sorry, but the low end (1-20) is NOT fun now.

[ QUOTE ]
it's being changed - they why, how, shoulda's, coulda's etc. do not matter one bit.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do. You cant do it better next time if you dont pay attention to what went wrong this time.

[ QUOTE ]

personally, i think you're wrong. It's everyone's responsibility to test


[/ QUOTE ]

And I think you're wrong. Its not my JOB to test. I dont get paid to test, I PAY to play.

[ QUOTE ]

perhaps it was tried out, and accidently got left in, but i doubt it was intentional. look - the rikti chiefs were one-slicing people to death. are you saying that was intentional too?


[/ QUOTE ]

This was pointed out on the test server. Wierdbeard commented recently that bugs are prioritized. Guess this just wasnt a priority until the live population got smoked on night one.

[ QUOTE ]

but claiming that this is state's evil plan seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Lower level mobs having access to bunches of stuns/mezs/holds was classified as a DESIGN bug. LOL.
What the heck did the Designer (Not developer) think this was going to to go?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but you tried speaking for Statesman earlier since you appear to be the authority on what lurks within the hearts of evil Devs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, don't be a complete twit..

There is big smiley on the end of that first post.

Taking a dig at Statesman and speaking for him are two
different things.

This has nothing to do with the post but I have to ask ... Veg, do you actually play or do you just sit on the forums and argue?

The items that were released in Issue2 were put on test where evryone had a chance to try out the missions and powers and respecs and anything else that was put in place if you did not got to the test server and try these things out and think well everyones else is doin it so why should I then you have nothing to complain about

Of couse this is my opinion
(Feel free to flame, abuse and misuse me now)

[ QUOTE ]
Veg, do you actually play or do you just sit on the forums and argue?

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to play a lot more...

WTB: "teh fun"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but you tried speaking for Statesman earlier since you appear to be the authority on what lurks within the hearts of evil Devs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, don't be a complete twit..

There is big smiley on the end of that first post.

Taking a dig at Statesman and speaking for him are two
different things.



[/ QUOTE ]

There was a smiley on my post too! Don't be an arrogant jerk!

In any case, seriously why don't you present to us constructive ways of dealing with the situation instead of trolling the Devs like they broke your favorite toy. Or else all you'll get back are sarcastic remarks as that's all you seem to dish out.

[ QUOTE ]
if you did not got to the test server and try these things out and think well everyones else is doin it so why should I then you have nothing to complain about

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of us actually thought it was Cryptic's and NCsoft's job to
test the software we pay for.

Guess I only have myself to blame for Statesman's decisions...

Damn ol' Vegetator, makin' Statesman do stuff !!!

[ QUOTE ]
The items that were released in Issue2 were put on test where evryone had a chance to try out the missions and powers and respecs and anything else that was put in place if you did not got to the test server and try these things out and think well everyones else is doin it so why should I then you have nothing to complain about

Of couse this is my opinion
(Feel free to flame, abuse and misuse me now)

[/ QUOTE ]

No I fully disagree. As the other poster said, we pay to play, not pay to test then be told it is our responsibility to ensure the game functions.

The company is paid to do that and they look for input from the masses to possibly make their job easier, but it is by no means any of our responsibility to test a product.

After all, we are not the experts, and as people have said, how do we know what they intend for the game.

Obviously testers told them the Outcasts had way too many high lvl powers and holds and this was ignored. A few more people telling them this would be ignored just the same.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry my friend ... but you have no idea what you are asking. It is easier to fix what is not working than roll back at this point.

Server stability is annoying ... but should be fixed soon ... I'm sure they are going crazy over this.

As for the toughness now ... well it is still very playable ... you might just have to think a little (ouch that could hurt ) but there is always the possibility of having fun. If you see this as work ... it s because you choose to.

If your mission is too hard ... leave! ... Do others ... get another level and come back ... anyway .. I'm still having fun and I have no chars over 22 ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another patronizing poster...give that give a ***** Badge. Listen this is not DAoC or Eq or any of the other BS you are used to. The fact that it is becoming that may make you happy but others don't want that and thought this game would be different so GFY properly.

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously testers told them the Outcasts had way too many high lvl powers and holds and this was ignored. A few more people telling them this would be ignored just the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel it's more likely that there just weren't enough people on the Test server, fighting Outcasts often enough for the changes to even be noticed.

Um..someone posted links from the test forum of people telling the devs exactly this fact.

I would think that is enough information to look into it. They did not obviously if they are "fixing" it now.

Its seems that all the old RPG players that played all the old MMORPG are the ones that thought the old was too easy and like the difficulty now. Most are stuck in EQ, DAoC or whatever mode game and think that the way all GAMES have to be. Tell me honestly how many come from those old games and always apply the same tired view to this game?

I'm begging to believe most people that are like that don't want a NEW game they just want the old game in a new setting. Longing to play the old game. They view this game as just a extension pack to <insert you old MMORPG here>.

Some people won't be happy until everything conforms to something they are already used to.

[ QUOTE ]
There was a smiley on my post too!

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly not trolling you on this:

No, there was no smiley on the post I replied to.

Constructive ideas...

I posted a zillion ideas, I detailed how certain dynamic missions
could easily be implemented, I detailed how to implement a
costume creation system for playing with costumes offline, I
asked them not to change the game for power gamers when
they ripped a ton of fun out with the purple patch...

I've given up.

The developers of this game cannot understand that min/maxers
will always blaze through a game, but with no PvP or economy it
doesn't matter how many people hit the level cap.

One of this game's biggest appeals is making new characters.

With the way the game is set up now, who are the only people
that will take their alt to the level cap ??

Min/maxers.

What is the percentage of players that are min/maxers ?

If the playerbase is composed of a majority of min/maxers then
retaining them by slowing them down is good business.

If the majority of the playerbase is casual, or even totally new
to MMORPGS, what will retention be when those players have to
grind thousands of mobs to see character advancement ?

The game is leaning hard towards min/maxers and since that is
the case I no longer care.

< out of topic >

This thread is a master piece !
Good laugh.

Certainly the onus is on the Developer and Producer to make sure their work is of acceptable quality. But there is only so much you can test for given staffing limitations. Creating the Test server was a good call and a requested by the community at that. Are we helping them do their job? Yes. Are we to blame for not helping them? No and yes.

Game companies have public open and closed betas for a reason. The more eyes you have looking at something, the more likely it is that issues will be caught. Whose fault is it when an known issue goes live? The Developers of course. The reasons why, however, are another matter. Perhaps they felt the issue was not serious enough to delay release. Maybe delaying release would do more harm than the issue? (I am assuming here) Maybe the reason something was released was that not enough information became available about the severity of the issue - lack of testers experiencing the problem, difficulty in replicating and thus finding the cause of an issue.

The opportunity of the community to test a patch that will effect them and thus give feed back is invaluable. I can think of several things during the testing of Issue 2 that were addressed by the Devs (Ice Patch and Ice Slick for example).

aside: I think it is a mistake to argue from silence concerning the +1 villains that the devs are trying to cover their tracks by now saying "Its a bug".

Anyways, at the point that testers recall they need to submit bug reports and otherwise make it easier to address discovered bugs the fault lies on the developers for releasing Issue 2 in such a condition. Given the number of people who cry 'nerf' when something could be a bug, I am given to the impression that a lot of people may have 'tested' without submitting one single bug report over something they thought was amiss. It is not very easy to know when something is a bug, a feature, or a nerf. Is the new version of Teleport a bug or a feature? I don't recall an indication there was a change to it from the various patch notes. But it seems to be an improvement, so do I /bug it and run the risk of seemingly beneficial feature being removed (after all, it was stated that the continuation of momentum after a TP was initially a feature)or remain silent and hope it was simply an oversight that it was left out of the notes?

I rolled a BS/Regen scrapper yesterday. He's currently at lvl 7 and got there street hunting mostly. Despite increased xp with the additional difficulty missions still aren't worth doing. The downtime alone is incredibly annoying. I've been doing a mission for the past hour. I've got to take a break and browse the boards for a few minutes after every group of enemies while my health comes back, this is only made worse because there are more enemies in the mission now. Let's not forget the nifty new drug labs I have to destroy in the mission. The ones that explode with enough force to knock off half my life bar and with no ranged attack I just have to accept that damage meaning more downtime Got to the end and found a freindly red Skull Daddy, died twice and said "Screw it". Sure I could probably take him if I stocked up on insp. but the xp I'd get just isn't worth the run to a contact so I guess it's back to street hunting. I don't really like to complain and this isn't going to cause me to quit or anything but if the devs intention is to encourage people to do missions they screwed up big time. I wouldn't mind these changes in missions lvl 20+ but at low levels they're just stupid.

P.S. I also find myself rather sceptical about claims that this is a bug that's being fixed. We seem to hear that a lot lately about changes to the game that turn out to be unpopular and I tend to think that at least some of the time it's just an easy excuse.

[ QUOTE ]

Honestly not trolling you on this:

No, there was no smiley on the post I replied to.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny isn't that the same thing that's been said about your posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there was as this was what prompted your "I never speak for anyone" off-topic line. Sorry if you misunderstood, let's get back to the original debate.

[ QUOTE ]

Constructive ideas...

I posted a zillion ideas, I detailed how certain dynamic missions
could easily be implemented, I detailed how to implement a
costume creation system for playing with costumes offline, I
asked them not to change the game for power gamers when
they ripped a ton of fun out with the purple patch...

I've given up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well they fixed the purple patch....

[ QUOTE ]

The developers of this game cannot understand that min/maxers
will always blaze through a game, but with no PvP or economy it
doesn't matter how many people hit the level cap.


[/ QUOTE ]

But you're not thinking ahead....there will be PVP and the economy is left to the imagination (which I hope they don't do). PVP aside, balance is still needed as no one wants a multiplaying game with God-Mode enabled. It's not in anyone's interest, the Devs or the players.

[ QUOTE ]

One of this game's biggest appeals is making new characters.

With the way the game is set up now, who are the only people
that will take their alt to the level cap ??

Min/maxers.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, I'm an avid re-roller and I make characters with RPGing in mind...not which power equals "teh win". I doubt I'm the minority here.

[ QUOTE ]

What is the percentage of players that are min/maxers ?

If the playerbase is composed of a majority of min/maxers then
retaining them by slowing them down is good business.

If the majority of the playerbase is casual, or even totally new
to MMORPGS, what will retention be when those players have to
grind thousands of mobs to see character advancement ?

The game is leaning hard towards min/maxers and since that is
the case I no longer care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's grinding? I just made a bunch of new characters even dispite the "difficulty issues which are being fixed" and have no problem leveling. I made level 15 in 2-3 days of casual playing and I don't min/max. I don't believe the majority of the players are min/maxers so you only force yourself to think on the negative and tend to think the game is going down the tube when in fact it's probably quite the opposite.

All I have to say is we saw these kind of posts when the Hasten Nerf and Purple Patches were released...so far all those "problems" were tweaked or fixed. Why should this situation be any different.

And if you claim that the previous issues should teach them better, well like I've mentioned before stop playing MMORPGs because the concept in the entire genre is that it continues to change. Change means new variables which means even more testing. Limited testing will never be able to isolate every situation until it's exposed to a much large perspective. Again this is just basic statistics whether you believe we should test the game or not...obviously someone needs to test it and obviously there needs to be a LOT of people doing so.

Consider this, either they hire more internal testers and up the monthly fee or they actually (OMG perish the thought) let the gamers help them critique the game and make it better for all parties involved.

And before you complain that they don't listen to us anyways; we have numerous posts stating they do listen, they do hear, they will fix it...so we just need patience until we are proven wrong when a year from now we still have the same issues (cough..cough..SWG..cough)

About Min/Maxers: I agree 100%. In City of Heros it does not make a heck of a lot of difference when or if you reach your level cap in relation to other players. My being level 10 and you being level 50 does not make a whole lot of difference except for you since you have run out of content. If there are only a minority (less than 50%) of min/maxers, you actually affect everybody else who is not a min/maxer when you try to slow them down.

With a game intended for casual players, min/maxers should be at the lower end of the scale. Now, the mission XP increases are meant to bolster those who don't "power game". That is nice for the causual player. Chained missions that end in a timed mission or missions that are not clear that having "another player" would be good, are unfair towards the causual player.

Come PvP: we don't know diddly about PvP when it arrives. However, being level 50 still won't make a lot of difference in it since you don't have loot, crafts, etc... Where it will make a difference is in available powers and their enhancements. But, between the SK and Exemplar system, I think I see a way where that "advantage" can be minimized.

So, here is the gist: is the game becoming more casual player friendly or not? I doubt casual players noticed the Purple Patch after version 2 of it. I know it was noticable but not obvious in version 1 of it. Missions, which the casual player will engage in more than not, had their XP upped. The dynamic of creating situations where you have to have another player is problematic, especially at lower levels which should see the greatest soloability (if I recall the tiering from early on), but not impossible. The addition of looking for players across zones as well as being able to hide oneself is a great benefit for those who discover they need help in a mission or wish to avoid teaming and solo a little.

So, to sum up: Unless Min/Maxers are the majority of players, slowing down leveling makes little sense (especially given the earlier Gaffer quote I mentioned ). Altitis solves many of the 'boredom' issues. I think more is being done to boost the casual players experience who does missions than not.

First, please check your facts, the post I replied to had no smiley in it.

[ QUOTE ]
And before you complain that they don't listen to us anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would never do that as the word "anyway" should never be pluralized..

Glad you enjoy playing, wish I still did.

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. I also find myself rather sceptical about claims that this is a bug that's being fixed. We seem to hear that a lot lately about changes to the game that turn out to be unpopular and I tend to think that at least some of the time it's just an easy excuse.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given the various apologies when something goes wrong and admissions I've seen in the forums of mistakes on the part of the developers, I think you are wrong. It most likely is a bug that few people /bugged in game as they should have and most of the forum comments were few and sparse and never commented on by the devs. I see no reason to not take them at face value when they say "It is a bug and we are working on fixing it". Besides, solving the bug may or may not (nod to Vegie here) be easy.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. So the fact that we've....

1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations

Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?

I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly the onus is on the Developer and Producer to make sure their work is of acceptable quality. But there is only so much you can test for given staffing limitations. Creating the Test server was a good call and a requested by the community at that. Are we helping them do their job? Yes. Are we to blame for not helping them? No and yes.

Game companies have public open and closed betas for a reason. The more eyes you have looking at something, the more likely it is that issues will be caught. Whose fault is it when an known issue goes live? The Developers of course. The reasons why, however, are another matter. Perhaps they felt the issue was not serious enough to delay release. Maybe delaying release would do more harm than the issue? (I am assuming here) Maybe the reason something was released was that not enough information became available about the severity of the issue - lack of testers experiencing the problem, difficulty in replicating and thus finding the cause of an issue.

The opportunity of the community to test a patch that will effect them and thus give feed back is invaluable. I can think of several things during the testing of Issue 2 that were addressed by the Devs (Ice Patch and Ice Slick for example).


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with just about everything you said there. As players, it's not our responsibility, or job, to visit the test server and hammer away at it. But I feel we do ourselves a favor if we do.

I already know by clicking on the EULA that "Online Game Experience May Change." The only way I can influence the way it changes, is by becoming active in the continuing design process. And the only way to really do that is by hitting the test server, and being extremely, extremely vocal about issues perceived there. The devs do listen to us. They've proven it time and time again with positive changes. The only thing is, sometimes they don't always hear everything say, and sometimes we're not loud enough.

Myself...I'm willing to grant Statesman the benefit of the doubt when he says the +1 difficulty issue came about as a side effect of removing the front-loaded missions. Granting that benefit, and waiting for the fix, is probably the best thing I can do in this situation.

I don't believe it's productive to sow seeds of mistrust, which is why I responded so vehemently in my first post in this thread. So let' say you hate and mistrust the devs. That's perfectly fine. But what's the point in trying to get the rest of the playerbase to do the same? Nobody wins that way. I feel that's probably the most non-productive thing to do.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. So the fact that we've....

1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations

Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?

I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are doing a great job man!!!
Dont listen to these guys who want everything spoon fed! lol
We did the Terra Volta trial with a balanced team, planned before engaging mobs and NO ONE died, not even once

Make the game harder I say!!!

yea well, the +1 mob stuff with the issue is the main problem I have with it and because of this, I'm holding off on missions on all my chars till it gets fixed.

and BTW, getting your [censored] kicked by a lvl 1+ behemoth sevrral times HURTS! its hard to adapt to the SG changes with this mob stuff, although I was able to handle the stuff my level just fine.

also, cloaking device seems broken cause the lvl 1+ behemoth saw me even with cloak on.

While i don't mind having +1 minions in missions, I like an added challenge, +1 bosses are still too much for me.

Kudos to you Stateman. The fat little kiddies will whine, but that's because Mommy has always given them candy and Nintendo instead of discipline. Thanks for, yet again, telling us the +1 mobs weren't on purpose. You'd think after personally posting it like 8-10 times they'd finally get it. You'd think.

Dwimble