sorry, but the low end (1-20) is NOT fun now.
By
7onTest,
Posted on: 2004-09-22 06:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I hate to say it.. but it all boils down to tactics..
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no it really doesnt...for starters the "tactics" you folks refer to are childs play because most of us can manage their endurance, use inspirations and select targets carefully but there are just too many things that are simply impossible.
My lv 15 scrapper doing a door mission with +1 MoBs, I like the XP and the challenge from the minions then I come to my goal, 1 lv 16 Tsoo boss and 1 lv 16 Troll boss.
They are all alone and the last Mobs standing in the mission. They cannot be split, either by direct attacks nor by proximity pulls, they always come together.
The Tsoos distance attack does 44 damage, the troll does 87. Did I mention they hit every time? The first thing the Tsoo does is using the whirlwind power then closing in. Now as I actually HAVE to be in melee range to kill em I can enjoy the second-lasting fight from the ground most of the time. The Tsoo Boss does 115 damage with his melee attacks (okay they are specials [kick] but wheres the difference if all he does is the kick attack?) the troll does 87 damage with regular melee attacks.
I think I tried this fight 5 or 6 times every time with a different inspiration set-up. The most successfull fight I had so far lasted around 20 seconds when I popped 8 respites but still i did close to no damage.
Using defense inspirations is the same as spinkling them with water, I dont notice any difference.
Fights lasted from 5 to 20 seconds ending with me dead on the ground.
Yes....let me hear your uber tactic that noone else knows. I call this encounter impossible.
Oh getting a group you say? Yes how stupid of me, I forgot I love enforced grouping! Personally I group when I want to not when the game dictates to me that I have to thats why I loved the old pre-patch CoH better.
When you see people complaining about the difficulty I DOUBT very much they complain about the +1 and +2 MoBs in missions or the occasional hit they get more. What they are talking about is running into enemies like I described above and getting owned without so much as a single chance. What kind of tactic do you use versus a lv 6 MoB using lv 18 powers??? What tactics do you use versus lv 18 MoB using lv 32 powers? Run like hell???
When people call others impatient and call on their precious "tactics" they usually refer to the minions which ARE NO PROBLEM FOR ANYBODY!
Since patch 2 I came across enough encounters in missions designed for my level that are impossible to make aka a bug. I dont have a target choice in missions either. I was doing several missions with teams of 2-4 people and got owned anyway because some of the powers used by bosses (yes, even AoE mezz at lower levels) simply CANNOT be countered or fought. Some challenge that is.
I m sure if you were a fly and you had to go against an M1 Abrams you would also say....."hey, use tactics you know...I have fun"
/bleh
Just because Statesman stepped up doesn't mean anyone pulled
your chain, gamerboy.
Now, why don't you make your little argument about the forums
not representing the populace and I will ask you about the
number of e-mails that support received, again...
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I'm NOT afraid. Because I think he meant "up the difficulty" for the Higher levels. Hmph!
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so then we all agree that he f!!cked up royally for letting the changes designed for higher levels slip into the low level range too?
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Do you ever use the Discipline inspirations that drop constantly?
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well for one when I do door missions there are times I dont get a single inspiration for most of the mission, yeah you know I dont get an inspiration drop every arrest no sir, not me. Also I usually go for a mix of inspirations because I actually like to have 1 or 2 enrages, 2 to 4 respites and who knows what. So what do you suggest when my 2 disciplines are used?
Leave the mission cross the whole city to get 2 more then run back and rinse repeat? woot, great idea, love the downtime, very bor......errr....challenging.
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Giving the mobs in the lower levels powers: design decision
Giving them plethora of strong stuns: Design error
+1 Level mobs: bug
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So the thing that actually is great about the patch (the +1 MoBs) is a BUG while the thing that is the suck (IMO - the more powers to low levels) is a design decision? LMAO, the more I read the more I wanne cancel.
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Today I logged on with my 17 Scrapper for the first time since Update 2 went live, and I will not log back on with him until the difficulty settings are fixed.
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me exactly with my lv 30 blater and lv 15 scrapper. I m toying around with some low levels at the moment but am finding more and more of these fun-destroying moments right now.
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Again you have no concept of how beta testing works and if you expect bugs not to happen then I suggest you stick with console games
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lol that makes me love. By now we all know the diffrence between a bug and game-design. Well I agree with Veg that these so-called bugs are by game-design which is crippling my trust in Cryptic a lot. I mean how blind and short-sighted do you have to be to really believe that THOSE changes will make it more fun???
Some of em are great dont get me wrong but like I said in previous posts, they got a lil overboard.
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Posting mock pictures of Statesman doesn't necessarily lend you credibility. And it doesn't it make you seem funnier to the rest of us...it just makes you look petty.
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I found it funny 
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5) The mobs having high level powers (which they are fixing, so I've been told. If it hasn't been fixed already).
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as to wednesday sept 22nd it wasnt
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The developers of this game cannot understand that min/maxers
will always blaze through a game, but with no PvP or economy it
doesn't matter how many people hit the level cap.
One of this game's biggest appeals is making new characters.
With the way the game is set up now, who are the only people
that will take their alt to the level cap ??
Min/maxers.
What is the percentage of players that are min/maxers ?
If the playerbase is composed of a majority of min/maxers then
retaining them by slowing them down is good business.
If the majority of the playerbase is casual, or even totally new
to MMORPGS, what will retention be when those players have to
grind thousands of mobs to see character advancement ?
The game is leaning hard towards min/maxers and since that is
the case I no longer care.
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kudos to you Vegetator, you expressed what I wanted to say with even better words, damn sometimes I wish english was my native language
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Thanks for, yet again, telling us the +1 mobs weren't on purpose.
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doh so the best thing about the patch wasnt on purpose??? hahaha thats funny
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The wandering patrols i don't mind, they just make you think on your feet and plan ahead.
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I dont mind them either, just forcing you to keep your eyes open during fights and prepare to adjust. Wandering patrols are a form of challenge I like just like the +1 MoBs (which sadly is a bug /sigh). What I HATE are the impossible situations that were introduced mostly with bosses at lower levels now.
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I have to agree with this 100%. I also like the feel of the Hollows as a group-centric zone. However, this zone makes Perez look literally, like a walk in the park. I was part of a group (all good friends) that involved levels 10-11. This zone is nightmarish and the missions within it even worse. My Invulnerability tank felt like a punching bag. This was after the stun fix. Between normal melee stuns and knockdowns, there was very little I was adding to the group. I have unyielding stance... oh yeah... unyielding. So while I handle the 1 or 2 outcasts that are willing to melee, the rest of my group dies to the 8 other mobs using elemental ranged attacks. I don't have Provoke yet, I'm sure that would help... well, it would help me die faster maybe. This is a decent balanced group of Controller, Blaster, Defender, Tanker. We like to think we're fairly competent, but the entire experience was, in total, not fun. The Outcasts are throwing around lots of powers within one single group... Hurricane, Lighting, Fire and Ice, not to mention Shockers healing! This is a big departure from the Game As We Knew It(TM). Not even Boomtown was ever this aggravating, and it has a higher level range I believe. I would LOVE to see this kind of mixed attack group in the higher levels. That kind of varied assault makes grouping far more interesting and gives all archetypes and powersets a chance to shine. But at the levels of the Hollows, it's just overwhelming.
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again....what I m thinking with less agressive words
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PEOPLE, STOP HARASSING THE MAN. HE HAS UPDATE #3 TO THINK ABOUT!!!
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no, please let him fix patch 2 before he goes off to handle update 3.
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T IS GETTING FIXED.
PRE LVL22 Difficulty increase WAS NOT INTENDED !!!
PRE LVL22 Difficulty increase WAS NOT INTENDED !!!
PRE LVL22 Difficulty increase WAS NOT INTENDED !!!
PRE LVL22 Difficulty increase WAS NOT INTENDED !!!
PRE LVL22 Difficulty increase WAS NOT INTENDED !!!
PRE LVL22 Difficulty increase WAS NOT INTENDED !!!
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take some valium please, it ll help you get your life into perspective
Sharph, you hit nails upon nails in the head. I'm impressed. Thanks!
I've shelved my 15 and under characters until something is done. Any mish they send me into the hollows on is either avoided or shelved. And, since everyone else feels their opinon is valid, lemme toss mine in. +1, +2 mobs in mish's, not fun for my 15 and under characters. Seriously, how can my basic attacks fair against mobs that are stronger, use less end for their attacks, and have attacks that are at least +10 lvls above their current. There's no tactic here asside from putting your low lvl charactrers on hold until it's fixed. and I'm confident it will be fixed as soon as they can.
Thanks States for keeping us updated.
Love the wandering patrols.
Love the +1 missions. Makes one work for their toys. Played 2 characters through levels 1-9 in the past 2 days (scrapper and defender). It was amazing. Working together, paying attention, actually being scared of bad guys.
I loved it.
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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.
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It is a bug. Petition away - though we're working on a fix.
Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.
These are most certainly reactions; had we seen this better on the Training Room server we would have changed each and every one.
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Do not try to pin this on us. You go away for conventions. Its your ball. You dropped it.
Edit: The creature that you gave more powers to at higher levls are stillwoth the same xp.
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What is funny to ONE person, is quite the pysche enlightener to MANY others.
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And that you deem yourself so "above it all" contains a few
volumes on your character as well.
Don't laugh, no sweat..
But as soon as you climbed onto your soapbox to point the
finger you became exactly like the one you are pointing at.
Do you feel like the "big man" now ?
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I like the IDEAS behind making missions stronger, but between the fact that there are alot more baddies in missions, that the low end mob got a great boos in powers (nothing like a lvl 8 baddy with lvl 18-36 powers, and crowd control befor you even get a defense for it) that minions are harder to hit now just makes lvls 1-20 feel like WORK not play. Things need to be looked at. With no pvp, no economy, litle to no items, no bases to build starting a new character was mostly my only way to escape the grind of my high lvl character. Now thats not fun either.
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Statesman, I'm glad that you've acknowledge the bugs for the lower end play and have assured us that a fix is coming.
I really enjoyed CoH up to Issue 2, and will again once the issues fixed. Like the quoted poster, myself and my friends frequently switch to lower level characters from time to time for a change of pace - and to try out new costumes / ATs / Powers .
But now the lower levels are simply frustration. So our playtime has gone from "all available times" (5 weeknights for at least 2-3 hours, plus most of the weekend) to about 2 nights of the week, and 4-8 hrs of the weekend. The upper levels are still fun, but the lower levels - we don't feel "heroic" anymore. (We tend to solo our characters to 10th, and start grouping around the 10th to 12th range. With different work schedules in real life, we've found this works pretty good - so we have a LOT of lower level characters each ).
My younger brother just started, and with his 6th character is wondering what we see in the game as fun... I've had to reassure him it wasn't always like this, there's a few major bugs right now, and if he tries again in a couple weeks it'll be fun.
Looking forward to all the fixes, and the game being fun and addictive. Meanwhile, catching up in real life and taking reduced playtime for awhile.
PS: With devs working hard at fixing the bugs - If the fans starting sending the devs pizza, would it speed up the fixes ? We could start a tab for cryptic at a local pizza place and you just order what you want/need as you work away....
I have to agree that I find the game much more challenging now. I might be in the minority but I like a challenge when I play the game. For me, the game is more fun now but I can understand those that don't like it. Not to worry, it will be fixed soon anyways.
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Fred_Savage
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Ya know, Savage, you were a really cute kid on that TV show...
Didn't stick with ya as ya grew up, but hey, that's another story.
And yes, I would like fries with that.
Wondering what all the fuss was about, I took a few of my many low level tester alts for a spin.
My opinion's this: if you've played the game before and you know how it works, it's now a fun challenge. But if you're on your first character? Things are gonna be overwhelming quick. I'd personally like to see a happy medium struck between the current situation and where it was before, where those of us that're enjoying the new challenge may continue to find these situations, and where those that are still learning the ropes, or those that want more to relax, can still do these things.
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I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).
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I appreciate that you're admitting a mistake, Statesman. But you're admitting the wrong mistake.
Consider my post about pre-L25 difficulty, which clearly states that there are +1 mobs in missions. I know you read this thread since you responded not just once, but twice, both times claiming that +1 mobs did not appear except as replacements to front-loaded missions. In between those two posts of yours were posts saying that the +1 mobs were more widespread, so I know the problem was clearly laid out. Not to mention the hard numbers I posted from a comparison of playing on Live and Test. Note that all of these are dated from before the Issue 2 patch went live, in the first case nearly a week before.
Please don't insult our intelligence by saying you guys didn't know about the problem. I appreciate the admission of mistakes, but unless you're admitting the correct mistake, it won't help you to correct it in the future.
Skip
My Char. List and Market Transactions
HeroStats Developer
Legion of Valor
Iron Eagles
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Thank you very much for the quality reading, if you are serious, and I hope you're not, you should consider that playing like a total moron often makes a game hard no matter how easy it is.(Of course obviously you fit into this category) And if you knew anything about other MMOs like EQ you would realize that CoH is nothing compared with the level of difficulty on eq. In EQ in order to reach any sort of content you literally have to join a high end guild who raids about 6-8 hours daily in order to achieve the items and access the game offers. Green mobs will literally one round your lvl 65 pets or your epic pets like they are nothing.
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Hmmm. Ad Hominem attacks segued into baseless blathering. Quality work, there...
I haven't ignored you yet, because you amuse me, but as I continue through the thread, I may run across another gem from you.
Folks, I do see a common misconception that is causing a LOT of confusion here.
What I am seeing is a lot of people seeming to think that balance is balance. You fail to see that there are multiple balance points in this game, and getting some to work, breaks others.
I have posted in one of the many threads here about my issues re-rolling for the new patch, and a spine/regen scrapper's experiences with the new Outcasts. Others have not seen a problem after doing the same with a Dark/dark (which has an inherent -ACC on it's attacks. Spines get a minor -RECH per the description, but it appears to have little effect) The 2 power sets are NOT alike, and have vastly different strengths/weaknesses.
I do believe that the Developers and Designers are trying to make this the best game possible. I question their methodology, however.
It is plain, both to those that read the issues as they were posted, and to those that read the re-posted links to some of these issues in this thread, that many of the issues that are being 'discussed' here were exposed in Beta. In some cases, the issue was acknowledged with a 'working on it' response, other times no response was to be had.
While I will agree that CoH drew me in not only due to the superhero motif, but due to the fun the game had. I am seeing this slide closer to the EQ paradigm in mob toughness/player ability, and while I do not think we will ever be "EQ in spandex", we are moving too far in that direction for my taste.
I honestly don't know what the game balance answer is. While I do love seeing the additional attacks on the low level outcasts, you may consider giving 10th, and below Outcasts the elemental melee attacks only. Leave the blaster damage to the 11+ Outcasts in Steel Canyon. Or allow some higher spawns in Hollows to have some of these. But giving the Hollows mobs full powers, and the aggro range they have, makes for a very difficult run.
I solo'd an Empath/Elec defender to mid-20's, then grouped with friends to low 30's. I solo'd AR/DEv to 27, NRG/Ice to 19, Grav/Kin to 13...and many more. I DO know how to play solo at low levels. In the new Electric Eel mission, I racked up over 10 deaths from attempting different tactics. Add in other deaths for getting killed on the way to the door, bad timing running from a fight to rest up...and other mistakes, (And leveling twice to get the final boss down to Yellow, from Red) and this is no longer fun, but tedious.
As a contrast, I took the same spines/Regen to KR, and slaughtered the Lost in my mission there. I guess on the good side is that after being an Outcast chewtoy, Headman Blasters don't seem to stun me much anymore (as compared to the new Outcasts, anyway).
I know there are different opinions about the +1 mobs in missions now but just felt i should give feedback as well. I really enjoy fighting +1 s in missions solo or with friends. I think they are doable with CERTAIN archetypes. Of course you cant expect a controller (talking mainly 1-20) to solo +1s in missions but then again a controller shouldnt be able to. I find fighting +1 bosses challenging and fun. Also its alot more exp and hence actually worth the time running between missions rather than just street hunting. I wish it wouldnt get "fixed" but i guess the majority of the 1% player base posting here wants it fixed lol
Actually, the "good" players or experts should be planning for the future now with the new release. This items and services should be prime for going up in price. So dont chase away players (who arent as good) - you should be digging into thier pockets.
http://search.ebay.com/City-of-Heroe...ectZ1QQfromZR8
http://www.mpsgames.com/coh/City-of-Heroes-Cheats.cfm
http://www.cheatbook.de/wfiles/cityofheroes.htm
actually a free read 
You should run a leveling service and have players pay per level. Dont scoff them, encourage them to buy your services.
My brother and friend went back to EQ. They have played for 5 or is it 6 years now? Then can solo (55 to 65) , depending on where they go. Not everything is soloable, but they can do it in some areas. I believe EQ is expanding now and you can get to 70 as well?
Wish we had a bean counter to say where the player base is at in levels, or at least a /who all 50 or so like EQ.
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until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains.
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Don't see the problem, I have run into red bosses in the occasional mission since the game started. And at 18 they start using stuns and holds because many ATs are immune to them at that point. I have run into the problem of a boss I can't solo more than once, I just go out and ask if someone will help me kill the boss. Since it is only one mob even 1 high level player who can just go in and smack him is fine. Never had trouble finding someone to help/do it for me.
While I like to solo, and love to try and do things meant for a group (I actually love the +1 spawns -guess you can't make everyone happy), I also accept that it is a multiplayer game and, like real life, sometimes you need to get help. Usually lots of friendly people out there to help and I try and do the same for others.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Well........after restarting a Dark Melee / Regen Scrapper (now up to Level 5) and going thru a few more missions, I've really gotta say that I am looking foward to seeing this fixed.
At first, the missions were not bad. Mostly White and Yellow minions with Yellow and Orange Bosses (even with all of my missions being Vahz and surviving the Zombie Barf).
But now that I've hit Lvl 5 they've just gotten out of hand
One room.......6 Yellow Cadavers, 2 Yellow Embalmbed, 2 Yellow Reapers, 2 Orange Mort.
Started pulling the Cadavers....that worked ok....got them out of the way until I somehow got the attention of one of the Reapers......then all hell broke loose
After 2 Explosions and several Crossbow shots I'm back in the Hospital
Ok...back to contact...reload Insp
Back to dungeon.......
Now it doesn't matter what I do.....if I target one of the Reapers or Morts I get them all......that's a bit much for a Level 5 even with popping Luck x4 and Acc x2
I do finally manage to get them all down....but after burning all my Influence on Inspirations and racking up 2 more deaths it wasn't much fun anymore.
I don't mind the challenge, but I do mind the way it is now.
Statesman, do you have an update on when the +1 Mob fix will be going on Test or to Live? I'd really like to know
Thanks
T
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Oh, and about the outcry thing, the large quantity of outcry(read whining) coming from a few posters don't mean that the rest of us are all pissed off. It's the principle of the silent majority vs. the noisy minority(Yes I am aware of the Nixon theme 
). Anyways if it is the case that many people are dissatisfied it is only logical that they flood to the boards here to post their complaints. Since this forum makes up for less than 1% of the player base and I haven't seen any jump in the number of new posters, I can only conclude that people either don't care enough or that they simply find the new issue challenging and fun as opposed to "impossible" like some whiners here(you included) have put it or implied.
I leveled one char to lvl 21 and another one to lvl 12 after the release of issue 2. One was a dark/dark defender and another was a scrapper. I went through both hallows and perez park without undue trouble so I don't see what the real complaint is. I died about 3 times between the 2 chars, and the deaths were in a group. Unless you play like an idiot and don't plan your targets and skill slots wisely you shouldn't have too much trouble lvling in the lower lvls even with issue 2.
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So because we post our thoughts here on the boards we are whiners? That's nice to know. Oh and what makes you so sure the majority favor the patch, the same can be said about the majority hating it. There is no way to really tell unless you get everyone who plays to speak up. But that won't happen because there are some who just don't care or wish to remain silent. I will say this, I for one do not wish to remain silent when I think there is something wrong with the game. That's how things get fixed if it is a mistake. I'm glad some people like it, great for them. But like I said earlier in a post, the MMO's will never cater to everyone. And what I mean by that is, someone somewhere will be unhappy about something in the game.
As for your assumption of people not knowing how to play because 'you' leveled just fine ... I have been playing since beta, I think I would know how to play by now. I've solo my whole gaming experience with the exception of doing the TF missions. Not to mention the many other MMO's I have played. So just because you got 'lucky' does not mean you have to talk smack about the other players who are having difficulty.
And another thing, you have to also look at it from a casual gamer's view. With this new patch the casual gamers (not hardcore gamers like 'you') might as well not play. They don't get enough done in the time that they play. My boyfriend who is a casual gamer has pretty much stopped playing. He feels no reward in playing anymore.
So ... Logmo ... Stop thinking you are the only one playing the game and try to take in other people's perspectives. Maybe then you will see why there are people making statements about the new patch and you won't be so quick to judge.
I rolled a scrapper on patch day, I am now lv 15, an I am havng way more fun then I did with my first scapper.
I find the +1 mods to be exelent source of leveling.
Iv dies alot and I mean alot more, but I still lv faster and have alot more fun post patch
These wandering patrols rock! It is so much fun to stalk these guys until they wander into a nice empty corner of the map and then pounce on them. I haven't had this much fun in CoH since I first got super jump. 
I started 2 alts after the patch to check it out,yup its harder,and i died a few times but overall im enjoying the heck outta it :]
Junkyard Wolf
California Smog(CoV)
Far Rider
Durango Dave
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I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.
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Hmmm. So the fact that we've....
1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations
Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?
I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).
Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.
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Fine, Statesman, but how about the mission I had today (1 hour timed) to take out Sidokan and His Coven with my L18 Energy/Energy Blaster. The overall mission not too bad in spite of a number of +1 Astral Followers until I got to the Boss (+1 RED) who cast stuns and holds in chains so that the toon could not move, run, attack or anything until dead. He died twice trying to take the boss out and finally gave up and let the mission time out. I have done this mission before Update #2 with other alts and never had this kind of experience. Bug? I have petitioned it.
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Similiar experiance happened to me on one of those god awful "suprise" timed missions. Defeated 15 outcasts and then suddenly got a timed mission... wonderful.
It was against the "auctioneer", it was an outcast mission.
Everything was +1 for my tanker, which was doable and enjoyable. Unfortunately the last boss "IcePac or snopac"... something like that was a controller or defender type. He just kept me frozen in a block of ice and wittled me down.
By that time it was way to late, I just went to bed, and of course the timer went out and I "failed" the mission.
If it wasnt timed, and as late as it was, I actually wouldn't have any complaint, I would have died, gotten someone to help me and then finished it.
Ah well.
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Here's my view on your situation, if you want to lvl, then you should avoid the missions because they are simply not effcient for exp gain. You won't be missing the story either, because there really isn't one. There's nothing blocking you from lvling fast and safer in the streets, or even in a hazard zone with a team. You can always lvl up higher and come back to finish a mission that you found hard before.(which will be balanced by the lvl when you got it so it will be easier when you lvl once or twice and come back to finish the mission.) The key thing is that missions aren't mandatory and sometimes they are even really tedious and always are bad, inefficient exp. It's much better and dare I say funner to solo in the streets or group with your SG members or friends to advance.
Seriously though, if this game has put you off so much due to the speed and tediousness of the lvling system I think you should look for a totally different genre, because as far as MMOs are concerned, this one is one of the fastest and has one of the lowest learning curves.
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Thank you for your opinion.