sorry, but the low end (1-20) is NOT fun now.

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There are still two changes that make things harder at the lower levels. First, the wandering patrols. Great once you've got your powers working and know what you're doing, but deadly in the very low end game (below 10th)

Second, the outcast as a low level group have problems. You've made every minion a blaster, the torches use the power that the hellion bosses use. Being out of melee range isn't safe when dealing with the outcasts. Frankly, the trolls should have been routed from the Hollows within a day of the battle starting, they're wimps compared to the outcast. With this as theoretically a 5-15 level zone, that's problematic.

If the minions only had elemental melee attacks (like the icy hands and earth hands that they do have), that would be keeping within the same danger level while keeping the elemental theme.

I have no doubt you didn't intend to make it harder. But I do think you lost sight of what it's like to be a starting character, particularly a new player who is still learning what all's going on.

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I have to agree with this 100%. I also like the feel of the Hollows as a group-centric zone. However, this zone makes Perez look literally, like a walk in the park. I was part of a group (all good friends) that involved levels 10-11. This zone is nightmarish and the missions within it even worse. My Invulnerability tank felt like a punching bag. This was after the stun fix. Between normal melee stuns and knockdowns, there was very little I was adding to the group. I have unyielding stance... oh yeah... unyielding. So while I handle the 1 or 2 outcasts that are willing to melee, the rest of my group dies to the 8 other mobs using elemental ranged attacks. I don't have Provoke yet, I'm sure that would help... well, it would help me die faster maybe. This is a decent balanced group of Controller, Blaster, Defender, Tanker. We like to think we're fairly competent, but the entire experience was, in total, not fun. The Outcasts are throwing around lots of powers within one single group... Hurricane, Lighting, Fire and Ice, not to mention Shockers healing! This is a big departure from the Game As We Knew It(TM). Not even Boomtown was ever this aggravating, and it has a higher level range I believe. I would LOVE to see this kind of mixed attack group in the higher levels. That kind of varied assault makes grouping far more interesting and gives all archetypes and powersets a chance to shine. But at the levels of the Hollows, it's just overwhelming.

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I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

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When he was on faculty at Georgetown University Henry Kissinger was reported to have said that "Academic politics is the most vicious form of all politics precisely because the stakes are so low." I guess some of the folks who are getting beat up in the low levels are taking it worse than others.

For myself, I appreciate that the Dev team is making the fix a high priority, and I appreciate that there's someone here like yourself to explain what's going on. Please don't allow this chorus of abuse to get you down. CoH became what it is by listening to what people want, and delivering it in a form that pleases most people (even if it doesn't seem to work out for everybody).

Hang in there, guy.

I actually hope that the dev's hold off on fixing the +1 mobs in missions until they have the difficulty slider ready to go. I love this bug! My SG is actually pumped about doing missions because they're a challenge now (and you guys did some terrific work with more varied types of missions).

Consider going that route, States. I promise I won't be a jerk about your ideas for 'soloing' controllers.... for like a week, at least, if you do.

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I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.


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Hmmm. So the fact that we've....

1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations

Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?

I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.

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I think things are better now - I was able to do the respec. The fix to the Rikti is a WELCOME one too. Thanks for removing the stuns. I think it is almost perfect - with that little +1 mission bug being the last problem (on its way to being fixed.)

Folks tend to be quick to anger and slow to forgive. Don't let them get under your skin

BTW: Statesman stated a few days ago that the slider MAY come as soon as issue 3 but maybe later. You sure you want to wait that long? That makes it around Xmas time. I sure don't.

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I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).



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Hey! Lets have a competition and see how many times we can get statesman to say this!!

Seriously .. I've seen him post this at least 5 times now. They're working on it and will get it done as fast as they can, while making sure it's *right* this time. Let up.

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EQ but with Super Heros is not my cup of tea. I would sooner go back to playing NeverWinterNights for my RPG fix than continue playing a CoH that tried to be "other".

But, I don't see that as happening... maybe you can enlighten me as to why you would think that?

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Amen! My respect for you just leveled up. Should COH ever go in the direction that it's being claimed to, I would also go back to playing in my persistant world in NWN. That game had me addicted for a long time (well not the game really, the PW I played on).

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BTW: Statesman stated a few days ago that the slider MAY come as soon as issue 3 but maybe later. You sure you want to wait that long? That makes it around Xmas time. I sure don't.

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They are going to fix the problems that we are having now before the Slider is put in. The Slider isn't the answer to this particular problem it's just another nice feature to insure difficulty issues like these won't be as big a problem in future updates.

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3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times

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You know, I'm not usually one to complain about this game, but if this is easier, how did you expect anyone to get it done originally?! Everything's fine up until the final mission, and even that's fine once you get to the core. Yes, surprisingly enough, the final stage is the easiest. It's the route to the core where you have to fight through packs with as many as *SIX BOSSES*, all of them anywhere from +2-4 levels HIGHER than the HIGHEST MEMBER OF THE TF... The group going in there has to be set up perfectly to even have a chance of getting through. Worse still is the fact that these hordes of bosses were tightly packed with another horde about 5 steps away from it.

The power plant had us pulling our hair out until we finally got to the core, then it was actually fun, even though we did fail on the last wave. What struck me as odd as the waves were ALL lower level than the packs of mobs throughout the rest of the building. Was this intentional?

The fight to the core wasn't fun, that's all there was to it. It was mind-numbingly tedious slowly trying to weed out a few from the packs at a time and failing multiple times causing full team wipes.

The major problem is the level spread. Having everything at least 2 higher than the highest member of the task force forces a tight level packing in the team, which makes it a pain in the butt for our SG to get together and do something like this as a SG. SKing makes this easier to accomplish, but we should be able to do something as a group without requiring us to leave so many out because they won't be able to help on the TF...

Statesman :[ QUOTE ]
I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of my tester friends and I noticed it and thought it was intentional. Because it made missions at our levels more fun and exciting, we failed to mention it. I did start a katana scrapper during testing and leveled it to 10th to try out the new animations. I noticed the missions were harder, but I was still able to solo them, so again I thought it was intentional and so never bugged it.

Signed one embarrassed (volunteer and amateur) tester

Statesman, my final thoughts.

No trolling this time:

I've enjoyed a lot about your game and I have enjoyed the hell
out of trolling you and these boards. (Gardvord had to go
someplace, right ?)

You are, without a doubt, a success... City of Heroes is doing
fine, better than most as it represents something new.

Congratulations on holding your full box price for so many
weeks, truly a feat that others only hope to replicate.

Best wishes to you, Statesman, and all the others that struggled
to get this unique game to market.

<----- Gardvord says:

*RAWR*

In other words, we should test more and complain less?

Agreed.

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These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.

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Okay, so the +1 enemies across the board in missions is a bug. Great. Any hints on when it's going to be FIXED, and what we should do in the meantime, since some of us (genuine newbies) serious problems doing our own missions with this BUG?

If the answer's "don't play for a week," well... I understand these things happen, but I won't be happy about it.

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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.


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It is a bug. Petition away - though we're working on a fix.

Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.

These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.

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Working on a fix for this mission is fine, but that in no way takes care of the 1900 needless debt my toon accrued nor the xp I missed out on because I failed the mission. Since we don't know what missions are bugged, would you then suggest that maybe we just quit playing until the repairs are made?

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In other words, we should test more and complain less?

Agreed.

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These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.

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The people who say otherwise are like the people who complain about the state the US is in and yet never vote. Of course we don't get paid to fix the country, the country should fix itself.

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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.

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Yellow bosses (-1 level) do the same thing with chain stuns and the like. I was in a level 29 family mission the other night (I'm level 30 blaster) and I couldn't take the level 29 boss solo because he kept me chain-stunned.

I don't mind difficulty of mobs, but they should not be impossible like that. The difficulty disparity between a Family boss and a Family lieutenant is HUGE.

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so the +1 enemies across the board in missions is a bug. Great. Any hints on when it's going to be FIXED, and what we should do in the meantime, since some of us (genuine newbies) serious problems doing our own missions with this BUG?

If the answer's "don't play for a week," well... I understand these things happen, but I won't be happy about it.


[/ QUOTE ]

the answer is keep trying . . . keep trying new things . . . you might surprise yourself.

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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is a bug. Petition away - though we're working on a fix.

Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.

These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Working on a fix for this mission is fine, but that in no way takes care of the 1900 needless debt my toon accrued nor the xp I missed out on because I failed the mission. Since we don't know what missions are bugged, would you then suggest that maybe we just quit playing until the repairs are made?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, for those complaining about massive debt did it ever occur to anyone to stop doing what they were doing to get debt in the first place. If the mission was too hard to solo and you died did you keep going back just to get killed again without taking a different approach?

Hehehe, I just think it's funny these people claiming, "I've got 10000000 debt please fix the game". That's like telling someone, "I keep slamming my head into this wall so please remove the wall." Ummm...does anyone just stop to think about what you are really doing to yourself?

Honestly, I cannot understand what is so "game-breaking" about the bugs. Why is it some can solo mission and others can't? I don't think "stop playing" is an answer so I agree but all I will say is have patience and if whatever you are doing doesn't seem to work for you now then either group, badge hunt, or street sweep. Surely there is SOMETHING you can do besides your 1 mission with bugs versus not playing at all.

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I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

[/ QUOTE ]

So...how long is this going to take before we see the "fix." Is it going to be released live in a few days...or will it have to hit the training room first, wait a few more weeks before it hits live, a little time after everyone in the game (at least the ones who love to do missions and drags along other unsuspecting heroes) are at maximum debt?

As of 10PM last night on Freedom Server Outcasts were still rooting, stunning, and doing kockdowns like crazy, their bosses still do ungodly amounts of damage for their level (like most of my scrappers bar in a single hit) with attacks NO ONE our level has any defense for, most of them still have powers way outside of their level and I still have +1 Mobs in most of my missions.

When were these fixes supposed to go in?

I have to admit, I did become frustrated when I tried to solo a mission in the Hollows (Defeat Outcast, mission #2). However, undaunted, I called a friend...a defender, and made a new one (scrapper) who accidentally dragged 2 troll lts to us. We completed the mission with patience and I got to use taunt to good effect and we beat Bedrock after a tough fight.

It was very satisfying. So now I'm not so mad about the +1 bug. Concerned that it will prevent most ATs from soloing, however.

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The Outcasts are throwing around lots of powers within one single group... Hurricane, Lighting, Fire and Ice, not to mention Shockers healing! This is a big departure from the Game As We Knew It(TM).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is certainly a thorny issue for the devs. The game has sets of villains and as you play, you learn what to expect from each group. The changes in Update 2 made to existing villains were significant (even beyond the stuns many complained about) and I think a lot of people felt forced out of their "comfort zone" in fighting them. Players get used to things being a certain way and changing them, especially when the change is not perceived as for the better, results in a degree of alientation.

Myself, I would prefer to see new villains brought in with the additional powers rather than altering or adding more powers to existing villains. The problem with that is it takes a lot more work for the dev team to come up with new models, textures and so on.

By responding to the complaints quickly and effectively, I think Cryptic has demonstrated that they are willing to admit mistakes, fix them and move on. They definitely deserve kudos for that. No one likes admitting to mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, for those complaining about massive debt did it ever occur to anyone to stop doing what they were doing to get debt in the first place. If the mission was too hard to solo and you died did you keep going back just to get killed again without taking a different approach?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well did it ever occur to you that some of us have actually tried taking a different approach on things? I know I have and it led to the same outcome, dying and building up even more debt. Yeah, you can street sweep as people like to put it but it's crappy experience, you have to fight with other people over the mobs you 'arrest' and it gets way boring way quick. I have a major problem with people coming up and 'leeching' experience from me when I fight outdoors so I prefer to do indoor missions so that won't be a problem.

As for badge hunting, there are only so many of those you can find at low levels before you run out of them. I mean come on. And for someone like myself who is a solo player, finding a group really isn't the answer either. Specially when I do finally break down and group they all turn out to be horrid players and I died more with them than I did solo.

Now, while I do not agree with giving us some compensation for the debt we obtained through out the 'bug' instance, I do not think that we should have to stop doing indoor missions. I pay money monthly for this game as does everyone else, I/we should be able to play the game in it's entirety.

That response sounds like you're throwing the blame at the feet of all those on Test. There were several discussions on the boards about the number of bosses and +1 enemies in the missions. I know you have better things to do than read every thread on the boards, but don't you have anyone whose job it is to monitor people's reactons? If you'd like to see what I mean, do a search for "yellows" on the Test board.

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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is a bug. Petition away - though we're working on a fix.

Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.

These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.

[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman, you might as well face it. People like to complain. You could play the game for them and they'd still say it was too hard. Meh... I think the fixes were more than enough.

Man, I haven't see you have to post the same thing so many times before.

PEOPLE, STOP HARASSING THE MAN. HE HAS UPDATE #3 TO THINK ABOUT!!!