Kazarak

So in terms of strategy/tactics a bad group says "No, we already have a Kinetics Defender" and a good group adds a 2nd or a thrid. Same with Bubbly Defenders. A group of 3 Kintetic Defends, 1 tank, 3 Blasters/Scrappers and a Controller is probably one of the better groups.

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Please don't turn this thread into politics. It has no place here.


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Again we are subjected to facts by assertion. Political philosophy permeates our social interactions, of which this forum is one. That you do not recognize such does not change it. You state politics have no place here and I state they cannot help but have a place here. Of course, you have TRUTH and I am simply too stupid to see it.


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Oh my...Try posting political statements on a random sampling of threads, and then come back and report the reactions you get....NOT a good idea....

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We only fight yellow to an occasional red in The Hollows as well as Steel with the new 'unbeatable' Outcasts and Trolls. How can that be less XP? Plus, believe it or not, not all of us are primarily max-XP/hour driven. Yes, it is nice to level, but I like to experience this now-more-nicely-fleshed-out game at each of those earlier levels.


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I didn't say less xp I said more xp

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I fear you have mis-apprehended the core issue. This is NOT a question taking greens or reds. This is a question of having at least 1 zone where a more organized/tactical style of team play can be challenged in the earlier levels by reds rather than mowing through them like in Perez or the pre-content 2 Steel.

I would guess Cryptic did not and does not have the resource to populate The Hollows with all new mob types so they beefed up Outcasts and Trolls. As a result Steel got a LOT more challenging, maybe even undoable, for street soloists. Care must also be used travelling there, but it is by no means the horror 'some' claim it to be. The soloists still have Perez and door missions with a hopefully-soon-implemented difficulty slider. (Something a lot of us suggested in beta BTW.)


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If the enemies of the Hollows weren't populated in SC and Skyway I wouldn't have any problem with a zone that's harder than the others. My reply to everyone on this thread would be "just don't go there (Hollows)".

As for the "mis-apprehended the core issue" part...Huh?

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It is interesting to observe the 2nd to last stage of neo-liberal truth dissemination. In phase 1, through keen insight not available to the unwashed masses, TRUTH is grasped by the anointed. (In this case TRUTH is t,at mobs with powers should only start to appear anywhere at all beginning at 12th level.) The anointed one now explains truth to the peasants. When some of the peasants continue to hold a different point of view the anointed one nobly and gently re-explains to them TRUTH. When some peasants even then persist to wallow in ignorance the anointed one now somewhat less nobly and less gently re-explains TRUTH. When it finally becomes obvious these dullards are incapable of understanding TRUTH the anointed one throws up his hands in disgust and states succinctly a scathing non-sequitur. <--- where we are now

In the final phase the anointed one realizes it will be necessary to do 'what's best' for us morons whether we realize it or not. "We'll thank him later." This will likely take the form, and probably already has taken the form, of many PMs and /petitions to the devs to 'fix' the 'problem' in CoH.

"EVERYBODY hates this. Please fix it ASAP."

Rocinante awaits noble anointed one. Let this dullard no more delay your tipping.

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First off my initial reaction to this is:

Second, neo liberalism? What you described can be potentially true of anyone whether they be moderates, liberals, conservatives, anarchists, and whatever else. Please don't turn this thread into politics. It has no place here.

This thread has been going on and on for far too long. It's at the point where it's like a tennis match, I hit the ball to my opponent, who returns it to me, then I return it to him...and on and on...

Let me just say this, lets review the 2 contrasting views against their extremes.

Pro-Challenge player takes on a fight so easy it's silly:
Most the time he won't think twice about it. Maybe he'll think "too easy", or "boring..." but he'll shrug it off and move on to the next fight. I understand that lots and lots of these "boring" matches might solicit a more harsh reaction, however lets just keep it on the single fight for now...

Anti-Challenge player takes on a fight so hard they fail:
The player is frustrated and angered.

Which reaction is more severe? If you're a game designer, which of these 2 are good to keep in mind when designing a level/challenge?

Take each of those examples and stretch them out to the long term. The pro-challenge player eventually gets weary of the game and moves on. The anti-challenge gets frustrated and angered and moves on MUCH sooner.

Now you guys can say, "Just take blues and greens" until the end of time. I can retort with, "Just take yellows/oranges" until the end of time...

Lets compare those 2.

My plan = Same result, you get challenged, the rest get easy and we both get more xp

Your plan = Same result, you get challenged, the rest get easy and we both get less xp

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While I appreciate you taking the considerable time to share those thoughts & replies with us, they are mostly moot. The devs are tuning the Outcasts, removing the +1 bug and making things easier again.

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, it ain't over 'till it's over. The changes in question are only being tested now. Game balance in MMOs is always up for grabs in any case. This entire discussion is about live content being adjusted for difficulty.


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I think you have slim to no chance but good luck anyway.

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You need to understand that you are in a minority.

That's not entirely clear, and it wouldn't be relevant even if it was. An argument is correct or incorrect on its merits, not according to how many people accept or reject it.


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As I said before, 99% of the player base are not on the boards.

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While I sympathize with your plight, you'll still be capable of finding your challenge in yellows/oranges and when the slider comes, in missions.

That is the game's death warrant in one sentence.


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Why? It's the same mobs just harder. You've been spoon fed the white = 50/50 chance to live to much in MMOs. If an MMO wants to change that to yellow or orange or even puke green then so what? It's the same thing just different colors.

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My character IS super. I love that!

That's what blue cons are for.


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Again, it's just a color or more precisely a name. We may as well be talking about you wanting to take puke greens and insisting I should take happy pink.

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Kazarak,

Your assertion those of us who enjoy the early game 'difficulty' are in the minority is laughable. This board represents an insignificant number of players in CoH and this thread represents an insignificant number of those on this board. Meaningful conclusion CANNOT be drawn from such sample sizes.


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Wrong. The devs have said many times that according to the numbers these boards represent less than 1% of the player base. I am certain they drawing their conclusions about the difficulty of the Hollows from in game metrics.

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We all realize how passionate you are about this. Thank you for aiding in the return of CoH to the 'all-zones-boring' mode you seem to love so much.


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If the game is boring to you then why are you playing? At any rate, your sarcasm is being misdirected, direct it at 99% of the players.

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Yes, I can get a character to 12 in a couple of days play which is where you say the challenge should just start to ramp up. But, why should have I have to be bored every SINGLE TIME I DO SO?!?

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You put that boredom on yourself. You want excitement, take yellows. You want missions full of enemies, take on a partner just for bumping the difficulty.

Most of the board regulars know I've been quite vocal about easing up on the difficulty. However I have to say, removing the Outcasts powers and replacing them w/guns is a mistake (imo). They need to be tweaked, but not removed. They are Outcasts for a reason afterall. I say tone them down, maybe a bit more than they are on test, but don't remove them.

While I appreciate you taking the considerable time to share those thoughts & replies with us, they are mostly moot. The devs are tuning the Outcasts, removing the +1 bug and making things easier again.

You need to understand that you are in a minority. While I sympathize with your plight, you'll still be capable of finding your challenge in yellows/oranges and when the slider comes, in missions.

For the rest of us, part of CoHs charm is in it's ease. You really feel like a superhero, it's unlike any other MMO in that respect. My character IS super. I love that! Any effort to take that away detracts from that feeling. When the slider is released I'll probably make use of it to up the challenge a bit. I do appreciate a good challenge, despite what you might think. I just think this game has found a nice niche in it's ease, a niche that fits well with it's genre (superheroes).

If you connect the dots you can place Statesman in Roswell, NM in the 40s, AND at at the Kennedy Assasination, AND in the Nixon administration, AND he was Oliver Norths right hand man. I think he was in Cambodia too but I'm still researching that.

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At first I liked groups like the Outcasts having more varitey of powers, but now they are just too tough. Low level players don't have the powers at that point to deal with them. This and the +1 mission problem are being worked on, but man, it can't come soon enough. Missions are just plain painful right now. Up until this point, I've been extremely happy with Cryptic, but Issue 2 is a mess. I've never seen an update with so many bugs. I can't help but wonder how something like this happened when it was on test for a while.

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We gave feedback on the Outcasts being over powered on test. The +1 mission bug though I don't remember seeing. Could be it was there and I missed, or it could be it's a bug that didn't make it onto test and went straight to live.

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You mean after the nerf. Once again the vocal minority (the whiny people on the forums) will get their way in yet another game. It's utter BS. The game should be challenging from level 1 to 50. Period. Otherwise people will fly through the first ten, twelve levels playing one way and get smacked around when they enter Steel Canyon and face some Tsoo.

They'll whine and gripe about it and maybe quit when they get frustrated because they didn't learn how to play the game properly in the lower levels.

People that want a challenge should not be forced to skip content (missions) just to find something challenging to fight. Less - skilled players can group to do their missions or street hunt til the missions are easier for them. Either way, they get all the content. If we did things your stupid way, the bored players would only be left with street hunting.

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You truely have no clue how game development works do you? Do you really think the devs simply read the message board and act on what's said here? While I'll admit, there is the rare occasion they do but for the most part they do not. They rely on their own in game metrics to make decisions about what to change and what not to. Why rely on numbers from a message board, which equal a few hundred, when they can rely on numbers from the game which equal 180,000??? To assume they rely on the message is total and complete ignorance and insanity.

As for the bored players, as you call them, they will get their mission challenge when the difficulty slider is done. In the meantime you can always kindly ask a friend or SG mate to join your team just to bump up the difficulty. Then take the bumped mission solo. I've done that more than a few times and it works great.

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As far as I am concerned, this puts to rest any complaints about the difficulty in the Hollows. The zone can be soloed. If it can be soloed, then it is not too difficult for groups, and as it is a Hazard Zone it is intended that groups hunt here. If anything, the zone may be too easy.

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Look, I appreciate you taking the time to make the videos and share them with us. However this only proves that 1 build played by a skilled player can solo the Hollows.

Does this mean that every one and every build can? No. Look at the quote from me you used in your post. I said "99% of the player base can't do this". If I could drive like an Indy Racecar Pro then do I have a case for upping the speed limit dramtically? Is it fair for me to say, "Well everyone else should learn it at my skill level". No, that's not fair, nor is it wise.

You want a challenge, and after the fix yellows and oranges will provide that for you. While whites will provide it for the majority of players. Like I said before, white = optimal, which is the majority. Yellow/orange = skilled, which is your level.

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What did I do to deserve a response like that, huh? All I did was try to get the thread in a more civil tone and offer a few suggestions. They were serious suggestions, too. I wasn't trying to be patronizing. You don't seem to like the suggestions, and that's fine and dandy, but again, you instantly go straight for personal attacks.

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They weren't serious suggestions. They were stupid suggestions that had already been posted, which you would have seen if you'd actually taken the time to read the thread. I will not gimp myself just because some people can't handle the game and run away to the forums to whine about it to get the difficulty lowered.

It's a damn shame the devs are caving in to the whiners... however I should've known it would happen judging by past experiences with MMOG's. The whiners always win. It's frelling pathetic. The only reason they win, is because the devs read the forums and damn near all of the people that post on the forums are people that have something to gripe about.

Those people would gripe about anything however and shot not be listened to. It doesn't matter what you do, these people will find something to whine about. That's why I would never use the forums as a way to gate player opinion of the game. The forums are unreliable. They're filled with whiners that want everything right now, with no effort and they don't want anyone else to be more powerful than they are.

In-game polls you're forced to answer when you log in are the only way the devs will ever truly know what the playerbase actually thinks about the game.

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Believe it or not the devs don't rely on the forums nor listen to whiners. It just happens that the forums typically mirror the feelings of the player majority. I knew a few people who worked for another MMO. On patch day you always rely on datamining/metrics taken from the game and you rely very little on the forums. For a dev considering patch fixes the forums are only good for highlighting bugs that were missed. In all liklihood the devs are basing their decision to ease things up on ingame metrics. They're probably pulling numbers like:

How many players died in the Hollows compared to other zones?

How many players are completing vs. abadoning the new Hollows missions?

How much debt has been handed out in the Hollows?

How much damage have the Hollows villians done to players?

How many players make repeat trips to the Hollows? How many make 1 trip and don't return and at what levels?

How many players have accumulated debt from the patch and how much?

What is the biggest source of debt since the new patch?


Anyhow, you get the point. Not that it matters because even if what I say was proven true, you would still call everyone names and post hissy fits. You'd probably even keep lashing out if required in game polls showed you wrong. I get the distinct impression that you're not happy unless things are going 100% your way. How sad.

Ugh, I keep seeing posts I missed. My apologies for not putting these all together in one.

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Keep in mind that the difficulty of this game is based solely on the discretion of the player.

I am sorry, but this is just not true. A trivially easy game remains unchallenging even if you don't put 'X' in the center square. Achievment in this game is currently meaningless; you can get to 50 entirely by fighting battles you can't lose.

If people can choose their own difficulty, what's the point of having Controllers, Defenders or Tankers, classes meant to function in support roles? Everyone will pick fights they don't need groups for. Should everyone be able to solo like a Scrapper, just do away with the idea of support classes entirely? If they could the game would be even more ridiculously easy when they grouped -- and in any case, what's the point of an MMO in which everyone solos? The developers could never include content that needed any real teamwork to overcome, because the necessary support roles wouldn't exist. Support classes need the game to be difficult so that other players will value and appreciate their help.


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They can do this now and they dont need Controllers, Defenders or any suppoters if they dont want them. Just solo missions and hunt in non Hazard zones.


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Catering to the less skilled players only means that the skilled ones get xp faster... you're not about to go complaining about that, are you?

Yes, I am. If the game isn't challenging for everyone, it isn't challenging for anyone.


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Huh? Different people play at different skill levels. We have a good system now with the fixes coming. The slider will make it even better. If you want a challenge you take yellows, if less skilled do they take whites. You have to understand whites = optimal for the majority. NOT optimal for you.

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YOU STILL GET A CHALLENGE POST FIX AND YOU GET MORE XP. Why is this so hard to understand? Plus the players less skilled than you get more xp because they can take whites. Both sides win. What's wrong with this? You want to lose?

I understand it just fine, it's just wrong.


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See my statement above. There is nothing wrong with this because it caters to the majority of players.

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It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun.

No, it isn't. It is important that they be challenging, that players learn -- fast -- that they will have to use tactics in order to win fights, and that they may be faced with adversaries they just can't beat without help.


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Look back at the most successful games of the past. ALL of them prove you wrong.

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It's a fact of life that most people will quit something FAR, FAR more quickly if a task is too hard, than if it's too easy.

I don't accept that, and I don't accept that current CoH difficulty is too hard by any stretch of the imagination.


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I've worked with focus groups before. I realize you don't know me but trust me, it's overwhelming common. As for CoH difficulty, it's not to you but it is to other people. You and others keep insisting that players need to get better, well some just can't. Not everyone is the same as you.

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We don't know yet which powers are being removed. It could be a bad guy has Flares, and Fire Bolt and Flares is being removed. It could be they have unseen powers such as Stamina and they are being removed.

They hardly have any powers to begin with. Outcast Minions are using one ranged elemental power (except for Crushers), and one melee elemental power. That's it. LTs get the same, only stronger, plus a support power. Bosses are the only ones with any real spread of powers.

Any "unseen powers" they might have must be nearly insignificant. They sure don't have Stamina -- LTs and Bosses burn out their end in nothing flat.


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This is rendered moot by Benzigami's analysis of the changes.

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I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE.

No, you are not. You are pro-false-challenge. You want the game to look challenging, but not really be challening. You want people to be able to choose their difficulty, to which I suggest you may have confused this with a console game.

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What the hell is that? Are you a mind reader? You might be skilled in the game but you're certainly not in reading comprehension. Go back and read my posts, I state that I want more challenge in the later levels numerous times. As for wanting a slider, the devs want this too so do a very, very vast majority of players.

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If the two groups can keep the variety of powers, but possess no status effects and damage somewhere between where they are now and where they were before, it'd probably work out well, without ruining their uniqueness.

Right, because mobs that a level 5 Scrapper can fight 8-10 at a time are just too powerful.

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You do realize that is incredibly rare don't you? I think it's a safe bet that 99% of the player base can't do this. Short of seeing a demo file I'm VERY skeptical that even you can do this, especially if it's in the hollows and the mobs are even conned.

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Again, "but what about the children?" They'll cope.


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This is just silliness. It's a fact of life, and part of human nature that people in general, are more prone to quit something that is too hard than too easy. Easy is always a MUCH safer default. I think the difficulty should be challenging but it should be built up to that level. Not *wham!* challenge.

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If she came here on the first night she played, she probably wouldn't have bothered coming back.

A true newbie isn't going to make level 5 in her first session, either.


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You're avoiding the point of his statement. If his wife got to that point the 2nd or 3rd play session the result could be the same.

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On your first night playing the game, you're so overwhelmed with new things that you don't even know what's important.

That is no excuse. If you're overwhelmed you should be paying attention to notices like that.


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Here is some worldy advice that help you greatly. Everyone does not equal you. Meaning not everyone can excerise the same focus that you can. Show a little more understanding. If games were all made and catered to your level the industry would likely crash.

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Some people don't play the game for challenge.

The Sims Online is <--- that way.


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There's some good advice for you. How about everyone who is not up to the challenge quit! Yeah, less money in the pockets of Cryptic is always a good thing. I like this arguement, nothing says compassion & understanding like a "just quit' statement.

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For this game to continue to be as successful as it has, it has to have broad appeal.

The most successful commercial mud to date is EQ (no, I'm not counting Lineage), and it is 100% geared towards PvE achievment. So no, this game does not have to appeal to the lowest common denominator to succeed.


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Actually EQ did succeed because of it's mass appeal. More housewives and non gamers played it than ever before (at that time, before the Sims & Roller Coaster). How is EQ being PvE supporting an arguement AGAINST it's mass appeal? If anyting it is the opposite. Plus, EQ is very easy the first 10 levels. All games want to make someone feel good. A great way to do that is to flatter someones ego by making things slightly easy. Good games do that, hook you, then start introducing more and more challenge gradually.

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But the simple fact is that if the game has no challenge, it will become boring to everyone, even the My Little Pony crowd.

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I agree with this however I think the challenge should be built up gradually, not suddenly.

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It can be a veteran who lost friends, and a limb in war for all you know.

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Aurora would say they are gimped and need to re-roll.

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Hehe, that's a good one. Thanks for making me chuckle

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You need to choose a new label because calling someone coward sparks very harsh, angry reactions. This is not an incredibly wise course of action on your part, and if you continue to do so I will contniue to report it until you either are stopped or banned. Period.

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So which of these lables should I apply to the quitters that run away from their mission instead of finding a way to beat it?

Synonyms: alarmist, baby, big baby, caitiff, chicken, chicken liver, chicken-heart, craven, cur, dastard, deserter, faint-of-heart, fraidy cat, funk, gutless, gutless wonder, invertebrate, jellyfish, lily-liver, malingerer, milksop, milquetoast, mollycoddle, mouse, nerd, pessimist, poltroon, punk, quitter, rabbit, recreant, scaredy-cat, shirk, shirker, sissy, skulker, sneak, turkey, weak sister, weakling, white liver, yellow, yellow-belly.

Mouse or rabbit seems good. Let the little rabbits run back to their holes while the wolves go out to play and have fun.

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A. You aren't just using it in that context. You're using it to describe everyone who disagrees with you. Even if you did use it in that context, it is STILL NAME CALLING AND A VIOLATION OF THE BOARD GUIDELINES.

B. It's incredibly distateful, disrespectful, childish and uncalled for. You don't know who you're using it against. It can be a veteran who lost friends, and a limb in war for all you know. Regardless it's uncalled for.

You need to choose a new label because calling someone coward sparks very harsh, angry reactions. This is not an incredibly wise course of action on your part, and if you continue to do so I will contniue to report it until you either are stopped or banned. Period.

Weren't you already warned by CuppaJoe and had 1 post removed, and another deleted for name calling? AGAIN, LEARN HOW TO ARGUE WITHOUT NAME CALLING!

It's ok Koyote, I reported her, and CuppaJoe erased one post, edited another and PM'd her a warning. At this point I think we should move the discussion on, or drop it.

But thank you for the thoughts anyway

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Again, why should I be forced to go out of my way to play a challenging game? Why should I be forced to play "dumb" or not use enhancements... etc, when it's much easier for you cowards to learn to play better? Why should I have to force people to join a group, wait for me to enter the mission, and then kick them out just to get a mission that isn't a cakewalk?


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You know that's about 3rd personal attack you've made and I'm tired of it. I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE. Yet, you are still attacking, this time calling me, and others "cowards".

You now have the privilege of being the first on my ignore list. LEARN HOW TO ARGUE WITHOUT ATTACKING/INSULTING PEOPLE!!! I'm not thin skinned, I just refuse to argue with someone who resorts to name calling. I got over that after the 6th grade!

btw - personal attacks are a violation of the board guidelines and you are being reported. This has happened too many times now to be overlooked.

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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).

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I'm sorry at this point, I'm really starting to think if CoH will have any staying power - the catering to those of 'What? I have to consider my actions before I jump into a group of 15 MOBs and have a miniscule amout of strategy/tactics?? That's NOT herioc' crowd is starting to get to me.

Aside from the 36 scrapper I have a 14 SS/Invun Tank and a 13 Gravity/FF Controller and with only a small adjustment, they can still soso every type of MOB thery could before with all the changes (including the +1 MOB bit). My controller couldn't solo lifetap or high regen rate Bosses before and still can't but the others were doable.

The game was way to easy before; and issue 2 fixed a lot of that in mine and a lot of my friends opinions; but to see Statesman so quickly backtrack out of this and neuter the game back down doesn't make me feel good about the direction the dev team seems bent on taking CoH to.

Too easy = way baring, and I won't pay to play a game that at it's base bores me no matter how pretty the graphics are.

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You can't take harder enemies? Does some phantom spirit prevent you from assaulting yellows or oranges instead of whites? When street hunting YOU are in charge of your own difficulty. Now for door missions, they're adding a slider, which will help. In the meantime, you can always ask a friend, or even a stranger to join your team, not to team, but just so you can bump up the difficulty of your mission.

Excellent work agent Benzigami. 5 starts for you! You definatly didn't have to go through the trouble of posting that giant list and it is appreciated

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I pulled up an old lvl 6 alt and ran a hollows mission. It was challenging and a blast.

a lvl 6 MA/SR and I had to use tactics to stay alive. I had to plot out my exit before attacking. It was cool.

Shame its gonna be nerfed.

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Won't the upcoming mission difficulty slider give you the same rush? In the meantime can't you ask people to join you, not to team, but so you can scale up your mission in difficulty? This works great if you're flying solo and like a challenge. And if your outdoors and fighting, you can switch to taking yellows instead of whites.