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Damage increasing over time doesn't really help solo tanker. Perhaps this isn't one of your goals anyway.
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Have to disagree with this. I soloed my invuln/superstrength tank almost the entire way to 50 since tanks weren't in demand for groups (and still aren't). Fights with typical street packs took a LONG time. Doing more damage as the fight dragged on would have helped a lot.
Not directly related to this topic but please read this thread:
Ice tankers concern
Ice primary need a fix BADLY and removing our exclusive toggle won't be enough. Ice primary has 4/5 usefull power ( hoarfrost, chilling embrace,wet ice, energy absorption , icicles (if geko fix it as promised ), energy absorption )
4 of our power are totally useless or at best extremly situational, no other tanker primary has uch concern except stone tank to a lesser extend.
Please try looking at it.... i'm really bothered having to rely on power pool to do my tanker job...and i'm not alone
Wow. Excellent compromise, Statesman. I'm impressed and have renewed faith in this game and its development team. Rock on! 
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You know what I just thought of? Once, at least once, theres going to be one group out there somewhere, pounding away at bad guys. And they're gonna get into one particular fight that last longer then the others. And maybe, just maybe, the scrapper or blasrer or whoever is gonna see something out of the corner of his eye. Slowly, one by one each team-mate is gonna take notice as they back off and just watch the rampaging tank go to town.
.
And I think at that moment, I just might shed a tear.
.
KUDOS Statesmen and all that are involved with this decision! This is the most awesomest thing I've seen all day. (yes I had the invent a new word just for this occasion)
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Two things.
1. I just love the post quoted.
2. Just wanted to say grats on the tankage love.
To Znail:
Just a side note and this is just my opinion ....but...
I play/played spines/claws/dark melee scrappers and the damage generally owns the tanker secondaries I've played.... stone/mace/energy/super str.
The only tanker secondary that may sometimes be an exception during a single boss is energy, due to the potential to double stack energy transfer/total focus. But the rest of energy melee's damage is so poor, and the recharge is so long on those 2 high end attacks, that the overall damage output over time doesn't touch that of the scrappers', especially with crits. And we all know that we never really get a chance to fight just one single boss, we usually fight packs of mobs with bosses in them.
To say tankers can generally meet scrappers single target damage is way off.
To say scrappers can generally meet a tankers defensive limitations is largely more accurate. Especially considering practical fights (purple patch: anything higher than +3 is a wasted time sink) and time spent tanking (which is much less with a scrapper simply becuz he kills it faster).
But....the changes look promising.
I hope they would consider putting provoke in tanker secondaries instead of taunt, as well.
And to some other folks discussing hasten and scrappers... now this is all merely just my personal opinion and experience but on the topic of hasten...
I team with lots of 40+ tankers without hasten.
I only know one scrapper 40+ that doesn't have hasten but he's level 50 and probably respec'ing that in once patch 2 goes live.
last comment.....
Was playing a low level alt with a dark/dark scrapper friend of mine in independence port. He was level 28 and mass pulling for our group and pulling lvl 27's-29's packs with bosses. Granted he needed status resistance inspirations so he could keep his armor on, and avoided pulling sorcs, but he could kill what he pulled quite efficiently.
This example is merely in regards to someone mentioning earlier that only invul scrappers can do this type of tank substituting and only at lvl 40+. DA has it's issues of course, especially non stacking problems, but this is just an example of some cool tanking done by a scrapper way before level 40.
[Edit] (Oh ya, forgot to add, he also later did the same thing to higher leveled mobs in Brickstown while still being lvl 28. This was the first time I actually witnessed a dark armor scrapper herding, and it was pretty cool to watch becuz he was a friend, but it was also saddening at the same time.)[Edit]
Anyways, I'm off... RL issues atm. Grats tankers.
>faints with joy<
That's so COOL! I love the love. Thank you, Statesman.
I do have a concern though. At level 30 and afterwards, most fights last 30 seconds if that. Especially when Tiger's running with the ATLAS TV crew, which uses tight, effecient tactics and pre-arranged strategies and can get some encounters down to fifteen seconds or less. Most of the time in this situation I charge in with Invincibility on, throw a Provoke, and land about three punches, and it's over. These changes are nice, but in the scenario above will not matter a hill of beans.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Statesman, all very cool ideas which, when combined with the level 30+ game being made more challenging, will definitely restore the need for Tankers in groups (and no one had to be nerfed to do it).
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I do have a concern though. At level 30 and afterwards, most fights last 30 seconds if that. Especially when Tiger's running with the ATLAS TV crew, which uses tight, effecient tactics and pre-arranged strategies and can get some encounters down to fifteen seconds or less. Most of the time in this situation I charge in with Invincibility on, throw a Provoke, and land about three punches, and it's over. These changes are nice, but in the scenario above will not matter a hill of beans.
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Well, I think the change has a two fold purpose.
1. Tankers primary duty in groups is to take damage. With this change in damage the primary focus won't alter too substantially. Tankers still take damage better than anyone else. The new punchvokes will help with that and taunt will work at a distance.
2. Soloing and hard fights have a new meaning. You won't solo as fast as scrappers/blasters but it's now feasible and, possibly, even more fun due to the serious roleplayability of this change.
If I had a tank I'd be screamin at my monitor things like "Oh, ya think so? Take that, and That, and THAT!"
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I wonder how the timer for extra damage is going to be calculated, though. If it's a cooldown timer between hits on enemies, I can see Tankers exhibiting druggie-like behavior, flitting from scrub minion to minion so they can get their one-shot "hit" and keep their damage high.
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But in a practical sense, as a game mechanic, that works. With each hit causing an AOE provoke you should be able to switch targets around and keep things pretty well glued to you. My tanker never took provoke so I'm used to jumping around and acquiring new targets.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
Good plan, I like it.
I like the simplicity, the logic, and I like the fact that I see hints of some of the board's suggestions in it.
My mind is reeling with "But you should"'s... Like, "but you should check the endurance to make sure all the tankers can LAST long enough while punching, many of them just sit passively as a punching bag to keep their defenses fired up", or "But you should make sure the tank has enough defenses to stay alive this long" etc, etc, etc...
But, since you HAVE designed and built this game, I guess I can trust you to pay attention to the balancing details!
Thanks a lot! Can't wait to see it!
Ingot
would really love to see a ui for this instead of little buffs that stack. like maybe just a simple little bar that charges up, just so that is seems like it's a real part of the game instead of just a quick fix.
Replying to Statesman's original post: This sounds great!
And before this is reiterated as a solution, no I don't think that raising perp HP at 30+ is the answer. It'll only make soloing harder for everyone, especially my poor blaster who's 34 now and has been in debt constantly since level 26.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Statesman said:
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3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
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Consider granting us obscene damage against inanimate objects, like those prison cell doors and the lab equiptment you can destroy.
One of the most humiliating experiences I've had playing a tanker had to do with trying to get out of a CoT prison: my spines scrapper buddy did it in less than a minute, I took many, many minutes, six catch-a-breaths and a time out rest. No, really.
Awesome awesome awesome changes. I cant wait to see them in action. Im gonna try not to speculate too much on how its all going to work, seeing as it hasnt even been coded yet.. I dont want to get my hopes up that it will work a certain way then be disappointed 
. Im just gonna leave it to yall and make sure I save a couple respecs for when its ready.
Thank you devs for treating your community so well.
I keep thinking that a lot of the reasoning has to do with COV and PVP.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
Impressive, now we must turn our powers to midgating Invince, cause it needs to change for scrappers and tanks (thinking 90 is the new Def cap) and getting the SR guys some love. As a friend of mine says you know your out of ideas when one of your powers is Lucky. Couldn't they use airialist (sp)?
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):
get done.
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First I want to thank you for the work you are putting in on this. I love playing my tank but of late, in the post 40 game especially it is very frustrating. I would like to address a couple of specific points.
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
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This sounds great BUT until the specific issues of the weaker primary sets which can't tank the way invulnerable can are addressed this is a death sentence for us. If I as a stone tank with only smash lethal defense because I can only run one armor type start aggroing everyone around me with 6 different attack types I am dead with no chance. Even if the proposed stacking of armors happens all it takes is one lucky shot through the defense to drop all the toggles and make me just as dead.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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This is awesome statesman
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Of course, the thought in your minds must be....WHEN?...I'm afraid I don't know. First, we need some code for this. Then we've got to test it thoroughly. Finally, it'll go on the Test Server for awhile to gather data and impressions. This is going to take some time; but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.
Feel free to comment!
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The sooner the better of course. We do understand these things take time. I just hope it happens before I hit 50 so I can realy enjoy it.
Lord Valhala - Level 41 Stone/Stone Tanker on Freedom
Valhala II - Level 19 Inv/Stone Tanker on Freedom
i stand amazed, i have been continually posting the vision of a tanker being resilent to damage and have a powerful (and slower than a scapper) attack .... STATESMAN u have the answer enhancing damage upon each blow landed .... i LOVE it .... thank you for haveing the idea/vision ... good luck with the speedy encoding
I really think this thread is grossly miss-titled.
Something more like "Tanks...iPod are not as cool as you now" or "You know that Fable game? It's baby spit up compared to you"
"Tanks, Redbull gives you wings!"
or My Favorite
"Okay, Tanks are better, please Lilith give us our first born back."
It's one thing to make an entirely new type of MMO and break away from the crowd with groundbreaking ideas but to continue to add innovative concepts....Wow, just wow.
/e clap
I think I'm a fanboy.
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Statesman,
If you can code exactly what you have said, then I have only one word for it: Perfect.
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Gotta agree with this one. Or to quote Ron Weasely:
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That was BLOODY BRILLIANT!
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As that crank who's known galaxy wide as the guy who warns against nerfing heroes as a bad idea, I have to say that this is a very GOOD idea for how to handle the tanks problems. I look forward to playing my Invul/SS tank again
Good job. This is the kind of solution that moves this game EVEN closer to the comic books roots that it derives from. In my opinion, that's the way to go.
Not to hijack things, but can I put in a good word for our controller and defender brothers & sisters? They could use greater viability to make them less 1 dimensional and so absolutely dependent on groups.
I really don't know what to say. What an awesome pair of ideas. Thank you.
Comments/requests/questions, from a Fire/Fire and Inv/SS tanker player:-
1) Please make the AoE taunt effect use the Provoke reaction animation (the "spidey-sense" one) so that we can see who's taunted. I think it's generally frustrating when you can't tell if an effect has effected a MOB or not (see Grav Distortion - grr).
2) Query - from what you've said, I'm taking it that the provoke effect 'hits' automatically if the attack does? Please clarify.
3) Please don't make Burn itself do this provoking effect. However, please make the secondary provoke effect strong enough to overcome the Burn fear effect, or it's not worth much to Fire tankers... and powerful though they are, I don't believe any build should need to take a pool just to effectively use one of their main weapons.
4) Will damaging primary-line auras be doing this Provoke effect? Blazing Aura/Mud Pots/Icicles?
5) Please consider making the *Tanker* secondary Taunt perform a (lesser?) AoE taunt on all bar the main target. My reasoning for this is thus - Tankers basically have melee attacks only (with the exception of SR and Stone, who have a cool but very slow ranged attack). If a teammate who is not in melee range is getting pounded, the Tanker, with these changes, has no means to take aggro off that teammate at range without resorting to Provoke again - with the number of MOBs floating around at higher levels, it's usual that several slip by to the squishies, not just one. Whilst I can see a strong argument for Tanker's having limitations to their inherent taunting, there's a critical point to this - if players know Tankers are pretty rubbish at holding aggro outside melee range, Tankers will tend to only get invited to teams if they have Provoke, much as the preference is now. If you want to make Tankers attractive to high level teams, they have to err on the side of having too much aggro conrol capability, rather than too little.
Thanks for reading, and keep up the awesome work.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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Oh my Lord! Thank you Statesman! I feel like you've listened to me personally on this one!
Last week I sent Statesman a private message on a similar issue, more to the point, it was a suggestion for a new power. Basically, it was an activate power which would enable your Tanker to deal increasing damage as he/she himself took it.
For example:
+Damage taken = +Damage Output
But hey, I'm not taking the credit for this, I'm sure this is something we Tankers have wanted for a long time now.
But after reading what you've just written here Statesman, much better, more true to the comic Tankers. Take Superman for example, holds himself back at first, but as the fight goes on (realising he's facing a tough opponent) or as it gets more difficult, he ups the ante dealing more damage as he goes. A good reference would be the Superman-Doomsday fight or the Superman-Hulk fight in the Marvel/DC crossover.
So would the new "forumla", look something like this:
Successful target hit = Base Damage*xDamage modifier ?
Like
= Base Damage 80*1.05 (5 per cent damage increase)
= 84
Damage Taken
= 84*1.05
= 88.2
??
Someone with a maths brain help me out, I'm an English teacher.
Major props to you Statesman and all the devs, you guys are one of the reasons I keep on playing this game. You guys rock!