Hey heres a great idea:
How about just leaving it alone since SS powers cost an unreasonable amount of endurance as it is.
How about letting SS tankers have some fun with a high end melee power.
Dont the other tanker melee sets have damage buffing abilitys with *no* drawback?
Energy Melee and Fire Melee come to mind.
How about "balancing" the pool powers to be a little less important to builds instead.
Casual or hardcore aside..Unyeilding as it stands cancels the rage disorient unless you lose end and your toggles drop, which happens often , even more often if you dont buy stamina or conserve power.
One of either is already integral to buy unless you want to /brawl /jab /punch til level 50 just to conserve enough end to keep your toggles powered..especially for boss fights.
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Megaton Max 42 INV/SS Tanker -Virtue
I just got Rage and I can understand now why some want to reduce it's effectiveness. For the first time in hundreds of hours I actually represent an offensive threat. Wow.
I admit I'm shocked how effective it is. I don't think it matters so much if it's Perma.
Simple 'tweaks' to keep it similar but keep some of the balance on the Tanker...
Hasten's End cost is at the End of the power - when you're most likely to be low. Put Rage's at the end as well. If the PLAYER isn't careful, that's their problem...
Second, I rather liked the minor self Defense debuff (as an idea) for Unyeilding. You stand there and shrug it off, right. When you're in Rage...
"GGRRRRR!!! I don't care if you hit me! Feel the Fury of the Huscarl!!!"
Call if 15 End at the End and 5% (self) Defense DeBuff. 'Nuff said.
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You're a bit off base, and apparently not looking hard enough. Statesman said in response to the unpermastoppable issue that this was NOT a move by them to make the SS set weaker, it was a move by them to restore BALANCE to the SS set because <drumroll!!> powers like unstoppable were never meant to be used perma, and because people were, their toons were much more powerful than they should have been.
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Oh you forgot your <rimshot>. I think you might want to go back and read that thread again. It dealt with players dropping a majority of their powers and just keeping unstoppable. Super Strength was not addressed as being unbalanced. It was Invuln tankers that was being looked at. Granted lots of folks have Invuln / Super Strength tankers.
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I've seen a couple people discussing this and though I do not feel the burden of proof since I didn't start this conversation in the first place, I feel a burden because my memory is pretty good on this subject. (Statesman posts only date back to 1/10 when I searched by his name, so anything he said is gone on this subject. If someone can find it please share the link.)
Statesman specified that Unstoppable should not be an unending supply of endurance for little risk. And that it made most other powers in the set obsolete. He felt it gave a clear advantage to Invul over other sets because of the endurance and the awesome amount of damage resistance it provided. He also admitted that Invul changes "brought us in line" with the rest of the tanks and scraps. (whether you agree or disagree with the changes, it doesn't matter. That is what he said and I hope he posts here and corrects me if I'm wrong but I do remember fairly clearly)
He never said click powers were not meant to be perma. He only specified Unstoppable as never meant to be perma.
Unstoppable was changed in a way that I did not agree with but I don't think the way it was changed should justify similar changes to Rage.
The first poster quoted above .. and I quote "...Statesman said in response to the unpermastoppable issue that this was NOT a move by them to make the SS set weaker, it was a move by them to restore BALANCE to the SS set..."
As I recall, Statesman made no mention of Unstoppable being an SS related situation. No matter what your secondary, Unstoppable provided extreme protection and nice endurance production. In fact, having Unyielding be able to cover one's stun needs when Rage goes off is actually a counter to that belief. (even though I realize it makes Rage a little more dangerous since we have toggles to deal with these days)
Now to my opinion. Ultimately the endurance issue and the near bullet proof status protection is what was taken away with the change to Unstoppable. This trickled down to slowing damage output as a result of slotting more end reduction and/or running toggles.
It is nothing less or nothing more than that. I did not like how it was handled. I believe it was a suprise change and a build breaker for a good number of people (scrappers and tankers). However, I won't agree that Statesman ever said that all click powers should be changed and I don't think it is appropriate to stir that kind of support to unperma click powers across the board based on claims of what Statesman said that can't be proven because forum server cleaning erased them.
To jazonz
I see what you are saying I would reply more indepth but i am kinda winded since i got my new job (I wanna play CoH not spend the rest of the day making an Adequete post). I will be better and more descriptive on the weekends.
I think I am lucky I never built my tank to revolve around Invincibilty or Unstoppable which yes i do have different ideas. The main issues I have with Unstop is its supposed to be the penultimate power yet you have groups like Malta that can Stun you out of Unstoppable. We tanks stay quiet way too ofter because for most ATs damage is Damage. The big problem is the higher lvl you get the more prevelent Psionics becomes. The truth is Invul Tanks are still good after I3 but I do not think Psionics should be so Prevelant. I think some of the High Lvl Villian groups need to be retooled and I do not mind if say for example a Stone Tank is better for fighting against a certain Villian Group while an Invul is better against another.
For Rage I think its penalty needs to be reduced but I do not think it it should lose its bonus to accuracy and damage. Rage should stay the same in its gains but drop the stun penalty. I will state i do not mind losing Perma status for Rage. It should not be that big of a deal that when rage drops you might have to wait an addition 8-10 seconds to pop it again. Perma status can be cheese in all honesty and I think many players should look to Viable solutions other then heavily rely on Perma powers. I do not rely on Perma Powers infact I think Dull Pain Sucks a Perma power and I preferred slotting it with Health Enhancers(I healed so fast with 6 health enhancers that I was not noticing damage).
I actaully thought about how Rage could actaully take Hitpoints away from us as penalty aka Energy Transfer but a little more stiff.
We tanks sit back and let the Dev "nerf" us and all we say is "This underated and Useless power is okay it does not need change" . For example we won a major victory with Invincibility (Invince need to be toned down) as we complained about the I3 change and now we are getting a better revamped Invincibilty. I think we should complain more about how SS should have lessened End Cost and how powers like Hurl should be changed as Hurl is useless aswell (maybe Increased Base Range and Damage?). SS needs a lot of changes and we need to stop being quite and tell the devs we want a balanced SS.
As for the idea of no Change....There will be new Issues that will change us anyway. Like it or not I3 was good in many ways as it gave us combined Toggles and a better Unyielding (A tank could always get stunned out of Invincible and Unyielding Stance Sucked). I will gladly pay the price of having to manage my Endurance if my Health is not a concern.
Yay... we're not on the chopping block again!
Just in the crosshairs...
The total end drain went live.
total end drain for what?
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The total end drain went live.
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Are you serious?!?!
The total end drain for rage that Statesman agreed was too much and said he'd be looking into other options went LIVE?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I really hope that was some kind of mistake that'll be fixed soon.
I was just on live and ran rage a couple of times and it looks like it's only a 90 to 95% drop in end, not 100. This is something that I can live with as an Invul/SS tank. It allows me to keep my teammates alive if I watch what I am doing and keep trak of time(now if I could only wear a watch that won't clash with my tights). Anyways, I thought I would post this, if any one else has different resault, let us know please.
....And thank you for you surport.
I believe what you're seeing is the effect of having 6-slotted stamina; you're recovering endurance almost immediately.
If you hover your cursor over your end bar when Rage drops, it goes to 0.
The end result is the same: total toggle drop.
as a ss tanker i do not agree with the changes to rage. Rage already had a def penalty and most ss tankers are invul build. the prob with this is that if in a heated battle your unstop wears off and if not timed right rage wear off at same time or soon after , this equals dead tanker. the rages def penalty on top of Uy which already has a def penaly make you easier to hit and i get stunned frequently dieing many times in battle. i thought that was bad enough but now al toggles being turned off in the middle of battle with a tank that now has an auto hit taunt makes no sense to me, not at all the characteristic of a tank. Rage does not put out the kind of dam that causes for suck a penalty. at the same time rage is very need for ss build because you can not finish a fight before running out of end with out it. SS is low moderat at best. there are already enough contradictions with tanker powers as is ie: Uy -lowers def when it is usually run with invincible which is supposed to increase def . just my thoughts. when im a tank i wanna be just that not a stunned big guy with alot of hp that dont mean anything when your higher lvl and have mobs around you.
qq
That makes two useless powers Inv/SS Tankers have to suffer (Unstoppable/Rage)
I would be interested to here what Statesman has to say after he said they where pulling this change......
That it went live after Statesman agreed it was too much: Bad.
The likelihood that it will remain this way: Low.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Well considering the boards were down all day, there was no way to inform folks as to why Rage went live as is. I would guess that this is a minor fix and there was no reason to hold the patch off. Well, here's hoping to see the other proposed fix soon.
Heh, soon as I saw what my Rage was doing to me last night, I didn't use it one more time for the rest of the night.
/sarcasm on
Good thing you asked for our input before putting things on the live server, Statesman!
/sarcasm off
When there are core changes to a power, why are they so often drastic when a power gets adjusted, even on Test?
If balance is a delicate, difficult to achieve goal (i.e. an Egg), you may want to try something other than BIG Stone Mallet and REALLY BIG Stone Mallet when working on it.
Regen: Is the goal to see if the Regen Scrapper dies in 2 seconds or 3 seconds with exclusive Instant Heal/Integration?
With Rage, is the goal to make it a never used power? I can't use it in a group where I'm actually tanking larger groups AS A TEAM (your goal) b/c I'll go down and see the rest of the TEAM soon follow. Now, Soloing, the groups are smaller and I can use Rage far more often.
Funny - a change that's better for soloers than for TEAM PLAY?
Huscarl (who's looking forward to an in-between solution but fast)
Of all ways to hit the Invuln Tanker - Hit his already precious Endurance? This change was ridiculous, and against what Statesman said earlier, isn't it? Rage is now useless to me and I can't foresee using it again until the Devs fix this... again. These higher level powers should be USEFUL, shouldn't they? The Devs made all these noises about improving the Tanker but all I can see is them ripping the Inv/SS Tanker to shreds so far. 
Now I officially have 2 chrs that have a total endurance wipe that pretty much say "turn your head and cough this is routine exam". 
The difference between my MA/SR and my SS/Inv is my tanker is expected to be in combat the whole battle. A tanker having to run to restart his defenses seems to be defeating the idea of the archtype where they are the last to run covering allies.
Likely there will be a short patch with a few changes. A rough time to be a SS/Inv though. Though why you would change something to something you have to fix it is beyond my understanding.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
I personally find two aspects of this whole "rage issue" particularly offensive.
1.) That it was released, even though it was deemed "too harsh". As has been said, it's been a banner month for Inv/SS Tankers.
2.) The soft-shoeing around the issue. This is a Nerf, okay? It wasn't "re-balanced to help non-hardcore players". It certainly wasn't to help the Super-Strength Tankers out there. It was a nerf, so call it a nerf. Come on the boards and say "Hey, we think Rage is over-powered, so we're nerfing it."
I guess I've just found this whole process -- the short time frame, the "patching anyway", the lack of creative solutions, and the mealy-mouthing -- insulting. I'm normally not this crabby about patches -- I mean, I loved the I3 changes. Err, once I got my respec.
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Poster: ClearNinja2000
Subject: Re: Changes to Rage
I personally find two aspects of this whole "rage issue" particularly offensive.
1.) That it was released, even though it was deemed "too harsh". As has been said, it's been a banner month for Inv/SS Tankers.
2.) The soft-shoeing around the issue. This is a Nerf, okay? It wasn't "re-balanced to help non-hardcore players". It certainly wasn't to help the Super-Strength Tankers out there. It was a nerf, so call it a nerf. Come on the boards and say "Hey, we think Rage is over-powered, so we're nerfing it."
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Gotta agree. A Tanker is a guy/girl that is sudposed to be beat on by damn near everything. Give them a power that leaves them nearly no defense and no ability to attack. Well only the nutcases will use it or guys using tankers as scrappers like me.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
Last night I got on my level 38 Invul/S.Str Tank and wow, Rage sucks. I dont feel the damage bonus it gives is anywhere near adequate for the powers penalty of draining all your endurance and lowering your defense (shuts down all your toggle powers in the process and gives an aditional defense penalty)
When I used rage I have never felt like the "Berserker" it claims to make you, but at least it wasnt a horrible power.
What the power needs: A greater damage increase, increased endurance regeneration, a haste effect for increased attacks, and a longer recharge time (its far to easy to make permanent as it is)
All this will make its penalties an acceptable risk and make you feel like a Berserker while useing the power and not just after the power has worn off.
Jack is turning out to be quite the used car salesman. Being intentionally "cryptic" is cute, bald-faced lying is not. Can anything this guy posts be trusted?
I wouldn't panic just yet. It sucks totally, I agree, but I think he got caught in the logisitics. I imagine they have to merge patches from Test to Live wholesale, and any chances to Test (even database changes to power effects) have to go through an approval process so they're not instantaneous.
I figure the gutted form of Rage went live mostly because it was bundled with some long-suffering fixes (see: Stone Armor, Dark Armor) and there was no time for the approval process to fix it back. They may also not want to fix it back until they have an alternate solution.
Said alternate solution needs to come ASAP tho. Seems like a lot of SS Tankers (esp. the Inv/SS kind) are understandably very nervous now...
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Said alternate solution needs to come ASAP tho. Seems like a lot of SS Tankers (esp. the Inv/SS kind) are understandably very nervous now...
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Not only am I a INV/SS tanker, I also have an earth controller and now Jack is turning his "how can i help?" attention to controllers. *shudders*
Im really trying to be understanding about all the changes that are being made to Invulnerability and Super Strength but this is two gut punches in a row and in a very short space of time and again without any warning that it was going to go to live, i sincerely hope the change going to live was a genuine mistake and will certainly accept that if its the case.
if its not a mistake then it really does make me wonder yet again if we are just being given the illusion that what we say is taken into account here rather than a reality.
either way you slice it, if rage does drop my toggles when it goes down then im going to have to respec yet again and lose yet another one of my set powers (already dropped unstoppable)
anyway statesy my man ill give you the benefit of the doubt here and i look forward to what you have to say on the matter.
regards
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I am neither for nor against perma rage. I don't care one way or the other really. How one person builds their toon is up to them. But the Devs on the other hand have repeatedly said, over and over, that click powers with penalties are NOT meant to be perma. They are situational only. This is one (of a few) reasons why permaunstoppable is now nonpermaunstoppable.
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Oh that's right ... that's why MOG and Elude can be made perma status. Unstoppable was made the way it was because people were respeccing out Temp Invuln, Unyielding, Resist Physical, Resist Energy, and Resist Elements. Heck some were even opting to leave tough hide out of the build, since Invincibility covered them.
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If you're talking in terms of raw dps, SS is right in the middle. And yes, it appears that if the devs wanted SS to have stronger attack damage, they would have done it. They already went and boosted damage output in I3 and guess what, SS didn't get more of a boost than anyone else. So yeah, in terms of raw dps I don't think SS was meant to be as strong as some of the other sets.
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Uhhh, yes. As a team, doesn't each player have a responsibility to take care of each other, whether Rage is a factor or not? As a tank, I take care of the team by sucking up damage meant for them. An empathy defender takes care of their team by making sure any who needs healing get's it, etc. etc. etc. What's your point?
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No arguement here ... I was just pointing out that some folks like to solo. I myself do it about 50 percent of the time. Personally the original testing of 100 percent endurance drop seemed much more dangerous in team situations than solo.
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I state the devs state that powers like Rage were never meant to be used perma. Again, their words, not mine. Go look up the unstoppable thread. It's all in there.
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Well since you make the claim ... I'll let you provide the burden of proof. I followed the Unstoppable thread a great deal. I don't remember Statesman, or any other red name, saying Rage was not working as intended in there.
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You're a bit off base, and apparently not looking hard enough. Statesman said in response to the unpermastoppable issue that this was NOT a move by them to make the SS set weaker, it was a move by them to restore BALANCE to the SS set because <drumroll!!> powers like unstoppable were never meant to be used perma, and because people were, their toons were much more powerful than they should have been.
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Oh you forgot your <rimshot>. I think you might want to go back and read that thread again. It dealt with players dropping a majority of their powers and just keeping unstoppable. Super Strength was not addressed as being unbalanced. It was Invuln tankers that was being looked at. Granted lots of folks have Invuln / Super Strength tankers.
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And he repeatedly stated that in creating the various tanker lines they strove for BALANCE, not EQUALITY. He freely admitted they are NOT equal, but BALANCED. Go look it up.
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No arguement here ... I agree with you about him wanting balance.
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So until they do post it I'm going to be an advocate for getting as much dps for Wobster as I can.
<snip>
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They did. So you can go back to your day job now.
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Well I'll need you to get some quotes for me on that ... or is your day job getting in the way
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Again, your point being? If you're playing solo and you're about to get a toggle drop from rage, YOU RUN. Speedy Gonzalez style. Andele! Andele!
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Well I don't have super speed for Wobster and neither do I want it ... so it would be more of a high jump ... ceiling height allowing.
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The issue with being on a team is that if you're in the middle of a battle and your toggles drop you can't just run off as you'll leave your team vunerable to the mobs. But where most translate this situation into insta-death, I am of a more optimistic mindset in that I believe one's teammates can assist them for 15 friggin seconds till one can get their toggles up again. Understand?
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Never disagreed with you that a team should not have your back. I have had my bacon in the fire and save people's bacon many times over in this game.
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Dude, do you even have a day job? I DIDN'T SAY IT, STATESMAN DID.
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And again I'll have to ask you for the quote please ... as I didn't make that the foundation of my arguement.
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Yeah, you're right. It does feel like fighting. And it shouldn't. And frankly, it's wearing me out [masses of whining crybabies lead by Volante and Goldiewhatsherface scream and jump for joy].
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People expressing their displeasure is just that. I really don't care how people let out their distaste for things. If they do it in a very negative way, it only hurts their arguement.
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All I've been trying to do is get 3 points across to people:
1.) Rage is going to change so that everyone is going to suffer a penalty. Not my idea (although I support it; if some should be able to get around the penalty and others not, that's not fair). Just relaying what the devs said.
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Well it may or may not change ... that is yet to be seen. I will agree with you though that it probably will be modified though.
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2.) That Rage is not meant be used perma, and therefor is not the devs' way of making the SS set "able to keep up" with the other sets, and that anyone who believes this is misinformed.
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I never was privvy to the forum discussion on rage with Geko ... so I can't answer that for you. Some folks say they were. Since the board got cleaned up a little while back, I can't go back and look. You would not have the quotes disprove people that make that claim would you?
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3.) That before you denouce the new Rage on test you actually go and try using it. Attempt to develop a workable strategy for it. You may actually find that it works well, and although it's not the old Rage, it's still a useful and very usable power.
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Tested it, didn't like it, and I'll fight to make sure it doesn't happen, as Stan Lee would say "Nuff Said". All going well, it looks like the 100 percent endurance drop has been averted. If Rage was to be released with a 100 percent endurance drop, which does not look to be the case now, I would see it becoming extremely situational. So situational, that it falls on the verge of useless. What good is a power if you only use it 1 percent of the time. Rage does not make Wobster into a killing machine. It simply helps him to put out a little more damage and help improve his accuracy. Once again, those darn single target attacks keep getting in the way. Oh well, I'll have to wait till Footstomp. I really doubt you would see Rage turn the tide of battle in a group fight. After all that is why you have teammates right, make up for our shortcomings?