it ... these out of the blue changes the devs are looking at it is wearing me down.. Now granted, I don't see the data that the devs do but I never had anybody come up to me and tell me Rage was overpowered. Heck, if I ever was to see a Invuln tanker running around without Unyielding, I would seriously wonder what he/she was smoking and then I would politely inquire as to why he passed over one of the staple powers. I team with a Invuln/Energy tanker on a semi regular basis. Rage is the only thing that allows me to keep up with him period. His damage output is simply just greater than mine, with his multiple hit ability, per attack.
Jahay makes an excellent point.
WHY must Rage even have a drawback?
SS does subpar damage compared to most other Tanker Secondaries.
Energy Melee for example does more damage per attack, compared to SS, PLUS they get a Build Up power and they don't have to sacrifice rediculous amounts of endurance when it expires.
All Rage does, with the exception of increased accuracy while it is running, is increase our damage output so that we are on par or close to the same damage as Energy Melee, Axe, Fire, etc.. But at the COST of having to take yet another power (Rage) and having to run it Perma (1rdx +P Hasten) or 4 rchg rdx's.... then you factor in the disorient that may or may not get you killed when Rage recycles and I think that is more the adequate for the small increase to accuracy.
So again... WHY must Rage have such a significant penalty??
To sum this up:
* Rage damage increase is a wash. All it does is increase our weaker damage output and put us on par with other Tanker Secondaries BUT at the cost of having to run yet another perma power. Therefore, IMO, the damage increase can be factored out!
* Rage accuracy increase is another beast altogether, but gaining an additional 25-33% accuracy at the cost of running one or two perma powers, really worth Disorients or huge endurance crashes? Good lord I think not!
In closing: leave Rage alone or REMOVE the penalties. Rage is an absolute MUST HAVE power if a Super Strength Hero wants to hit as hard as many of the other Tanker Secondaries! Rage DOES NOT overpower SS Tankers or give any significant advantages over other solid hitting Secondaries, with the exception of a modest ToHit Buff. Are we to really believe that ToHit buff is worth the penalties being attached to this power? 
QF
[ QUOTE ]
Jahay makes an excellent point.
WHY must Rage even have a drawback?
SS does subpar damage compared to most other Tanker Secondaries.
Energy Melee for example does more damage per attack, compared to SS, PLUS they get a Build Up power and they don't have to sacrifice rediculous amounts of endurance when it expires.
All Rage does, with the exception of increased accuracy while it is running, is increase our damage output so that we are on par or close to the same damage as Energy Melee, Axe, Fire, etc.. But at the COST of having to take yet another power (Rage) and having to run it Perma (1rdx +P Hasten) or 4 rchg rdx's.... then you factor in the disorient that may or may not get you killed when Rage recycles and I think that is more the adequate for the small increase to accuracy.
So again... WHY must Rage have such a significant penalty??
To sum this up:
* Rage damage increase is a wash. All it does is increase our weaker damage output and put us on par with other Tanker Secondaries BUT at the cost of having to run yet another perma power. Therefore, IMO, the damage increase can be factored out!
* Rage accuracy increase is another beast altogether, but gaining an additional 25-33% accuracy at the cost of running one or two perma powers, really worth Disorients or huge endurance crashes? Good lord I think not!
In closing: leave Rage alone or REMOVE the penalties. Rage is an absolute MUST HAVE power if a Super Strength Hero wants to hit as hard as many of the other Tanker Secondaries! Rage DOES NOT overpower SS Tankers or give any significant advantages over other solid hitting Secondaries, with the exception of a modest ToHit Buff. Are we to really believe that ToHit buff is worth the penalties being attached to this power?
QF
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Hmm... here's a thought. If the devs had wanted SS to hit as hard as the other tanker secondaries THEY WOULD HAVE MADE US HIT AS HARD AS THE OTHER TANKER SECONDARIES.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Now since we can pretty safely assume the devs DON'T want SS attacks to be as powerful as other tanks, how do you think they're gonna like it when you take what they designed to be a limited-use situational power and use it perma so that you CAN have attacks that are as strong, if not stronger than other tanks?
Now stop and think about that. Wait. Think a little longer. Again
(hint: they don't want SS attacks to be as strong as other tank attacks and I'm misusing a power to allow me to do what they don't want and never intended me to do, that is, have attacks that are as strong as other tanks)
Got it? Now try and see if you can figure out why they're changing Rage?
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But I agree that it should have a penalty that can't be "circumvated" by other powers in the tree.
I'd suggest a penalty to END regen (with maybe a -10 drop at the end like Hasten) to symbolize being "tired" out. Maybe even a small movement penalty too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, since I don't get why everybody is on this big bandwagon to gimp Tanker endurance even more, should we then put in disadvantages into all powers that enhance the hero.
Let's have Targetting Drone suck endurance like a sieve, Build Up, after it drops, can lower all your attack damage by 50 percent for ten seconds, have Practiced Brawler make you easier to stun after it drops, or make Integration and Instant Heals clicky powers, instead of toggles.
I hope you see what I'm getting at. Rage has a disadvantage and I think it should be left alone or just give the Super Strength set Build Up and be done with it ... these out of the blue changes the devs are looking at it is wearing me down.. Now granted, I don't see the data that the devs do but I never had anybody come up to me and tell me Rage was overpowered. Heck, if I ever was to see a Invuln tanker running around without Unyielding, I would seriously wonder what he/she was smoking and then I would politely inquire as to why he passed over one of the staple powers. I team with a Invuln/Energy tanker on a semi regular basis. Rage is the only thing that allows me to keep up with him period. His damage output is simply just greater than mine, with his multiple hit ability, per attack.
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Agreed completely and five stars for you. 
The point has already been made multiple times that Geko balanced out the damage of SS taking Rage into account, but lets consider what you've just said anyway.
You are positing the idea that Superstrength damage SHOULD be sub-par, and that this is an INTENTIONAL design element.
Now, please explain to me for what reason WOULD or MUST SS be kept at a sub-par damage level? I'm asking you, WHY would the Devs decide that Super Strength damage must be poor? What possible design reason justifies that?
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
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OK Statesman I don't understand why rage is being considered as overpowered or under penalized. I know it is not just one person on the dev team who thinks this or else it would not be posted here. The Invulnerable Primary pool was adjusted to make it more balanced when compared to the rest of the tanker primaries, now it is being proposed that the Super Strength secondary, which most people consider the prototypical tanker secondary, is overpowered by the use of Rage with a lack of a considerable disadvantage. The fact is that super strength is low on damage output compared to the rest of the tanker secondaries, except maybe Ice, and now it is being considered that the one power we use to mitigate the lack of damage does not have a severe enough penalty to hinder us in our effort to play a super hero. (That maybe a bit out of context but I am a little upset because this will not only affect my build but how I play/roleplay)
I know this is a post for suggestions to make the power/pool more balanced in the eyes of the dev team (or the numbers), but if that is the case don't look at just one power in the pool to make it more balanced. I realize you all have alot of work in codeing and developing and you have to balance new content with changes to exising content to make sure your time constraints are met. That being said looking at one power you consider to be over powered in a certain pool is not the way to balance the pool. Consider for a moment what you intend the overall purpose of the pool to be. I agree rage is an essential part of the pool for concept reasons but as it has been stated if you take away all our endurance when it goes down then it will ensure we loose our toggles and that is not what anyone wants. It will be a detriment to the team as well as the player. If you want to penalize the "hardcore player" for being smarter about how they manages there powers and how they strategizes there attacks change the content as you have done with the increased mission difficulty so that those who want/need more of a challenge can go somewhere to get it. When you propose you are going to balance a power so "hardcore players" cannot out-stripe other "casual players" dont make changes that cause both to be hurt to the point of negating the abilty of the archetype in battle.
I like the new changes to the Invulnerable build, I hated having to use perma unstoppable, but I did because it was the only way for me to get mobile status protection and that is what I wanted my tanker to have. People complemeted me on what a good tanker I was because I chose to make myself mobile instead of just stand there like a brick, so not only did tankers want the mobility but so did everyone else who I ever teamed with. People want to be and play on teams as super heros with other super heros, not old antiquated RPG builds that come from fantasy style RPG's. Well enough of my rants.
The proposals I agree with here are that if you are considering changing the penalties of rage (as evidenced by the changes made on test) don't make it so we loose all our endurance. Since it seems the team has determined it the best alternative to change the power so that endurance is the penalty just don't make it so that we loose all our endurance.
I haven't got "Rage" on any of my characters (yet), but I have to agree with this fellow's suggestion:
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe add an endurance drain similar to when hasten ends? (and lose the stun)?
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Having a "stun" affect after a power drops is a huge penalty - drops toggles. I find with my one hasten-dependent character the endurance penalty really balances things. If I'm not careful, I end up with 0 endurance and my toggles can drop, leaving me vulnerable.... . If I'm careful that doesn't happen - but I might have to leave the fight early.
That's the most fair - endurance penalty. Health penalty can leave you dead, and stun penalty drops toggles which is likely to leave you defenseless and dead. An endurance penalty is something you have to take effort to work around, but isn't unavoidably crippling.
-Q
You know, it's sad that in response to justified complaints and concerns about the viability of an unpopular class (the INVUL/SS tank), developer changes have resulted in nerfs that now have the few remaining ducking their heads and promising to shut-up if they're just left alone.
It may be one way to get your customers to shut up, but it's sad.
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You know, it's sad that in response to justified complaints and concerns about the viability of an unpopular class (the INVUL/SS tank), developer changes have resulted in nerfs that now have the few remaining ducking their heads and promising to shut-up if they're just left alone.
It may be one way to get your customers to shut up, but it's sad.
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nope thats the way you get your customers to leave.
if you start fighting a war with your customers right or wrong the customer always wins becuase they decide what they spend their money on. what ever coh dose they better be careful
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle
I just tried stacking rage's on test. If my rages overlapped, my end did NOT drop at ALL! I had 6 toggles running. I was not attacking at the time. Maybe this change is for the better
Obviously, if I didn't stack them, my end would drop. This (to me) makes it more manageable than the current stun effect.
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I just tried stacking rage's on test. If my rages overlapped, my end did NOT drop at ALL! I had 6 toggles running. I was not attacking at the time. Maybe this change is for the better
Obviously, if I didn't stack them, my end would drop. This (to me) makes it more manageable than the current stun effect.
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I noticed this as well, but I think this was unintentional. The devs will "fix" this just as they did with the Moment of Glory stack.
Rage is doomed unless they leave it alone.
Just tried it again. I ran burn and footstomp to keep my end below half. When the first rage dropped, I had 1/3 of a bar of end left. Rage stacked, then the first rage wore off. NO END DROP!!!! 
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Hmm... here's a thought. If the devs had wanted SS to hit as hard as the other tanker secondaries THEY WOULD HAVE MADE US HIT AS HARD AS THE OTHER TANKER SECONDARIES.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Now since we can pretty safely assume the devs DON'T want SS attacks to be as powerful as other tanks, how do you think they're gonna like it when you take what they designed to be a limited-use situational power and use it perma so that you CAN have attacks that are as strong, if not stronger than other tanks?
Now stop and think about that. Wait. Think a little longer. Again
(hint: they don't want SS attacks to be as strong as other tank attacks and I'm misusing a power to allow me to do what they don't want and never intended me to do, that is, have attacks that are as strong as other tanks)
Got it? Now try and see if you can figure out why they're changing Rage?
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Willy, I have seen several of your post and I know your the advocate of no Perma Rage. You make an arguement that:
1. perhaps SS was never meant to be as strong as other tanks.
2. You have pointed out, several times, in other post that your team should take care of you, when you get into trouble with Rage.
3. You state tha perhaps the devs never meant for Rage to be perma.
For point one. If the Devs have meant for SS to be weaker than the other tanker types, I have never seen a red name post that. So until they do post it I'm going to be an advocate for getting as much dps for Wobster as I can. Why do I want to be able to do a little more damage. Easy, saves me endurance, damage, and time. SS does not get an AOE attack till 38. Footstomp being the top of the mountain for us. So for 38 levels, we have to rely on single target attacks to arrest foes. I hate having to throw that extra punch or jab to finish off that sliver of health left on a mob. One less attack saves me endurance for the next mob, less damage I might take, and time to complete the mission <sidenote: I solo/team about 50/50 wih Wobster>
Point two comes into whether I want to team or not. I stated above that I team about 50 percent of the time. So I do not always have a team to cover my back.
Point three you talk about them never wanting Rage to be perma. Willy, you and I both know that the devs know darn well what is perma and not perma. Yeah I could see something like this:
<Statesman walks into office, sees Geko playing City of Heroes at his desk>
<Statesman>: What character you playing Geko?
<Geko>: Oh it's just a tanker type I play from time to time. Found something funny though. If I have Unyielding on at the same time Rage wears off, funniest thing, I don't get stunned.
<Statesman>: That's ridiculous! We tested that over and over are you sure?
<Geko>: Yup I'm sure. Been spending all morning staring at the screen. It's crazy I know. I also noticed that if you are running Hasten and one recharge enhancer, now you better sit down, it overlaps. I'm not sure, but I think just three recharge enhancers will accomplish that also.
<Statesman>: Well that's just great. Now those pesky super strength tankers will be on par with my Invuln Energy tanker<note this is pure speculation as I do not know what Statesman plays>. Before you know it, those stupid bricks will be wanting to get reduced endurance on their attacks or something.
<CuppaJoe on hearing that last comment ducks behind the watercooler>
<Statesman>: Alright quick, what options do we have?
<Geko>: I ... I ... I don't know Statesman.
<Geko hangs head in shame>
<Suddenly from over the cubicle wall Positron is heard>
<Positron>: Hey! Who put this crappy endurance drop in Unstoppable! It just dropped all my toggles!
<Geko gets an evil grin>: Statesman I have an idea!
<Fade to black>
Personally I see this change coming down the pike because Unyielding became mobile. Before, you had to stand in place and wait out the rage disorient, or you just suffered through it, preferably with no mobs around you. Heck, PvP might even be a part of the equation. Personally I was not one fighting for Unyielding to be mobile. I thought it was an adequate draw back for the power. Though I always thought they should have gave it Acrobatics knockdown resistance, while running.
Well keep fighting for your points Willy and I will keep fighting for mine. Till then see you on the streets of Paragon City.
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The point has already been made multiple times that Geko balanced out the damage of SS taking Rage into account, but lets consider what you've just said anyway.
You are positing the idea that Superstrength damage SHOULD be sub-par, and that this is an INTENTIONAL design element.
Now, please explain to me for what reason WOULD or MUST SS be kept at a sub-par damage level? I'm asking you, WHY would the Devs decide that Super Strength damage must be poor? What possible design reason justifies that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well not being a dev I cannot speak for them. I can only comment about what they have said, done, and otherwised inferred.
1.) I believe if they thought the SS set was somehow lacking due to it's middle-of-the-road damage output amongst other tanker secondaries that they would have changed it. They've had plenty of opportunity, especially since I3 where all tank powers got a boost. They could've just given it to SS, or made SS's bigger. But they didn't.
Conclusion: SS attacks are purposely, by design, and quite intentionally less damaging than other tank secondaries (which btw is true of Ice and Stone, both of which do less dps than SS)
2.) If Rage was, by design, meant (as a gift from Geko) to somehow "balance out" the damage of SS, he sure went really out of his way to do it (btw, does anyone have the link where he actually states this? I wasn't able to find it).
Problem is, there are some real logic issues here. If Geko had intentionally meant for Rage to be run perma or near perma, don't ya think he would have made it that way?
Had Rage been instituted as a toggle power, then I could understand all of the rationale behind the absolutely ludicrious statement "SS tanks need Rage to keep up with the other tanks". Having it as a toggle power would then make this obvious. We click it on, we get damage like an Axe tanker. We click it off, we save end when we don't want damage like an Axe tanker. Clean. Elegant. Effective.
But NO, Rage was NOT designed as a toggle power. Rage was designed as a timed click power with a penalty. Why go through all the programming to design a timed click power with a penalty when a simple toggle power would do the trick? Hell, why go through any of the trouble at all? If they wanted SS tanks to have the damage output of other tanks it would have been far easier for Geko to change our base damage ratios than to create a brand new and unique click penalty power.
Conclusion: The only logical conclusion anyone can draw based upon these simple observations (not to mention the five some-odd times this has been said by Statesman), that click powers with a penalty are situational, and NOT meant to be used perma. When this is done you have effectively pushed your toon outside the established specs the devs developed for your AT. And as any former permaunstoppable tank will tell you, the devs don't like it and the devs will fix it.
3.) In a recent post by Statesman he said that by using mez protection powers to prevent being disoriented when Rage wore off (thereby not suffering the penalty), one had an unfair advantage over others who did not have those mez protection powers, and this was going to also be fixed.
Conclusion: not only do the devs fully intend to have us use Rage in the manner in which they intended (non-perma, situational only), they're going to make sure that EVERYONE who uses it suffers it's penalty.
And I will disagree with you that SS attack power is at a "sub-par damage level" or that the damage is "poor".
First off, how many damage enhancements do you have in your attack powers? Are they SOs? Are they at least your level or higher (white or green)?
Y'see I have an INV/SS tanker. I would not call my damage output "sub par" or "poor" by any stretch of the imagination. At lvl 31 my damage output is easily at or exceeds that of my friend's lvl 30 BS/RE scrapper. And here's the kicker. I don't use perma anything! Never had, never will! I have Rage, and it's not even slotted. I very rarely use it (only when I must in life or death situations)
I use a good ole thing called a damage enhancement. And I use lots of them. Y'see, three of them in one power gives that power double the damage. Rage, on the other hand, only adds 80% of the BASE damage, lasts 2 minutes, and WILL have a penalty.
Conclusion: if you want your SS tank to do lots and lots of damage, add lots and lots of damage enhancements to them. They cost no extra endurance, come with no timer, no penalty, and work around the clock, seven days a week.
But let's do some math.
Let's say that Haymaker has a base damage of 100 hp. Now if I put only one SO enhancement in there Haymaker will do 133 hps. With 3 SO enhancements (2 extra slots) Haymaker will do 200 hps. With 6 SO enhancements, 300 hps.
Now, an unslotted Haymaker on Rage does 180 hp. A single slotted Haymaker, 213 hp (Rage only works against the base damage of 100). A 3 slotted Haymaker, 280 hp. A 6 slotted Haymaker, 380 hp.
Conclusion: adding 3 SO damage enhancements to an attack power (2 additional slots) will give you a greater damage output than will an unslotted attack power with Rage, and only 18 less damage than a single slotted Haymaker with Rage. And this greater damage will work all the time, never expire, and has no penalty.
Conclusion: Rage adds an extra 80% to an attack powers base damage for 2 minutes, with a toggle drop at expiration. Extra damage provided: moderate. Suggested use: highly situational, extreme needs only.
Bottom Line: if you want your SS attacks to do more damage put damage enhancemets in them. The return is far greater with absolutely no cost or penalty.
Rage should only be used in cases of extreme duress, life or death situations, where the modest extra damage it provides could mean the difference between success and debt.
Any questions?
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I just tried stacking rage's on test. If my rages overlapped, my end did NOT drop at ALL! I had 6 toggles running. I was not attacking at the time. Maybe this change is for the better
Obviously, if I didn't stack them, my end would drop. This (to me) makes it more manageable than the current stun effect.
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Sounds like the old Haste trick. Way back at the launch of the game (back when haste needed only 2 SOs to be perma) it wouldn't suck end if you stacked it, because it was technically still up.
EDIT - Hey, Willy, most people already 6-slot their attacks. You seem to forget that people take things like Haste and Rage because it's the equivalent of being able to 7, 8 or 9-slot a power. You can't tell people to add more slots and retain any amount of credulity.
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Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasnt getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman, you guys dropped the pebble in the pond that created this issue in the first place. I mentioned the Rage issue in the Tanker-test boards, and submitted a comment in-game to support, well before I3 became live.
1. Change Rage to Build Up, so it is in line with all the other Tanker 2ndaries.(all other Tank 2ndaries have build up but SS, as you well know).... THEN ...
2. Change BUILD UP across the board for all Tanker AT 2ndaries. Since Tanks don't have a Blasters Aim, Snipe and Alpha strike, a One-Shot Buff power is very situational. Make it Conserve or something that is useful and suitable for a 5th tier (average) Tanker 2ndary power. Doing this would help Tanks as a whole, in more than one way and should not cause any "balance "problems.
a. Players could replace end-redux enhancers with acc or dam, so there would be no need for a "+dam with a crash" power
b. Players would not be compeled, and feel forced to take Stamina at L20 or the Epic Pool with Conserve post L40. this could make selecting Fitness and Epic more optional than absolutely neccessary.
c. I do not believe Conserve can be comprimised by another power, it already exists and any problems and issues with it should now be known.
d. It would aid the Tank AT no matter what flavor.
I knew that Rage was going to be a problem with you when I3 was still in test. It bothers me that you would let it go LIVE before addressing the problem. I hope another free-respec comes with any change too. I also hope that whatever changes are made are throughly considered and tested before they go live. This would be best for the game, the people who run it and the people who play it.
signed..a person who plays the game
((Please add Susie-Bot to the list of "please leave Rage alone" heroes. As has been said, the idea that a "casual" player would not have Unyielding is daft...no one can survive that far into the game without some status protection.
Secondly: lay off the endurance penalties. As it is, with stamina 5-slotted, I already spend a significant amount of time sitting around, staring at walls, waiting for my endurance to come back. I've been down this road before (with the same character -- SB's been around for a while), and before the endurance adjustment on attacks, I had stopped playing Susie-Bot altogether. I just got tired of spending all my time watching a little blue bar creep back up.
I'm beginning to believe that this is all a conspiracy to make everyone roll Regen scrappers. I mean, seriously, who are they sleeping with?))
I'm not sure I understand why Rage needs to be changed.
Before I3, I tended to use Rage only in tight spots: in a big battle with mezzing/holding foes, I'd plant myself with US, provoke up a big swarm of bad guys, hit Rage, and go to town on them. If the fight went on too long, stacked stuns/mezzes sometimes got through when Rage dropped, and I was vulnerable for a few seconds.
I almost never died because of this. Maybe once or twice. Sure I often came close, but I almost always snapped out of stun in time to hit DP and get my defs back up. My secret? I've slotted RPD 6, REl 5, REn 5, and Tough Hide (aka P90210 or whatever) 2 times. As a result, I'm really hard to kill, even without toggles. This protection came at a cost: I spent slots that could have gone to other powers. I chose to sacrifice offense for defense.
That's a choice every tank makes to some extent. Do you skip Resist Elements so you can get another attack and slot that up? There's no wrong answer. With (say) Footstomp, you'll ultimately kill fatser than me (I only have 4 attacks, and only 3 are slotted), but I might live through some fights that would kill you. Seems it all evens out in the end: you get xp faster, I get less debt.
Anyway, with the new version of Unyielding on Live, I still haven't been stunned by Rage when I had UY up, but now I can use Rage more often. I run around with UY and when Rage wears off, I know there's a window of time where I'm more likely to get mezzed. It's riskier, but it's no big deal. If there are too many mezzing foes, I just use Rage less often. I still get to use it more than pre-I3, and there's still a drawback to it. What's not to love?
Granted, it must be more of a pain to use Rage before UY is up to its full status protection, but that just puts you in the same boat with all those inv tanks that never took US before I3. Heck, I had US and still used Rage without it. Sometimes you needed to be mobile, and you just had to hope the fight would end before you went dizzy. It's a game: there should be some risk to it. Otherwise, what's the fun part?
I don't like the proposed End drop for Rage, because I can't protect myself from it. Yeah, I can have a CaB ready, but my toggles WILL drop for sure. Granted, I'll probably get them back up without dying (thanks passive defenses!), but it's guaranteed to happen. With the stun effect and UY, there's a decent chance I can get through it without any side effects, but there's always some risk. I like it that way: Rage has some risk, but Unstop has a definite drawback. Why give us 2 powers that have major penalities? Isn't one major and 1 minor penalty enough?
Well, reading all of these posts I think my concerns have been voiced. Rage will disorient you when you get hit with one more stun after it drops, you get a defense penalty now on live when it drops, etc.
I'm also getting tired of surprises like this, especially since I've just used my free respec. I did a respec trial just to get out of Unstoppable because I hated the crash -- it wasn't worth the benefits. Now Rage will be in that same category. When US became just Unyielding, Rage finally became a viable power. You didn't lose precious gaming time waiting out the disorient.
100% end drop is an insanely high drop for a 7th power in a set, especially in a set like SS which does low damage of the most resisted type of damage (smashing). Something should compensate for that low damage, and Rage *was* it. A mild end drop similar to Hasten, combined with the current -DEF and potential for stuns is sufficient to make you think carefully.
Personally, I don't think any tank that gets to 28 with SS as their offense can be considered 'casual'. There's just too much time required to get to that level with that set. If you can't learn to read combat warnings by that point the only way to balance anything will be to prevent certain powers from going off in disadvantageous circumstances. Sort of a kiddie mode that prevents them from harming themselves.
For reference my main character is a level 48 inv/ss tank. I dealt with the inv changes but that was by using my free respec. If you make major death-dealing changes to our powers you have to give us another respec, otherwise you remove the joy from our characters.
Edit: Even with Rage, SS tankers get through encounters slower than everybody except Mind Controllers or Defenders who focused on their primaries or power pools. Also a little situational analysis of the effects of a tanker dropping to no end, no toggles:
Alone: Flee, no harm done unless you were low health and get hit by that punch from 100 ft away (thrown as you fled.)
Duo: Partner screwed as remaining thugs latch onto them as tanker dies or gets enough distance to trigger toggles.
Team: Tanker again leaves others hanging my being compromised in health and/or having to leave their position in the crowd.
So it seems that this change, if published to live servers, would introduce a dynamic that made SS tanks a liability to others, especially in smaller groups where their damage output was needed. It could re-establish SS tanks as taunt bots who might occaisionally deliver a finishing blow.
Find a different penalty if you must, but IMO it already is risky enough. 100% end drop should never go in on anything except perhaps a massive damage AoE power. Definitely not for an AT meant to be surrounded by enemies taking shots to keep others safe.
Crey Threat Assessments: Proletarian & Shoe