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To speak to those worried about us usurping the role of "boss killer" from the scrappers. Well, it has been said before, that no group should need any specific AT. That means that each AT should be able to in some way sub for 1 or more other ATs. Of course not as effectively, but none-the-less, we will be able to adequetly step into that role now, as can most blasters.
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Tankers can already fill that role more then well enuff. Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do. The upside for Scrappers realy is the crits against bosses. But if the bonus from this change is larger then the 15% crit chance against a boss, then more then just boss killing will be a problem.
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Sorry, Znail, but I'm afraid your (and many other scrappers') specious claims on this will fall on deaf ears this time. There is no more need to propagate the above myth - The players' damage logs have repeatedly shown that scrapper primaries way out-damage tanker secondaries, and the devs no doubt have access to the same numbers through datamining. They cannot be fooled on this matter.
That said, the proposed changes have the potential to be either good or completely worthless. For all we know the magnitude and duration of the damage bonus may not even grant a 15% damage over time even under the most contrived optimum scenario, in addition to being almost totally unnoticeable in 99% of the fights.
The same goes for the inherent melee AE taunt since the "taunt metahold" in CoT is all-or-nothing. For all we know the new AE taunt could grant tankers the same half-a-second "metahold" in an AE vs. +5 villains that the current tanker attacks grant vs. each target hit.
It always sounds great when Statesman first lays it out, a.la. the knockback fix which at first was supposed to be global for tankers, and then the higher tanker attacks ended up not getting the knockback fix. The same goes for these changes. I wouldn't start celebrating just yet if you know what I mean.
Very nice ideas Bossman. I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing how it plays. Despite my desires, don't rush it. Getting it right, is better than getting it quick. I wish the Cryptic Team the best of luck.
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3) The underlying issue pointed out has been that, while scrappers could pick up powers to raise their defenses to tanker levels, there was no corresponding way for tankers to reach scrapper damage levels. Now, as usual, there were too many arguments at the extreme in any discussions on that, but the slot usage was not enough to balance things out (although it did make it closer than some extremists would admit to). Adding in a controlled, tanker only way to help redress the damage potential difference to target levels, at the same time as giving a much more comic-book feel, is an exceptional solution in concept - we just have to hope the implementation lives up to that.
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Outside of Invulnerability, I don't know of any scrappers that can actually, truly match tanker defenses, and Inv scrappers still have to delve into the power pools for their resistance (and IMO Inv in both archtypes is overpowered anyway). So I don't think it's really true that scrappers can get to tanker defenses. Rather, it's more that the game doesn't require more than scrapper defenses to get by in melee, so tankers say, hey, what makes us so special then? As they're upping the difficulty level, maybe that will change.
There's also the idea that resistance is perhaps too stable a defense to make tankers and scrappers who rely on resistance different. 90% resistance is always 90% resistance, so tankers that can exceed 90% just have waste, because outside of the rare resistance debuff, the excess is just thrown away. If the game scaled resistance somehow so that 90% base resistance doesn't always block 9/10 of damage against harder opponents, similar to debuffs scaling by opponent level, then having over 90% would be more useful, as insurance against resistance scaling.
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1) Tanks damage from my experience isn't actually that much lower then scrappers if you invest the slots in them so adding damage per hit may be excessive. This does disallow criticals but from experience criticals don't pop up often enough to be relied on.
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Not that I want to get into this particular arguement (okay perhaps I do) but this is so not true from my experience.
Last night I sidekicked a scrapper on my missions. My attacks are pretty well slotted and are full with SOs. My sidekick scrapper is at the DO level. So even if his attacks were all 6 slotted they would not get the same benefits my attacks do (having at least 3 dmg SOs each).
Even when I had Rage running my sidekick was doing more damage. It got a lot closer but he was still doing much greater damage. I didn't run out of END as quickly but that is just due to the fact that I am running on SOs while he is running on DOs
Face it. Statesman has spoken on this issue. They will have data mined it. They keep saying people whining on boards doesn't inform their opinions. It might get them to look at an issue but they will check their logs to see the truth of it.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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3) The underlying issue pointed out has been that, while scrappers could pick up powers to raise their defenses to tanker levels, there was no corresponding way for tankers to reach scrapper damage levels. Now, as usual, there were too many arguments at the extreme in any discussions on that, but the slot usage was not enough to balance things out (although it did make it closer than some extremists would admit to). Adding in a controlled, tanker only way to help redress the damage potential difference to target levels, at the same time as giving a much more comic-book feel, is an exceptional solution in concept - we just have to hope the implementation lives up to that.
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Outside of Invulnerability, I don't know of any scrappers that can actually, truly match tanker defenses, and Inv scrappers still have to delve into the power pools for their resistance (and IMO Inv in both archtypes is overpowered anyway). So I don't think it's really true that scrappers can get to tanker defenses. Rather, it's more that the game doesn't require more than scrapper defenses to get by in melee, so tankers say, hey, what makes us so special then? As they're upping the difficulty level, maybe that will change.
There's also the idea that resistance is perhaps too stable a defense to make tankers and scrappers who rely on resistance different. 90% resistance is always 90% resistance, so tankers that can exceed 90% just have waste, because outside of the rare resistance debuff, the excess is just thrown away. If the game scaled resistance somehow so that 90% base resistance doesn't always block 9/10 of damage against harder opponents, similar to debuffs scaling by opponent level, then having over 90% would be more useful, as insurance against resistance scaling.
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Nah. The gap between tanker secondaries and scrapper primaries being so much bigger than the gap between scrapper secondaries and tanker primaries is a problem regardless of whether or not high defense is needed. Regen being so much more popular than invul despite invul's raw ability to tank non-psionics much better, that can be solved by the need for high defense. The discrepancy in the primary-secondary gaps is another story.
In case you are even thinking about comparing scrapper SR to tanker Invul to "prove" that scrapper Invul is the only problem, try playing an ice tanker in the 40+ game some time...no sleep resistance, no psionic defense to evade sleep attacks...then come back and tell me how much SR sucks "even with the new Elude." DA doesn't stack yet? Well heck neither does ice/stone. Sorry, bud, but "Invul scrapper is the only problem" doesn't fly either. Raw ability to tank non-psionics isn't the only consideration. Each defense set comes with its own perks to balance the lesser raw non-psionic tanking ability, not the least of which is the ability to dodge AE sleep everybody else dreads. Granted some defense sets need help, but that's no argument against the generally narrow gap between scrapper secondaries and tanker primaries relative to the generally wide gap between tanker secondaries and scrapper primaries needing to be fixed per Statesman's ideas.
Your point #2 wasn't addressed well but I assume you will address certain Scrapper builds as a seperate issue?
And I'm of the opinion that certain Tanker lines need to be updated first before these changes are made. For instance, Ice and Stone getting stackable armors. Without them, having an AOE taunt in every attack will be suicide for all those that didn't max out Tough/Weave.
There are still some immediate damage issues that need to be addressed (Ice secondary).
Also someone made a great point about Fire Tankers (secondary) getting out of control with a change like this.
And these changes (all of them) are rather moot in the L30+ game unless some radical changes are made with regards to the length of fights in general in the mid to latter game. While I see that you've addressed those (in theory) I still can't picture what you will do to make fights substantially longer without seriously nerfing down AOE damage in general.
I like your ideas on concept, but I feel that Tankers (re: specific Tanker lines) have some more immediate needs.
This sounds absolutely awesome...
You're a good egg Statesman. Thanks man!
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):
1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done.
1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
Of course, the thought in your minds must be....WHEN?...I'm afraid I don't know. First, we need some code for this. Then we've got to test it thoroughly. Finally, it'll go on the Test Server for awhile to gather data and impressions. This is going to take some time; but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.
Feel free to comment!
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All I can say is WOW!!!
I've been seriously thinking I was getting bored with the game and perhaps it was time to take a break but this ... this is huge.
Statesman I can't tell you how excited I am about this change.
You are my hero!!!
Thank you very much for finally getting to the heart of the matter and really hitting what is broken with tanks.
Thank you thank you thank you!
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):
1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done.
1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
Of course, the thought in your minds must be....WHEN?...I'm afraid I don't know. First, we need some code for this. Then we've got to test it thoroughly. Finally, it'll go on the Test Server for awhile to gather data and impressions. This is going to take some time; but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.
Feel free to comment!
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Now that's what I'm talking about. I should be able to carry the team if the fight happens to go the distance. I mean that's what melees are for. Anyways especially as a tanker, when we fight we "outlast" our opponents. Oh man, I'm so excited about seeing this implemented.
Just to back Paragonsman up.
I've played a couple different types of tanks and several scrappers. Tankers are not close to being on par with Scrappers with the exception of Burn tanks who's DoT accumulates quickly.
Any 'time' bonus to Fire Tanks will be moot because you can bet the fight will be over long before they will get a boost. Other thanks though will have issues. There isn't a Tank out there (not even a vaunted Fire Tank) who can kill 160 Demon's as quickly as my scrapper can (mostly because Burn is a small patch and not all baddies will collect in that small area).
Scrapper Damage >>>> than tanker damage.
Very interesting... I think this is a good idea.
New Tanker motto:
"The longer the fight, the shorter it will be..." 
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks.
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This should help. It has been suggested many times in the Tanker Forums as something that should help improve aggro control.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes.
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This one sounds great on paper. But, I have a definite concern that this might just end up as mere window dressing. At high levels, you can reach the damage cap with just the use of Build up. Will this new basic tanker ability raise the damage cap to match how much it adds to the Tanker? If it doesn't, then it will end up pretty much moot as having any real effect in high 40's game play.
Statesman, I think you really need to examine tightness of your damage cap at the high levels. It really puts a damper on team dynamics as buffs are often useless due to the cap. It is this point that again concerns me about this future change to Tankers. Will it really mean a thing with the present damage cap system?
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Statesman, you've been hinting at changes "coming soon" to deal with lack of challenge at the mid to upper levels for quite a while now.
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Right after Expansion 2 goes live.
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To be honest I'm more concerned about when these tanker changes are going live. I don't want to have to wait another Issue release to get them 
That sounds sweet..... I'm gonna build me a tanker..!!
Myx lvl 33 controller (recovering altoholic)
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1) Parsing damage from reasonably high (mid-30s) tanks and scrappers puts tanker damage significantly power than scrappers (far far below the 75% 'target'). At that time scrappers were, interestingly, running at less than 70% of blaster damage as well. I used to think exactly as you did until I went out and got some hard data.
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Statistics is not the same as hard data. There are alot of random factors involved. Power choises, slot choises and playstyles. A Tanker who is acting as a groups tank standing immobilized using provoke is going to do alot less damage then a Scrapper running around doing as much damage as he can, even if they actualy did the same damage else. So statistics cant be used to prove much here.
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Lies, damned lies and statistics!
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I'm having a mjor deja-vu to about 2 months ago?
"Statistics can't prove anything"? Uh - what?
I like these solutions.
But I have one concern regarding the AOE provoke on attacks.Prior to getting Invincibility, I would have had trouble handling large numbers of criminals at once. Does it seem as though adding a provoke-like effect to attacks might attract too many criminals for a low-level tanker to handle? Could the effect be tiered so that it is not at full strength until the tanker is 20th or so?
And thank you for a rationale for steadily-increasing damage. I did not want the Angry Hulk feel for my character. Rationalizing the increasing damage as a result of letting loose more and more as the battle goes on really improves the effect in my mind. Thanks!
Ferrium - Inv/SS Tanker
Hyperforce - SS/Regen Brute
Member of V for Vengance (Exalted)
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Last night I sidekicked a scrapper on my missions. My attacks are pretty well slotted and are full with SOs. My sidekick scrapper is at the DO level. So even if his attacks were all 6 slotted they would not get the same benefits my attacks do (having at least 3 dmg SOs each).
Even when I had Rage running my sidekick was doing more damage. It got a lot closer but he was still doing much greater damage. I didn't run out of END as quickly but that is just due to the fact that I am running on SOs while he is running on DOs
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Rage kind of gave you away there. It would help some if its not always the worst Tanker set that is used to compare with. Its somewhat telling that its always the best Scrappers and the worst Tankers used in comparison.
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Statistics is not the same as hard data.
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?? What's "hard data" as you understand it?
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There are alot of random factors involved.
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Which makes the use of statistics so essential....
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A Tanker who is acting as a groups tank standing immobilized using provoke is going to do alot less damage then a Scrapper running around doing as much damage as he can, even if they actualy did the same damage else. So statistics cant be used to prove much here.
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A tanker being rooted is doing less damage *statistically*. You're confusing "potential damage" with "effective damage" here.
Potential damage can be claculated easily (as in DPS = (Damage of a power)/(Recharge Time in Seconds).
Effective Damage is much harder to nail down, and you *need* statistics to find it.
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I'm having a mjor deja-vu to about 2 months ago?
"Statistics can't prove anything"? Uh - what?
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Maybe I should have put it a bit more clear. Statistics can be used to prove anything you want, even that Tankers does more damage then Scrappers. It just depends on how you collect your data. Its nothing 'Hard' about statistics, its as soft and easily adaptable to your own views as it can be.
Even if Statistics was actualy a good way to test things so would a bit larger sample then 2 people or so be needed. It leaves a bit too much to those random factors.
Whoa! That sounds absolutely great! Hopefully people will finally stop thinking that Tankers without Provoke are useless. And the damage build up, that sounds great! I've always liked the way Super Strength feels like relentlessly pummeling your opponents to ground, but the damage never matched that. This'll undoubtedly give Tankers a more tankery feel
Can't wait until this comes out. The Tanker 'powerups' in issue 2 are great as well (though I still dislike loosing knockback 
). Thanks Statesy, once again you save the day
Neato...sounds like tanks get an inherent mild version of "build-up"
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Last night I sidekicked a scrapper on my missions. My attacks are pretty well slotted and are full with SOs. My sidekick scrapper is at the DO level. So even if his attacks were all 6 slotted they would not get the same benefits my attacks do (having at least 3 dmg SOs each).
Even when I had Rage running my sidekick was doing more damage. It got a lot closer but he was still doing much greater damage. I didn't run out of END as quickly but that is just due to the fact that I am running on SOs while he is running on DOs
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Rage kind of gave you away there. It would help some if its not always the worst Tanker set that is used to compare with. Its somewhat telling that its always the best Scrappers and the worst Tankers used in comparison.
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Sorry but that is a lame response. The scrapper in question was MA by the way. What would you cosider a valid comparison then?
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
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Thank heavens a Dev has finally said this. Perhaps now we can "Officially" consign this arguement to the glue factory with the other dead horses.
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
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If I Provoke things by hitting them I will not mind being a Provoke-bot
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes.
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Fabulous. This will be great for the solo tank. My only concerns are for the slower powersets like Axe and Mace and that it will make rooted defenses even MORE annoying.
I am so glad you linked this to hitting things and not to how much damage we have taken. BIG TICK!
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04