sorry, but the low end (1-20) is NOT fun now.
By
7onTest,
Posted on: 2004-09-22 06:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I like the IDEAS behind making missions stronger, but between the fact that there are alot more baddies in missions, that the low end mob got a great boos in powers (nothing like a lvl 8 baddy with lvl 18-36 powers, and crowd control befor you even get a defense for it) that minions are harder to hit now just makes lvls 1-20 feel like WORK not play. Things need to be looked at. With no pvp, no economy, litle to no items, no bases to build starting a new character was mostly my only way to escape the grind of my high lvl character. Now thats not fun either.
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I don't see how low lvls are fun to begin with, before or after patch.
You got no stamina, no perma hasten, only a couple of attacks, no good defenses, no travel powers low lvls. How is it fun? Its damn frustrating, and I personally don't think this new patch made too much difference in terms of difficulty. If you don't like doing missions, that's fine just skip them, they are not required to level up so you don't have to do them to advance. Besides, most missions are tedious and long anyways and even with exp boost to missions other forms of exp via grouping, tf, or solo street clearing still nets you more exp.
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Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?
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Sometimes people are never happy. You're doing a great job. It is clear that you are working on the problem and the only responsible thing to do is to test it (which you are doing) to prevent more problems. I firmly believe Cryptic is doing the best they can with the varying issues and I must add that I have NEVER encountered a software company that cared for its customers the way you guys do. A1 job and looking forward to the fixes.
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Kudos to you Stateman. The fat little kiddies will whine, but that's because Mommy has always given them candy and Nintendo instead of discipline. Thanks for, yet again, telling us the +1 mobs weren't on purpose. You'd think after personally posting it like 8-10 times they'd finally get it. You'd think.
Dwimble
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I got it that it wasn't on purpose when he posted the first time and I understand that, mistakes can happen, especially with a patch as big as this one. but Cryptic always tries to fix thier mistake, it just takes some time with some bugs.
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I like the IDEAS behind making missions stronger, but between the fact that there are alot more baddies in missions, that the low end mob got a great boos in powers (nothing like a lvl 8 baddy with lvl 18-36 powers, and crowd control befor you even get a defense for it) that minions are harder to hit now just makes lvls 1-20 feel like WORK not play. Things need to be looked at. With no pvp, no economy, litle to no items, no bases to build starting a new character was mostly my only way to escape the grind of my high lvl character. Now thats not fun either.
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I don't see how low lvls are fun to begin with, before or after patch.
You got no stamina, no perma hasten, only a couple of attacks, no good defenses, no travel powers low lvls. How is it fun? Its damn frustrating, and I personally don't think this new patch made too much difference in terms of difficulty. If you don't like doing missions, that's fine just skip them, they are not required to level up so you don't have to do them to advance. Besides, most missions are tedious and long anyways and even with exp boost to missions other forms of exp via grouping, tf, or solo street clearing still nets you more exp.
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low levels can be fun if you want to have fun 
and yea you don't get travel powers until at least 14, however yoiu can pick up hasten at lvl 6. This situation is the same with EVERYBODY with no exceptions (except those who have thier lowbies powerlevelled).
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Greetings:
Pre post issue 2, if you went into a mission (at least from my experience) the moment you got it at the lowest level you could get it, it was common to run into +1 minions and LT, and a +1 to +2 boss (note singular boss).
What members of our SG and I have been finding out is that now (for all levels at least to level 29 highest level of our SG) is that all missions now have anywhere from +0 to +2 minions and LTs, but the largest change is the number of LT and bosses.
I truly love the content changes in issue 2, and the graphic / sound enhancements are awesome.
But, the addition of more bosses and LTs, are making leveling go from it is already a grind at times to it is now insane to have fun and level.
Thank you.
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Higher number of lts and above = more exp, which is supposed to make mission exp more enticing. Otherwise no one higher than lvl 20 would be in their right mind to do missions for exp outside portal missions with lots of anchors.
And btw I built a dark/dark defender other day and lvled him to 7 below 2 hours, doing the missions as well as killing stuff on the way to them, so I haven't seen what is so difficult that you guys gripe about.
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I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.
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Hmmm. So the fact that we've....
1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations
Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?
I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).
Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.
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Stateman, im confused about something with tihs "plethora of +1s" bug.
what exactly is the bug? and what exactly is the fix?
im nott being a smart [censored] here. i can see how what i asked could be seen as sarcasm. im seriously confused.
is the bug that TOO MANY missions mobs are spawning as +1?
(meaning the fix will be to tweak down the overzealos spawning subroutine)
or is the bug the fact that there are ANY +1s mobs in mission?
(meaning once the fix goes in we wont see any +1s anymore)
was the way missions were spawning in Update 2 when it was on the Test Server the way it should be on Live, now . . . or was it bugged then (becuase, honestly, i thought it was, and still, is awesome).
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Statesman, I believe your intentions are noble. However, high level minions do not appear to be alone in being blessed with new powers. Outcast minions now use Fire and Ice attacks and use heal other. If this stands it's going to promote more solo play where these minions are involved. More teammates equals more minions with Fire Bolt and Ice Blast, and more importantly Heal Other. This is dramatically more difficult to handle, especially considering low level heroes are the ones being called upon to handle them.
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I think giving the low-level minions some blasts was great. I haven't noticed them being particularly much more difficult than before, and that's coming from a blaster and controller with glass jaws (the characters I've been playing most since Update 2 was released). I still don't think those blasts do as much damage as the bats and other melee junk we're all used to trying to avoid at all costs. I like it because you can't just hover up out of reach and yawn over their pee-shooter pistols anymore. More thought and strategy is required, which in my opinion equals more fun.
Dwimble
Actually, I like the outcasts having ranged attacks that have umph now. Also, the only Outcasts I have seen using Heal Other are the Shocker Lts. Maybe I missed it, but they are the only ones I have seem. As for being forced to solo them: well, yeah, the frequency of Lts and Bosses is less with fewer teammates. But that has been true before the patch as well.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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I think more is being done to boost the casual players experience who does missions than not.
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I thought so too, and I was pretty excited about the XP increase
for missions.
But the XP increase versus the new "challenges" in the game
equals very little net gain.
It boils down to the bottom half of the game being nothing but
an empty grind with the last power really coming at 32 with the
rest mostly being filler.
I just do not enjoy the direction the game has taken and I need
more complexity if I have to be subjected to a grind, my grinding
has to accomplish something.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
CoH is the first of it's kind in a crossover generation of games
that mix fast paced elements of action games with the character
advancement of an MMORPG.
But that's also it's big fault for people like me.
I used to (and sometimes still do) compete in FPS games, so the
action part of CoH for me is only so-so.
In the same vein I have played more than a couple MMORPGS,
so the simplistic combat-only environment of CoH is pretty
empty for me.
The way the game used to play, I enjoyed fast paced and
superheroic action in a nice looking high poly environment
(something we don't really get in the FPS world yet) with
mmorpg advancement of my characters.
I don't find that to be the case any longer with the changes that
have been made in the last few months, my characters do not
feel "heroic" in any sense of the word, except when my girlfriend
and I do drive by heals..
And that can only carry the game so far.
Finally, at the behest of Garriott et al/NCsoft I think Statesman
will, if not sooner then later, turn CoH into EQ in capes and
tights.
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Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.
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Thankyou, that'll put an end to my grumpy posting on the other thread - still think it's a mistake, but I appreciate the candor.
There are still two changes that make things harder at the lower levels. First, the wandering patrols. Great once you've got your powers working and know what you're doing, but deadly in the very low end game (below 10th)
Second, the outcast as a low level group have problems. You've made every minion a blaster, the torches use the power that the hellion bosses use. Being out of melee range isn't safe when dealing with the outcasts. Frankly, the trolls should have been routed from the Hollows within a day of the battle starting, they're wimps compared to the outcast. With this as theoretically a 5-15 level zone, that's problematic.
If the minions only had elemental melee attacks (like the icy hands and earth hands that they do have), that would be keeping within the same danger level while keeping the elemental theme.
Also, the Hollows is HUGE, and the second contact (Flux) is deep inside the hollows accross a chasm. Not fun without travel powers, particularly given how many villain groups you have to get past and (see above) how many of them are blasters so you don't even have to get within melee distance.
I have no doubt you didn't intend to make it harder. But I do think you lost sight of what it's like to be a starting character, particularly a new player who is still learning what all's going on.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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I like the IDEAS behind making missions stronger, but between the fact that there are alot more baddies in missions, that the low end mob got a great boos in powers (nothing like a lvl 8 baddy with lvl 18-36 powers, and crowd control befor you even get a defense for it) that minions are harder to hit now just makes lvls 1-20 feel like WORK not play. Things need to be looked at. With no pvp, no economy, litle to no items, no bases to build starting a new character was mostly my only way to escape the grind of my high lvl character. Now thats not fun either.
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I don't see how low lvls are fun to begin with, before or after patch.
You got no stamina, no perma hasten, only a couple of attacks, no good defenses, no travel powers low lvls. How is it fun? Its damn frustrating, and I personally don't think this new patch made too much difference in terms of difficulty. If you don't like doing missions, that's fine just skip them, they are not required to level up so you don't have to do them to advance. Besides, most missions are tedious and long anyways and even with exp boost to missions other forms of exp via grouping, tf, or solo street clearing still nets you more exp.
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low levels can be fun if you want to have fun and yea you don't get travel powers until at least 14, however yoiu can pick up hasten at lvl 6. This situation is the same with EVERYBODY with no exceptions (except those who have thier lowbies powerlevelled).
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Hasten = nearly useless unless you 6 slot it with SOs at lvl 22. Before that its more of a situation burst dmg buff that you use to survive a tough fight better.
And yes, I try and get Pl'ed with my lowbie when I can, simply because I want to at least get past the tedious pre-travel lvls because i'm too used to ss/sj. It's a preference thing. Seriously though most missions are overly tedious not in terms of difficulty, but just in terms of the time it takes to complete it. Have you ever done a mission with 5 bombs to defuse, 5 hostages to save, kill all mobs in mission, and the mission's an office building with 4 floors? It takes way too long to actually be even acceptable exp, even after the boost.
Btw in response to those that gripe about boosted outcasts and etc, why don't you just not fight them? Skyway is an nice alternative where nothing shoots elemental and all you gotta do is stay out of melee range to not get stunned. My scrapper avoided them totally and just fought in skyway till I was high enough for boomtown, where I avoided outcasts again and went for trolls/lost. I don't see the difficulty, maybe we have different standards.
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I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.
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Hmmm. So the fact that we've....
1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations
Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?
I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).
Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.
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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.
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Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?
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Pffftt..
Thats funny, those are re-actions to a huge outcry.
I don't think they represent your intentions one bit.
But I'm glad I got under your skin enough to make you defend
yourself again..
Maybe next time you will listen to the players on test...
Unlikely but I won't be around to see it anyway.
Oh and BTW, I hit the forum title cap.. Ya better ban me and
nerf the forums...
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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.
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It is a bug. Petition away - though we're working on a fix.
Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.
These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.
The wandering patrols i don't mind, they just make you think on your feet and plan ahead.
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First, please check your facts, the post I replied to had no smiley in it.
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And before you complain that they don't listen to us anyways
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Well, I would never do that as the word "anyway" should never be pluralized..
Glad you enjoy playing, wish I still did.
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First off at the bottom of page 12 is my original post that contains a smiley whereas you replied right beneath mine so I'm not sure which sets of posts you are referring.
Also "anyways" as per dictionary.com:
an·y·ways ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-wz)
adv. Nonstandard
In any case.
It's not plurazied....
Back on-topic: I'm glad Statesman has a chance to comment and although others think his words are empty, I for one am glad that they are making the efforts which is more than I can say for other games.
I'm sorry for Veg that he seems to think this game will turn into EQ in tights, I just don't see it happening. In fact, COH has many things that make it anything but EQ...but we all seem to play with different perspectives.
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Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?
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Pffftt..
Thats funny, those are re-actions to a huge outcry.
I don't think they represent your intentions one bit.
But I'm glad I got under your skin enough to make you defend
yourself again..
Maybe next time you will listen to the players on test...
Unlikely but I won't be around to see it anyway.
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Huge outcry? lol... You do realize that those that visit this forum makes up for an amazingly insignificant amount of the actual player base right? And even then only a few among this number(you included apparently) actually whine about the changes. The rest are all positive posts saying how they loved the changes. It seems to me there's a few griefers here trying to wreck the fun of others by calling nerf just because they don't have a clue of how to play this simple game. Trust me the "difficulty" of this game is very very vastly lower than most MMOs out there. You wanna go try EQ2? WoW? go ahead, you'll be killed by a single even con rat or beetle in the newbie zone if you think CoH is hard.
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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.
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It is a bug. Petition away - though we're working on a fix.
Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.
These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.
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Hopefully you mean the chainstun issue and not the +1 level issue. 
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Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols
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noooooooooooooooo . . .
I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).
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Huhh we kept /bug ing it on a constant basis for 3 weeks. How can't you guys notice that?
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I've given up.
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I posted a zillion ideas
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The game is leaning hard towards min/maxers and since that is
the case I no longer care.
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Agree and sympathize.
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is the bug that TOO MANY missions mobs are spawning as +1?
(meaning the fix will be to tweak down the overzealos spawning subroutine)
or is the bug the fact that there are ANY +1s mobs in mission?
(meaning once the fix goes in we wont see any +1s anymore)
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The impression I have gotten from reading other posts on this (and this is just my interpretation) is that its more of a case that too many +1 mobs are spawning in missions.
I recently rolled a new lowbie scrapper and I noticed that there were several missions where the significant majority of the mobs in the mission were +1 level to me. I think all of them were missions that were previously frontloaded, which, to me, says that it is indeed related to getting rid of frontloaded missions.
Most of those mission I've been able to handle, so far. Though on more than one occation I've just found that while it is noticiably harder, it is also far more tedious to complete the missions. I don't mind, per say, that the missions are harder and take longer to do... but since I tend to log in for 1/2 an hour to an hour at a time, the exra difficulty and duration of the missions puts a serious crimp in my enjoyment of these shorter sessions. I could, instead, go fight crime on the streets, but I personally have more fun when I feel that I have an actual goal or directed sense of purpose to fighting the mobs... which is why I do get a kick out of missions. (and story arcs especially)
Also, I've noticed some particularly nasty sets of spawns in some missions with a few of my alts. I was playing one of my level 15 scrappers, and had a Tsoo door mission, in the first hallway there was either the single nastiest spawn I have seen as a solo character at that level, or else there were more than 2 spawns of mobs in extremely close proximity. It contained, all at +1 level, 1 Sorcerer, 2 Ancestor Spirtis and 4 Enforcers of various sorts. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a patrol or anything, since they were just standing there, doing nothing. Needless to say, I had my head caved in by the ancestor spirits in relatively short order. I think I might have been able to come up with a plan to deal with that, but at the time I had gone through a spate of about 5 tsoo missions, and I had been defeated an average of 2 times per mission during that span. (mostly due to having to face +1 level Dragonflys) And I decided that I needed a break from the bloody Tsoo.
My guess is that they won't eliminate all of the +1 mobs from the missions, though I admit, I'd like to see fewer +1 level bosses in the early game... the minions, for the most part, I'm fine with... the lieutenants I find to be a mixed bag... it largely depends on what type of lieutenant it is. But the bosses... every now and then they make for a good nasty surprise, but after going through multiple consecutive missions where I had to deal with +1 bosses, it got more than a little tiresome.
I don't know if it is possible with the game's current tech, but I personally would like to see the occantioal boss who is equal level accompanied by minions who are +1 level. Not every mission, of course.
Anywho, that's my take on the whole situation.
Vila: Why don't you go?
Avon: You are expendable.
Vila: And you're not?
Avon: No, I am not. I am not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going.
Gan: I'll get the guns.
- Blake's 7, Horizon
Fair enough. While the combat pace is very FPS, it does get old against AI. I think CoV will make the game more interesting overall and perhaps, if you are still around, you will enjoy it far more than you do now. I too come from a heavy FPS background with RTS games thrown in. My MMO experience is far more shallow than yours, but then the reasons I could not get into them are the reasons CoH lacked and that attracted me.
I can see where you are coming from about wanting to feel like a superhero in CoH. But what does that mean? What does it mean to be a superhero? I know we fight super villains. But what, in your mind, makes one a super hero?
I think, in many ways, your experience with other MMORPGs has jaded you and made you cynical. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is the impression I get. Given what I hear about other MMOs, I don't think I blame you. I know that I am somewhat cynical when it comes to Big House Production companies (not their contracted developers mind you) such as Sierra/Vivendi or Microsoft or Strategy First. But that is becuase I have seen them 'rush' games out the door.
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Finally, at the behest of Garriott et al/NCsoft I think Statesman
will, if not sooner then later, turn CoH into EQ in capes and
tights.
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I truely hope not. If it comes to that, I can assure you my attachments to CoH are readily breakable. EQ but with Super Heros is not my cup of tea. I would sooner go back to playing NeverWinterNights for my RPG fix than continue playing a CoH that tried to be "other".
But, I don't see that as happening... maybe you can enlighten me as to why you would think that?
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
Statesman, I believe your intentions are noble. However, high level minions do not appear to be alone in being blessed with new powers. Outcast minions now use Fire and Ice attacks and use heal other. If this stands it's going to promote more solo play where these minions are involved. More teammates equals more minions with Fire Bolt and Ice Blast, and more importantly Heal Other. This is dramatically more difficult to handle, especially considering low level heroes are the ones being called upon to handle them.