sorry, but the low end (1-20) is NOT fun now.
By
7onTest,
Posted on: 2004-09-22 06:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ok two can play this game. In my experience in game, the people who aren't enjoying the new difficulty are more numerous than the whiners who are. You can make up all the aribtrary BS you want but the changes were not indended and will be fixed. This is a FIX and not a NERF. You do understand the difference right?
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LOL I just have to laugh at this. The devs put literally dozens of individual elements into issue 2 that all seem to increase difficulty, some in very small ways, others in bigger ways. Errors/bugs are by nature random. They could go one way or the other. Believing that ALL the increased difficulty was inadvertent is tantamount to believing the cashier who has shortchanged you the last 20 times you purchased goods and never made an error the other way, when he says each and every time it was just a mistake.
Sure, some of this is bugs. I believe the devs about the +1 mission bug (I think). But no way was all of this increased difficulty inadvertant. Some of it was experimentation. Recall that the devs thought the game too easy pre-Udate (at least post level 25). Consider also that toon powers overall were given a boost (about 40 were improved vs. 3-4 nerfed). And they dramatically increased door mission XP. Maybe they thought they had to toughen up some mobs to maintain at least a constant difficulty level?
Does anyone seriously believe that the devs added all these powers to minions of various mob groups and each separate occurrence was an "oops." And "oops, I did it again." Each a separate and specific error of *commission*. LOL
- felicity
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From statesman-
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As I said, the +1 minions are a bug.
The stun/mez/etc. powers in low level villains - that was a Design error. No doubt about it. A mistake - and one we're rectifying now.
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True a design error is not a bug but they obviously don't feel the change is what the wanted and are going to fix it. It's all water under the bridge and easier to call it a bug since it's effects were unintended or underestimated.
Just to point out a couple of difference in AT's here, I played up to new toons for fun. Both were forced to enter the hollows to do missions. One was a Fire/Stone Melee tank, the other an Ice/Energy blaster. The results with the 2 were far different.
Blaster- soloing the character, be it missions, street hunting, whatever, was just way easier than the tank. Not a big suprise for me, I figured it would be. The ranged attacks just make it easy for me. I soloed Eel fairly easily also, attacking, retreating a little bit, finished him off. Same with the other boss, Brick or something like that, in the next mission. All the mobs were +1 and the bosses were red.
Tank- Playing up until lvl 8 was pretty fun. I didn't even try the missions with this toon until lvl 8 because I wanted to try out a new toon in the Hollows. My first stab at the Eel mission with this toon was with 2 friends from my SG who had made new alts also. To make a short story of this one, we couldn't even make it past the first group of mobs without the scrapper biting it. I barely made it back out the door, along with the defender. Scrapper said screw that (don't blame him), and the defender decided we should restart scaled to 2. This time I died (quickly) and he barely got away. That was enough for him. And me. I logged off for the night. Came back the next day and tried to solo this mission with my tanker. I ran from the hospital and grabbed some inspirations along the way. 1st group of 3 mobs in the mission, shocker kept putting me to sleep while the others kept beating me senseless. I didn't have access to any disciplines yet, and they don't seem to drop very often for me, so didn't have any to protect myself. To make it short, I died again, when trying to run I was chained to sleep and beaten to death. Totally different experience than my blaster.
I know they said a fix was coming for this already, just thought I'd post the differences that some AT's may be having doing the same mission with the +1 mobs. Everyone's opinion may be valid. I leveled my tank up to lvl 9 last night and I'll try the same mission now that I lvled past it. I don't find it very enjoyable I had to level up to stand a chance at this mission with my tank though.
Edit: Won't give some posters the satisfaction of a response, 1 added to ignore now though. 
Hehe this is the craziest thread I've seen so far to date.
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I like to be intellectually challenged and stimulated when I'm playing.
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Have you tried chess?
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There is no validity. You whiny crybabies want to dumb the game down and make it so damn boring it turns into the Sims with Super Powers! Whoohoo. That sounds so much fun! /sarcasm....
Why don't you see the validity in my viewpoint? The game should be a challenge, otherwise there's no point to playing.
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So, let me get this straight. You refuse to see the validity in MY point, yet you expect me to see validity in yours?
You know what's funny? I actually DO see the validity in your point. The problem for me is, that the game WAS already challenging at the low levels prior to #2. At least, back then, the challenge was fun.
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I can run around Founder's Falls at level four and not die. I got the Chaotician badge to prove it.
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Founder's Falls huh? Yeah, I'm sure I could run around there at level 4, if I knew the terrain. Never even been there. This does NOT prove your point about tactics and such. After spending some time in a certain zone, you'll know exactly where the mobs spawn, and you know exactly which areas to avoid, and you know exactly which is the safest route to take.
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I love how the cowards always make assumptions about the person behind the screen.
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Isn't that EXACTLY what you're doing?
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I'm not calling anyone names.
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That label is coward.
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you're a coward
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You're a quitter
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Labelling and name-calling pretty much amount to the same thing.
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If the majority of people didn't like the new difficulty, they would come here and post.
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How do you know? Do you personally know the 200,000 people playing this game?
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Why don't you try reading the thread Solo... instead of posting useless ideas that don't have any merit in game. You can't take missions above your level just because you want to. Street hunting is boring and stupid and something that I honestly think does not belong in the game. It should not be so prevalent.
Bugging people to join your group only to kick them out a moment later is a really stupid idea. For one, it only lasts for the first floor of a mission. Two, it could garner you a bad rep in game for joining and quitting groups. Three, it takes too long. I have a limited amount of time to play. I don't need to waste the time I have cajoling people into joining my group. They have better things to be doing and so do I.
Not using inspirations or certain powers is just dumbing down yourself which is also flat out stupid. I will not play that way. I will use every means available to my characters to defeat the enemy. I will not play dumb. The rest of you can just learn to play smarter and everyone will be better off in the end.
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Alright, I don't normally do this, but in this case, I'll make a special exception.
What did I do to deserve a response like that, huh? All I did was try to get the thread in a more civil tone and offer a few suggestions. They were serious suggestions, too. I wasn't trying to be patronizing. You don't seem to like the suggestions, and that's fine and dandy, but again, you instantly go straight for personal attacks.
I realize that you may feel like you're PERSONALLY under attack here, but let me clue you in on something: You're bringing it upon yourself.
When you lash out at people for NO reason whatsoever, they'll tend to regard you poorly. Personally, I have no clue as to why you decided to make it personal, but I've had about enough of it. Settle down. It's not you against the world, ok?
wow, im not even going to READ the last 30 posts in this thread, and for the record, the +1 bug isnt what im complaining about at all. If i know that all missions atm are spawning +1 , then its my choice wether or not to fight them (ie do missions) until its fixed. Im speaking mostly of the new powers OVERPOWERING the low end game. Thats it, thats all, and those powers dont SEEM to be given out as a bug.
The powers are being scaled back. There's a thread about revising the Hollows where, apparently, some of the power changes have made it to test.
A number of powers have been removed from Outcasts (the trolls have been mostly left alone from what I can tell). Some powers have NOT been removed, like fire imps from the Lead Scorchers (which is a pain), but things like hurricane have been removed from the shockers and apparently their healing powers as well.
Long as we don't see all the chain stunning/mezzing/etc., I can handle damage increases. The Outcasts will likely be regarded as on the same level as Vahzilok now -- tough enemies, but not unbeatable.
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3) None of Solo_4114 suggestions said anything about "powers". He did mention the use of inspirations, which I notice *you* seem to pop like steroids. Why do you do that? Is the game too tough for you do "unenhanced"?
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Wrong. Here is the direct quote from solo's post:
"3.) Try fighting "with one hand tied behind your back." In other words, take on challenges where you refuse to use certain powers or inspirations, or unslot your attacks (or just don't upgrade them)."
He said, don't use certain powers, or don't slot the powers. Here's another idea, why not purposefully die to put yourself into debt. That way you will level really slow, and never get the good powers. 
- felicity
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Very true. I DID make suggestions about powers. Felicity's response to me (IE: take on greens/blues, etc.) was on par with what I said and perfectly fair game, far as I'm concerned. The argument DOES cut both ways, except in the realm of mission difficulty.
For NOW, I think that the TEMPORARY solution is to return missions to their +0 status. That, however, should be a band-aid until we can get the difficulty slider, so I think Felicity and I are in (mostly) agreement here.
In the meantime, I'd like to address a different point: the notion of "Forced" gaming.
I see people post how they're "forced" to do this or that. First, chances are, you're not REALLY being forced. You're being given a choice you don't like, but you're not being FORCED. Even with the +1 missions, I'm not FORCED to do them. I can go street sweep. I can team with other players. I can level myself and go back. Where "forced" comes in is where I am required to do X to achieve Y outcome. In other words, if I want to play the game at the difficulty level that I prefer, I'm "forced" to do blah.
And again, that IS true and WILL be true for either side of this debate until the difficulty slider comes into play. I personally think it's better for the game's longevity to tip that balance pre-difficulty-slider towards the easier side, but that's just my view. What the devs thing will be the final decision, really.
Personally, I think the game should strive to give you as many options in tailoring your gameplay experience as possible. No one should be put in a situation where they feel they're "forced" to do X or Y.
But, that's in a perfect world, really. Right now, I think the SHORT TERM solution is what's happening currently: the devs are lowering the +1 missions (Which was a bug apparently), and are toning down outcasts and trolls to what they feel is a more manageable level. IN THE MEANTIME, I imagine they are working on a difficulty slider too. It'd be foolish NOT to, given how divided the community has been on this issue, and given the benefit that such a change would offer.
In the meantime, some players may be "forced" to play the game on "easy mode", but rest assured, the devs HAVE heard your concerns and are likely working to address them too.
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What did I do to deserve a response like that, huh? All I did was try to get the thread in a more civil tone and offer a few suggestions. They were serious suggestions, too. I wasn't trying to be patronizing. You don't seem to like the suggestions, and that's fine and dandy, but again, you instantly go straight for personal attacks.
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They weren't serious suggestions. They were stupid suggestions that had already been posted, which you would have seen if you'd actually taken the time to read the thread. I will not gimp myself just because some people can't handle the game and run away to the forums to whine about it to get the difficulty lowered.
It's a damn shame the devs are caving in to the whiners... however I should've known it would happen judging by past experiences with MMOG's. The whiners always win. It's frelling pathetic. The only reason they win, is because the devs read the forums and damn near all of the people that post on the forums are people that have something to gripe about.
Those people would gripe about anything however and shot not be listened to. It doesn't matter what you do, these people will find something to whine about. That's why I would never use the forums as a way to gate player opinion of the game. The forums are unreliable. They're filled with whiners that want everything right now, with no effort and they don't want anyone else to be more powerful than they are.
In-game polls you're forced to answer when you log in are the only way the devs will ever truly know what the playerbase actually thinks about the game.
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It's a damn shame the devs are caving in to the whiners... however I should've known it would happen judging by past experiences with MMOG's. The whiners always win. It's frelling pathetic. The only reason they win, is because the devs read the forums and damn near all of the people that post on the forums are people that have something to gripe about.
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You mean like the whiners who, pre-patch 2, were complaining the game had become too easy? Those kind of whiners?
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In-game polls you're forced to answer when you log in are the only way the devs will ever truly know what the playerbase actually thinks about the game.
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I hate the idea to be on the same page as you, but an in-game poll is not a bad idea. This will finally get that too difficult / not too difficult issue out of the way.
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What did I do to deserve a response like that, huh? All I did was try to get the thread in a more civil tone and offer a few suggestions. They were serious suggestions, too. I wasn't trying to be patronizing. You don't seem to like the suggestions, and that's fine and dandy, but again, you instantly go straight for personal attacks.
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They weren't serious suggestions. They were stupid suggestions that had already been posted, which you would have seen if you'd actually taken the time to read the thread. I will not gimp myself just because some people can't handle the game and run away to the forums to whine about it to get the difficulty lowered.
It's a damn shame the devs are caving in to the whiners... however I should've known it would happen judging by past experiences with MMOG's. The whiners always win. It's frelling pathetic. The only reason they win, is because the devs read the forums and damn near all of the people that post on the forums are people that have something to gripe about.
Those people would gripe about anything however and shot not be listened to. It doesn't matter what you do, these people will find something to whine about. That's why I would never use the forums as a way to gate player opinion of the game. The forums are unreliable. They're filled with whiners that want everything right now, with no effort and they don't want anyone else to be more powerful than they are.
In-game polls you're forced to answer when you log in are the only way the devs will ever truly know what the playerbase actually thinks about the game.
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Believe it or not the devs don't rely on the forums nor listen to whiners. It just happens that the forums typically mirror the feelings of the player majority. I knew a few people who worked for another MMO. On patch day you always rely on datamining/metrics taken from the game and you rely very little on the forums. For a dev considering patch fixes the forums are only good for highlighting bugs that were missed. In all liklihood the devs are basing their decision to ease things up on ingame metrics. They're probably pulling numbers like:
How many players died in the Hollows compared to other zones?
How many players are completing vs. abadoning the new Hollows missions?
How much debt has been handed out in the Hollows?
How much damage have the Hollows villians done to players?
How many players make repeat trips to the Hollows? How many make 1 trip and don't return and at what levels?
How many players have accumulated debt from the patch and how much?
What is the biggest source of debt since the new patch?
Anyhow, you get the point. Not that it matters because even if what I say was proven true, you would still call everyone names and post hissy fits. You'd probably even keep lashing out if required in game polls showed you wrong. I get the distinct impression that you're not happy unless things are going 100% your way. How sad.
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Statesman has announced that this is a bug. A build that fixes this bug is in internal testing, so it'll be fixed before too long.
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The upgades to the outcats and other villian groups was not a bug it was intentional! Only the +1 minions in missions was a bug and that is not the main reason i am so pissed. I am mad because it doesn't just effect the hollows and missions the upgrade to outcast Tsoo and trolls ruins steel canyon and skyway too. The decision to make everythiong harder for the first 20 levels for every toon is perhaps the STUPIDIST one I have ever seen in a MOG. May be the next upgrade will give staus effects to the contaminated. The turotial is way to easy!
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Went from doing quite well on my lvl 19 tank to being a chew toy with the indoor missions of the new patch. Back to my grind on my high lvl avatars since all I get now is a 'Phenomenal Debt' badge with my lower characters. Yes, I know, I'm whining..
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Don't appologiize this is not a whine it is a legitmate concern and you are 100% right!
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They have said the difficulty currently in the game is a bug.
The missions will go back to a lower difficulty after the fix is finished.
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How could giving every villian group in the low levels be a bug! aAre you really that >>>>. It was an INTENTIONAL Boost and was in the Patch notes. Only thwe Mission difficulty was a bug!
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These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.
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Reduce the exp requirement by 95% in The Training Room and we'd all have a reason to be over there.
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Greetings:
Pre post issue 2, if you went into a mission (at least from my experience) the moment you got it at the lowest level you could get it, it was common to run into +1 minions and LT, and a +1 to +2 boss (note singular boss).
What members of our SG and I have been finding out is that now (for all levels ? at least to level 29 ? highest level of our SG) is that all missions now have anywhere from +0 to +2 minions and LT?s, but the largest change is the number of LT and bosses.
I truly love the content changes in issue 2, and the graphic / sound enhancements are awesome.
But, the addition of more bosses and LT?s, are making leveling go from ?it is already a grind at times? to ?it is now insane? to have fun and level.
Thank you.
[/ QUOTE ] The more difficult missions is only part of what this thread is upset with, Mostly we are upset with the insane power boost to the lower level villian groups and since you stated that your 29 you won't see this change. My 29 scapper still rocks and is having very few problems. My level 15 and lower toons are getting they're buts handed to them. At level 20 you used to say wow things just got a lot harder these Freaks are realy tough. Now you'll say Phew i'm glad they aren't ****ing outcat!
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Time to back out patch#2 until it works correctly
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As for the toughness now ... well it is still very playable ... you might just have to think a little (ouch that could hurt 
) but there is always the possibility of having fun. I
Thank you for being Patronizing. You're right no one should ever have a different i dea on what is fun then you do. And about the thinking part thanks i might try that. now that i read your post T feel much better.
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Wasn't patronizing..
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Sorry but you WERE patronizing!
If i know that all missions atm are spawning +1 , then its my choice wether or not to fight them (ie do missions) until its fixed. Im speaking mostly of the new powers OVERPOWERING the low end game. Thats it, thats all, and those powers dont SEEM to be given out as a bug.
Heya, figured I'd update on my lvl 9 Fire/Stone tank trying to do the first mission in the hollows after not being able to do it at level 8 and leveling up to lvl 9.
Well, it went a little better this time. I actually made it to Electric Eel. Unfortunately, I was still unable to beat him. Actually, I barely scratched him hehe. That's after having saved up some inspirations just for him. My first attempt I lasted about 10 seconds before I had to run away. The second attempt, after having used all my inspirations, was even quicker, as expected, and I was unable to complete the mission. After asking for help outside to finish off the boss for about 15 minutes, I gave up and logged onto my little blaster.
Ok, my blaster made it through that first mission fairly easily, but then the second contact, Flux, is way back in the zone. I reached him after dodging purples for awhile and completed the 2 kill X missions after running back to the front of the zone dodging purples and finding some low levels to arrest. Then, my first door mission sends me even further back into even deeper purple groups of mobs that seem to be stacked on top of each other. I died the next 3 attempts to reach this door mission before I gave up, either from groups spawning right in from of me and getting one shotted, or from just not seeing the groups in time and getting one shotted, or from not ever even seeing the mobs, and getting one shotted.
After having given up there, I decided to play my lvl 18 MA/SR scrapper, but the only missions available were Tsoo. So I tried this out, but after being slowed to a crawl with caltrops, then chained stunned to death by 2 ink men, even having a discipline inspiration on, I logged off that character too.
Finally, I logged on my lvl 32 scrapper, ran a DE mission, all lvl 32's 33's, and completed the mission in about 15 minutes, completing all 5 floors of the mission. For some reason, even while running DE, and never using a discipline, I only got stunned once for a brief time.
If the purpose of this patch was to make the higher lvl content harder, it's failed miserably IMO. It has made the lower lvl content much tougher though. I don't care if people want to do the hollows, whatever you like, but I would request to be able to keep my contacts in KR instead of having them send me over to the hollows to die. I'll take it upon myself just to avoid Tsoo missions from now on, as I know the caltrops just make so many people so much happier. 
At first I liked groups like the Outcasts having more varitey of powers, but now they are just too tough. Low level players don't have the powers at that point to deal with them. This and the +1 mission problem are being worked on, but man, it can't come soon enough. Missions are just plain painful right now. Up until this point, I've been extremely happy with Cryptic, but Issue 2 is a mess. I've never seen an update with so many bugs. I can't help but wonder how something like this happened when it was on test for a while.
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3) None of Solo_4114 suggestions said anything about "powers". He did mention the use of inspirations, which I notice *you* seem to pop like steroids. Why do you do that? Is the game too tough for you do "unenhanced"?
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Wrong. Here is the direct quote from solo's post:
"3.) Try fighting "with one hand tied behind your back." In other words, take on challenges where you refuse to use certain powers or inspirations, or unslot your attacks (or just don't upgrade them)."
He said, don't use certain powers, or don't slot the powers. Here's another idea, why not purposefully die to put yourself into debt. That way you will level really slow, and never get the good powers.
- felicity