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But with the exception of the "taunt" on Invincibility, which is probably not a true taunt and just acts similar to one, the aggro generated by those is tiny. At level 43, with blazing aura with 1 slot acc, 5 slots, damage, I'm doing in the mid to upper 20s in damage every tick. The ticks go every half-second to second. Assuming the best, 29 damage per tcik, 2 ticks a second, I'm only doing 58 damage a second. I believe I can be outaggroed by a blaster using nothing but power push. It's certainly not enough to keep the enemies from turning their attention towards a blaster that's firing even half-rate.
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I agree with what you're saying here, but wanted to point out that the taunt on invincibility is a magnitude 2 or 3, which puts it in the area of provoke. In my experience it holds mob aggro quite nicely.
I also found with my fire tanker that I could hold the majority of aggro with a fast punching set (SS), taunt, and blazing aura. You have to be on your toes to hold close to everything, but personally that made it interesting for me. The ease and simplicity of provoke is what creates Provoke-bots. 
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How do you keep the aggro on 10 mobs at a time with 5 attacks, a taunt, and blazing aura? Not saying you can't, just curious. If you're doing it by making sure the blasters aren't doing as much damage as they're able, that seems a little inefficient. If you're doing it another way, I'd love to hear it.
For me, I chose provoke because I made a burn tank. Provoke just works better than any other tool I had available for the purpose. Blazing aura doesn't keep them angry enough to stay close by, but provoke does. Adding ice patch on top of that worked even better. Still, I'd prefer to ditch provoke and keep them angry by, oh, hitting them.
Just to add in my two cents to this massive thread, ive been playing a BS/RGN scrapper since day one of the public release of this wonderfully fun-everquest addiciton breaking- game, and I have to say I am excited about the changes being made for tankers. I feel no threat or worry as a high damage dealing class with good AOE's about losing my place to tankers. Even with a decent damage increase given to tankers, im all for it!
But I am one of the rare people that actually likes seeing everyone get the most out of there playing experiance 
I say go for it, heck add in more, give the poor ice/mace tankers some lovin, not forgetting stone armor as well!
I'd love to see these tankers smashing heads in, knocking guys across the street, into buildings, or smashing heads with a near-by dumpster and seeing the damage actually scale.
How about damage at the cost defense? What if tankers recieved a damage buff, putting them on par with scrapper damage(minus critical hits) while they had no defensive toggles running? Turning on any defensive toggle would then cut into this damage buff bringing it back down to normal tanker levels. Let's take Invulnerability as an example:
No toggles running = Full Damage Buff
TI or US running = 40% buff reduction
Invincibility = 60% buff reduction
Unstoppable = Complete Buff Reduction
Inherent powers wouldn't negatively affect your damage. Power pool defenses like Tough and Weave would affect your damage but not as much as your primaries. Also the damage reduction would be "capped" at the normal tanker level so with all your defenses up you'd basically be doing the same damage we see on live today. I hope this would accomplish two things:
1.) Gives folks more versatility in playing their tanker. In a group setting turn on your defenses and jump into a huge swarm of baddies to grab aggro and let the blasters/scrappers do their thing. Or shut down defenses when a controller has the mob held or a defender has debuffed them into uselessness and go to town with higher damaging attacks. Or wait till the blasters/scrappers have taken out the majority of the most dangerous baddies then shut down toggles and go to town during clean up.
2.) Avoids the problem of trivializing conflicts with high damaging alpha strikes since tankers tend to want to have their defenses running when drawing aggro thus they'll be less inclinded to start a conflict with the heavy hitting attacks.
Just my 2 cents
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But with the exception of the "taunt" on Invincibility, which is probably not a true taunt and just acts similar to one, the aggro generated by those is tiny. At level 43, with blazing aura with 1 slot acc, 5 slots, damage, I'm doing in the mid to upper 20s in damage every tick. The ticks go every half-second to second. Assuming the best, 29 damage per tcik, 2 ticks a second, I'm only doing 58 damage a second. I believe I can be outaggroed by a blaster using nothing but power push. It's certainly not enough to keep the enemies from turning their attention towards a blaster that's firing even half-rate.
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I agree with what you're saying here, but wanted to point out that the taunt on invincibility is a magnitude 2 or 3, which puts it in the area of provoke. In my experience it holds mob aggro quite nicely.
I also found with my fire tanker that I could hold the majority of aggro with a fast punching set (SS), taunt, and blazing aura. You have to be on your toes to hold close to everything, but personally that made it interesting for me. The ease and simplicity of provoke is what creates Provoke-bots.
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How do you keep the aggro on 10 mobs at a time with 5 attacks, a taunt, and blazing aura? Not saying you can't, just curious. If you're doing it by making sure the blasters aren't doing as much damage as they're able, that seems a little inefficient. If you're doing it another way, I'd love to hear it.
For me, I chose provoke because I made a burn tank. Provoke just works better than any other tool I had available for the purpose. Blazing aura doesn't keep them angry enough to stay close by, but provoke does. Adding ice patch on top of that worked even better. Still, I'd prefer to ditch provoke and keep them angry by, oh, hitting them.
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I have to agree with Bitter. The moment a blaster drops an AoE, the aggro will immediately turn to him. At most, you will probably only be able to keep 2-3 villians on you, maybe 5 if BA goes off just afterwards. But that's 5 other villians that are currently destroying your blaster teammate. You have a couple options I guess, refuse to take provoke and let your blaster teammate fend for himself, or you can tell the blaster to hold back on his AoEs, ultimately destroying the groups xp per hour.
Also, I wish to hear how you plan to use burn w/o provoke. Honestly, if you're a fire tanker w/o Burn, there is really no reason to have you on the team. An Invul tanker, or even a scrapper would be more beneficial than a Provokeless, Burnless, fire tanker.
In theory, if the new AoE taunt on hand to hand attacks is strong enough, all I might need is taunt to get the initial aggro on a group of enemies (assuming I taunt a boss, lt, or someone standing int he middle of the group), then start throwing punches to keep the effect up. As a burn tanker, I already use provoke mostly as a PBAoE taunt anyways, to keep them on me, rather than OFF of teammates. It's a subtle difference in playstyles between a true defensive tank and a burn tank. And, honestly, the character was designed to be a solo XP machine, so any loss of teamming ability is secondary to me. I've got storylining, team-based characters. The burn tank is not one of them. He was built solely to get to 50 before Issue 3, and the easiest way to do that post-40 is to head into portals and by myself and aggro everything. Teammates don't even really enter into it.
That said, provoke has been invaluable for when I have wanted to team and needed to keep teammates alive. But I usually wade in either way, and, again, provoke is just a way to keep the enemies on me. It's rare that anything gets away once it's in close, and I can't see that changing when I'm throwing 4 "provokes" every 10 seconds instead of 1.
Ice tanker's wet ice needs sleep resistance.
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But with the exception of the "taunt" on Invincibility, which is probably not a true taunt and just acts similar to one, the aggro generated by those is tiny. At level 43, with blazing aura with 1 slot acc, 5 slots, damage, I'm doing in the mid to upper 20s in damage every tick. The ticks go every half-second to second. Assuming the best, 29 damage per tcik, 2 ticks a second, I'm only doing 58 damage a second. I believe I can be outaggroed by a blaster using nothing but power push. It's certainly not enough to keep the enemies from turning their attention towards a blaster that's firing even half-rate.
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I wasn't aware those other ones had so little taunt value. I actually assumed they were the same since I vaguely recall the pbaoe taunt being added to invincibility as compensation for SS's lack of an AoE to generate agro. This was somewhere around the time provoke started accepting accuracy enhancements.
At any rate, if those have very small taunt values then they really do need to be increased. It's silly to think you could lay out 58 damage a second and not having the mob upset. I know I'd pay attention to that kind of damage and fast!
so when is this going to happen was an idea and is still an idea yes no?
The AoE taunt in attack powers (and Taunt changed to AoE) is in Issue #3 on the Test server. The more and more damage was deemed too much, and changed to an overall damage boost, which is also in Issue #3 on the Test server.
sigh.
There are changes currently on test. Punch-Voke has been implemented. The increasing damage over time was apparently a problem, and while Statesman made some comments regarding a different "more comic booky" solution on the damage problem, what appears to be instuted for Tankers is a higher damage cap, and a 10% increase in base damage for all secondaries.
There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst invulnerability Tankers (and Scrappers), but that seems to have settled down. Those that were most upset by the changes have had their say.
We'll see what happens when things go live. That should be in early January according to the last I heard.
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):
1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
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1. Taunt has now been turned into a slighly superior version of Provoke, and better yet it doesn't require a power pool to take it. Big win. Additionally all attacks now create a small taunt aura to further increase aggro management. Excellent.
2. As of I3, Tankers exclusively may reach a 90% resist cap. Scrappers (and all others) are limited to 75%. This mostly effects Invulnerability, but please take into consideration powers such as Increase Density, Steamy Mist, Shadow Fall, etc. which could help non-Tankers reach high resist levels. Not really an overt change for tankers, but a win as far as stronger role definition.
3. As far as I'm concerned, this hasn't really been addressed. Endurance costs are a greater issue now than ever before (my fire/mace *must* run both toggles now for mez protection, invuls and ice have similar issues). It's nice that our base damage was increased but it's not enough to have that feeling of power. Maybe if Tankers could do criticals as well, even if it were a flat 5% instead of scaling as does a Scrapper's crit chances.
Considering all the buffs that tankers received in I3 I think it's unfair to claim that the devs are uncaring, unattentive, or hostile. That's not to say that current issues and problems should be ignored, but I am saying that the benefits should be acknowledged before we rush to throw States under a bus.
Lady Deacon, 50 ill/ff
Cinder Imp, 50 fa/wm
and many more!
Hey, remember this thread?
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):
1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done.
1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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I'm here to report that tankers are feeling much better now, thanks.
The flat damage increase (rather than the time-scaling one States mentioned above) seems to be going well, as does the inherent AoE taunt built into attacks.
I haven't run the numbers, but I understand that tankers now potentially have 80% of the DPS of scrappers (while scrappers have 80% of the defense of tankers? yes/no?).
I have an Ice/Ice tanker who's basically a defense-laden tauntbot, and he does hold aggro very very well. Meatshield mission accomplished there.
I have an Inv/Ene tanker who's my damage tanker ("scranker?" "tapper?") and he does very well soloing. That objective is accomplished to my satisfaction as well.
One of our SG members is a Fir/Fir tanker and he's basically playing him like a scrapper; rightly so. He's one heck of an aggro magnet, but he can drop things as well.
Another SG member is Inv/Str, and he too is now much more appropriately destructive. He also isn't near as terrified of status effects as he used to be, now that his state protection allows him to be mobile.
Regarding PvP -- since it's becoming a reality now -- I presume that the tanker inherent-AoE-taunt thingy doesn't function against other players?
It's a pity that the Captain Americas out there still outdamage the Hulks, but eh. I suppose we'll have to always suffer the ramifications of "incorrectly" designated ATs.
Jesus Chirst on a [censored] bicycle! Talk about necromancing a thread!
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Jesus Chirst on a [censored] bicycle! Talk about necromancing a thread!
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When I first saw this post I thought holly crap what did I miss wondering what the hell was going on (my internet was down all day) only to realize itÂ’s the old post. I wonder how many Tankers are gona have heart attacks as they open the thread
quickly raises hand............. I just did..
it's just deja vu all over again.
Heh. My apologies to those faint-of-heart and/or suspicious-of-dev.
[qoute]2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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God dang I wish this made it. Couldnt get it right so they abandoned it... poop 
Yeah, but the base damage increase that was part of I3 really silenced any concerns about tanker damage being too low (particularly in light of subsequent tank/scrapper test comparisons). It was a cool idea, but nearly impossible to implement without seriously reducing our base damage to begin with, which pretty much would defeat the point.
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Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.
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Quoted from Statesman.
And then he gave it to brutes.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.
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Quoted from Statesman.
And then he gave it to brutes.
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Nice Necro research...another opportunity--Post++
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Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.
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Quoted from Statesman.
And then he gave it to brutes.
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This is too funny.
Not only that, he gave the current tanker inherent in a slightly weaker form to brutes too as a FREEBIE!!
Yup.. we can see what he was thinking... COV is where the new customers are.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.
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Quoted from Statesman.
And then he gave it to brutes.
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Nice Necro research...another opportunity--Post++
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He almost managed to ressurect the thread a year after the last post
DEAD HORSE RISING
Well if we're rising the dead horse...
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1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
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#1 seems to be ok, in PvE. PvP -may- be solved with gauntlet being added somewhat to PvP, but we'll see when it goes on test.
#2 is still off. Tankers can get to higher levels of protection, but is it really needed? A fully buffed regen scrapper can do more than a tanker can, and the tanker will need buffs to survive. The question is how much more buffing/healing will a scrapper need to match a tanker, and I believe that currently is minimal. Tankers can gather and maintain more agro, but is it really needed? Probably not.
#3 is where I have the problem. Let's give Tankers something in reverse of what Bodyguard does for MM's, they take damage off of their teammates automatically. Tankers could act as a 1 part, and the teammate could be a 2 part, so one tanker on a team means that the teammate would take 2/3s of the damage they normally would take because of the tanker. 2 tankers would make it 50%, and 3 would mean they would take 40%, etc. I think this could be beneficial to teams, and mean that even if tankers can't hold the agro, they still act as the sheild of the team.
hehe....*warm fuzzy feeling*