Same Thing different order
AoE provoke rather than cone style approach...
Ramped up damage, rather than crits (Seeing as how its a new damage progression styled solution its hard to pull that one out of the bag of "doable" options)
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if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.
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I don't know if this has been pointed out in the 23 pages of posts, but it seems invincibility is now going to get even more powerful than before. If it already has the Acc buff per mob, it seems it will be one of the few primarys that will give you the highest opp to cap the damage as well.
I won't say this is good or bad, but perhaps it should be looked into during the testing.
Awesome Statesmen, once again you dont disapoint. Thank you very much for your dilligence in making this a good world class MMO.
Love the ideas, but I doubt you guys will have this out till the 3rd update.
Still, the concept works, and will help the tankers who heard massive mobs around them and just go to work. Once again, you guys have made an honest effort to make the game better, and a lot of us appriciate it.
Thanks.
States,
The changes sound very good, just one question. Is there a possibility of getting some kind of mobile mez protection for the entire tanker AT? Or will that be adressed when the devs start looking at individual powersets? I understand that right now INV are damn near unkillable and our only weakness is stuns (and toxic!!!), and this is a very prominent issue for balance especially for PVP. But perhaps a very slow movement rate for US and rooted, something along the lines of when I am on caltrops. Or if that is not a possibility. Perhaps tankers can get a natural magnitude resistance to stuns, sorta of like boss or LT's.
It's just that when fighting malta, carnie, rikti...etc etc (and when the update goes live perhaps more)..well the battles consist of US, never being able to move. Now it sounds good about the AOE taunt effect for our attacks, but battles where if I have to move for any reason = death is just not cool. This doesn't sound like game balance to me, it's just no fun. I guess I could always click unstoppable, but....ummm....yeah (god I'd love to see unstoppable just be a mobile mez protection click for two minutes without the downside). I also know about inspirations, but those only go so far, and I simply can't carry enough for carnies. I was chained stunned by two BLUE carnies the other day. I was walking down PI and suddenly two blue carnies appeared, I jumped away, but one of them hit me with a stun and I didn't get far. They flew over and the battle went like this.
Carnie 1: Stun
Carnie 2: Spectral wounds
Carnie 1: Spectral wounds
Carnie 2: Stun
Carnie 1: Stun
Carnie 2: Spectral wounds
Just basically very uncool.....and I kid you not, they were blue cons.
Like I said I know that I'm sure that this is a balancing issue for PVP. But as far as that goes. Right now for PVP if I fought a controller I can just sit in US while he hover/kills me and uses his pets, or I can drop US and jump at him to be chain stunned to death.
Again, great changes. But I think the entire tanker AT would really like to see some mobile mez. And of course buffs to stone/ice (But that falls under individual powersets). Thanks.
*Edit: Just wanted to know what the possibility of this was, so I know whether or not it was actually a valid request.
DA ARMORS WILL STACK SOON!!!!!!!!
It has been said a hundred times, it will be stacking soon. After that if you can NOT tank that well, then its your build.
I feel like this is City Slickers and we are trying to explain the VCR Clock to you. The cows understand it already.....please go ask them for help.
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3 out of 4 Scrapper secondaries can supercede Tanker Secondaries.
Tanker Invul > Scrapper Invul/Regen/DA > Tanker Ice And Stone > Fire
That's the way it works.
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Um, no. I am DM DA scrapper and I have NO DEFENSES from DA except toward a specifc type of damage at any given time. So ANY TANKER has better defense than DA scrappers because at higher levels nearly all mobs do more than 1 type of damage. IF mobs only did psychic damage, or only did smashing damage, etc. then your statement (about DA anyway) would be closer to the truth.
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The tank would need to gather that group. The scrapper does not. My BS/Inv scrapper tears through groups of 3 and 4, bounding from spawn to spawn in IP. My tanker goes through them about half as fast. Between the time it takes to get enough mobs together to make the tactic worthwhile and the time that it takes him to ramp up (this is very theoretical, since we just don't have the numbers yet) and the time it actually takes to kill the 4 or 5 gathered groups, MAYBE it'll equalize. If it does, that's fine.
It's not like giving the tank accelerating damage means that he'll suddenly have an AoE to take out the minions he gets together. If he tries to do it with an AoE, he's going to kill them way before he reaches critical mass. If he tries to do it with single targets, then eventually he will approach scrapper damage.
I see this speeding up tanks a lot, but pretty much no chance of having tanks eclipse scrappers in their role of damage dealer. Certainly not in an XP/minute way.
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Yeah, I know, Thorn, your current FOTM build is a Tanker, and you don't like that they don't do certain things as well, so you've been calling for Scrapper nerfs so they can't even solo grey cons.
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LMAO, Thorn is a 50 Scrapper who happens to also have tank alts. But thanks for the comic relief.
I really like this idea. Great solution and it really sets the tankers apart. I'm still feelin giddy from the stuff on test. 
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks.
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This should help. It has been suggested many times in the Tanker Forums as something that should help improve aggro control.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes.
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This one sounds great on paper. But, I have a definite concern that this might just end up as mere window dressing. At high levels, you can reach the damage cap with just the use of Build up. Will this new basic tanker ability raise the damage cap to match how much it adds to the Tanker? If it doesn't, then it will end up pretty much moot as having any real effect in high 40's game play.
Statesman, I think you really need to examine tightness of your damage cap at the high levels. It really puts a damper on team dynamics as buffs are often useless due to the cap. It is this point that again concerns me about this future change to Tankers. Will it really mean a thing with the present damage cap system?
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I must echo these concerns.
Those changes sound awesome! I will actually come back to CoH if they make these changes.
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Good stuff Stateman, though, and I am speculating here of course, it looks like I'll still might need provoke, and therefore be limited in pool choices to be at maximum effectiveness.
I for one didn't/don't care how much damage I did, I just wanted to be able to lock down mobs en mass near and far w/o having to tap into a power pool to do it. I didn't roll a tank to do damage, I rolled him to take hits and keep baddies off my buddies. Don't get me wrong though, I'll take the damage boost for sure.
In a perfect world (and in my view, a reasonable and logical one) provoke would be in all tanks powersets.
No matter, I will just have to adjust my play-style (and teamates as well). I just hope I don't have to start dropping US and running all over praying I land successful hits on mobs that are making a move for my team just to hold agro while taunt is recharging.
Again, my thoughts are based on pure speculation, and reserve the right to be 100% wrong.
Signed:
Arx
Proud and happy provoke/taunt bot ( happy because I save lives )
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Interesting point. Perhaps if the provoke quality was added to tanker single target ranged attacks as well. Hurl and hurl boulder come to mind...Just a thought.
Now all they need is teen models and a tank might become my favorite character!
*Dances*
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Heh, and I just got provoke on my tanker. Oh well, it'll be useful until this goes live and then I can get rid of it, since I never really wanted it in the first place. Good changes.
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I think I'll probably still keep and use Provoke after the proposed changes since Statesman has already said that the AOE effect will not be ranged. I can use Provoke to reel them in and the AOE effect to keep them there.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
I'm thinkin he only said it won't be ranged because the majority of tanker attacks arn't ranged. My guess is powers like Hurl and Hurl Boulder are still goin to have the provoke affect. Now if we can just get hurl on the propel animation line I can finally grab the attention of a mob by heaving a forklift at him, and isn't that what this is really all about? 
My only problem is that the TANKER my not be able to deal as much DAMAGE as a SCRAPER, but as Statesman mentions, a properly slotted/configured SCRAPPER can enhance DEFENSE like a TANKER ......
.....soooo if a SCRAPPER can DEFEND as good as a TANK but deals MORE DAMAGE than a TANK .......
..... and a Scrapper can take PROVOKE like a tank and currently PROVOKE seems to be working ok for TANKS and SCRAPPERS alike..... so there is really no disticntion there.......
......why play a tank at all?!?
What Statesman proposes really does not FIX a tank then. It is just an attempt to make the tanks more like scrappers!!! - lol... no?
A tank deals less damage, defends and provokes the same as a SCRAPPER......seems to me a scrapper is a better ARCHTYPE. Basically a TANK that deals MORE DAMAGE......which seems beter to me.
OK, so they are talking about adding aggro....and then increasing damage as a battle progresses.....but who cares if you can go INTO THE BATTLE with MAX DAMAGE and ....how much AGRO is enough. I mean, if PROVOKE is working....why do you need MORE PROVOKE added to your attacks.
I don't know....seems that SCRAPPERS are favored over TANKS hands down....
...only real advantage is maybe a few more HIT POINTS.
MY 2 Cents.....
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Now if we can just get hurl on the propel animation line I can finally grab the attention of a mob by heaving a forklift at him, and isn't that what this is really all about?
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I agree with you there but what's the explanation for having hurl onthe propel animation line? The tanker pulls a car out of his butt and chucks it at the bad guy? Makes no sense to me. To have hurl worl porperly, the entire environment would have to be reworked so that it it's fully interactive.
I just got Propel for my 6th level controller and I LOVE the way it works. If only Tankers were treatefd that well
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The tanker pulls a car out of his butt and chucks it at the bad guy? Makes no sense to me. To have hurl worl porperly, the entire environment would have to be reworked so that it it's fully interactive.
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I don't understand why it makes no sense to you. Don't controllers pull a forklift outta thin air?
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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The tanker pulls a car out of his butt and chucks it at the bad guy? Makes no sense to me. To have hurl worl porperly, the entire environment would have to be reworked so that it it's fully interactive.
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they open up wormholes.... things get sucked through em.... a tanker just picking up a forklift that isn't there makes no sense. what makes sense is the dev, slow altering the static nature of the game to allow for that sort of thing. Crates, cars, trees.... that you can interact with. Windows you can smash... walls that can be bashed through. That will be no mean task.
I don't understand why it makes no sense to you. Don't controllers pull a forklift outta thin air?
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When I first read these proposed changes, I have to say that I felt positively on them, but I also had some reservations. The first thing that really disturbed me was the idea that this reinforced my belief that the game was still in Beta Testing, even though it is technically live. Since the changes are still basically proposals, the road to implementation is still some ways off. Here are some points that I would like to re-iterate:
First of all, Statesman lists 3 points that he feels needs addressing, but responds with 2 points, failing to address point 2. Here's Statesman's words on point 2.
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2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
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This point is simply left unaddressed. Apart from aesthetics (which admittedly are important), why would someone choose a Tanker rather than a Scrapper. Granted said "properly built" Scrapper may suffer some damage output loss by an optimal Tanker build, BUT it sounds like said Scrapper will retain a significant damage output advantage.
Now, when it comes to holding aggro, the Provoke AOE with melee attacks (note, he said Melee) seems to me like a tool that dumbs down tankers. Let's look at what Statesman said:
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
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The rationale here just doesn't hold up for me, I don't know about others. The rationale is better if you limit Tankers to the Huge body type, but the other problem is that it somehow assumes that the enemies think of a guy that is slowly beating them up is more dangerous than the guy that is QUICKLY beating them up, setting them on fire, etc. If anything, this sounds like more of a reason for the villains to RUN. Conceptually I have no problems with villains runninig, BUT game play wise a running villain is a way to slow down xp progression, and right now xp progression is more than slow enough for most ATs.
At lower levels, the AOE provoke sounds like a virtual Hospital Sentence, particularly when facing Cadavers/Vahz.
Of course, the tanker can simply not attack to avoid drawing aggro, but this could make the low level tanker experience a bad one. If this aggro component (much like the taunt component) remains undocumented in the power descriptions, it leaves new players completely unaware of the character's actual design and role.
As for the damage thing.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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Okay, the way they do their max damage is different, but the Scrapper remains the damage king. Fair enough, but the Tanker has to be the defensive king. The problem has been acknowledged, but it has yet to be addressed. I hope that a solution there is found.
Personally, I am o the camp that there is no problem by merging the two ATs, and having the final product/style of the characters be very similar. Scrappers get criticals, Tankers get a build up.
By that thinking, at the end game, a lot of characters will be about the same. But I'm not too concerned about that. The primary concern in my mind is having fun, and as long as that is achieved, the game will prosper.
Hopefully it will continue to deliver that.
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Apart from aesthetics (which admittedly are important), why would someone choose a Tanker rather than a Scrapper
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This is a very good question. Asthetics is one of the very few reasons to pick a tank over a scrapper right now. I personaly believe this is the REAL reason why scrappers and tanks can't combine any melee and defense sets. More on that later though. Statesman is currently trying to do what he can to make it so that isn't the only reason. As States said they still need to do the code for all of this. They are probably buisy trying to make these changes work.
You speak of dumbing down tankers. Sure it does, but I don't personly like the idea of having to pick up a power pool just to perform my main function though. There certainly are diffrent(and MAYBE better) ways to fix that, but I think this is better than nothing.
Same goes with the damage increase.. Better than nothing at all. I personly like both changes just fine. So I will keep rejoiceing!
*Performs the dance of joy*
Oh! Yes.. the real reason scrappers and tanks can't both use any melee and defense set. States claims it is to perserve AT flavor, but I say it is because there would no longer be any reason to play a tank if both sets could use any power combo. Even if it is for flavor.. the fact that there would no longer be tankers around(well hardly any) speaks volumes about what is wrong.
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You speak of dumbing down tankers. Sure it does, but I don't personly like the idea of having to pick up a power pool just to perform my main function though. There certainly are diffrent(and MAYBE better) ways to fix that, but I think this is better than nothing.
Same goes with the damage increase.. Better than nothing at all. I personly like both changes just fine. So I will keep rejoiceing!
*Performs the dance of joy*
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Well, finding cause to rejoice is a good thing, and at the very least it keeps you from appearing to crumudgeonly. Yes, things are getting a little better for Tankers, and will get better over time (assuming everything else stays the same), but for me it is time for the dance of confusion. Picking up a power pool was just plain bogus, and this alleviates that to some degree, at least with this, you can hold the aggro of a group you are in the midst of ASSUMING YOU WANT IT. If you DON'T want all the aggro, your only choice is to NOT ATTACK, putting you back in the punching bag role. My Tanker has Taunt for two reasons. It allows for more accurate aggro control, and it isn't a power pool. The downside is that I am less likely to party with an AOE Blaster, who needs a provoke bot a lot more. Others are willing to adjust accordingly in my experience. Putting Provoke into the Tanker powerset would have been a better solution than this IMHO, but we'll see how it works out. From the way it sounds, it's not even at the coding stage, much less the testing stage, so it can cange a lot between now and then.
And yes, the Damage Increase is welcome, but the Tanker/Scrapper build discrepancy remains.
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Oh! Yes.. the real reason scrappers and tanks can't both use any melee and defense set. States claims it is to perserve AT flavor, but I say it is because there would no longer be any reason to play a tank if both sets could use any power combo. Even if it is for flavor.. the fact that there would no longer be tankers around(well hardly any) speaks volumes about what is wrong.
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Agreed, but worse, the documentation in game and online still doesn't admit this. I expect that new subscribership is tapering off, so it's not a big deal, but if you come to this game new, and you expect that the Scrapper will feel overshadowed by your Tanker, well the joke is on you Tanker.
I just continue to feel that the Tanker AT, and more and more I feel that the entire GAME, is still in Beta Testing, and we are really paying to Beta Test.
As long as it's fun, that's fine, but bugs and imbalances = less fun. Implementing these proposals are likely to lead to more bugs and imbalances. We'll see how it goes.
Excellent ideas. I would bring my tanker out of retirement with these changes.
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The tanker pulls a car out of his butt and chucks it at the bad guy?
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lol well i guess you could belive that the forklift just happened to be buried at that exact spot... maybe all stone and SS tanks have built in metal detectors
Good stuff Stateman, though, and I am speculating here of course, it looks like I'll still might need provoke, and therefore be limited in pool choices to be at maximum effectiveness.
I for one didn't/don't care how much damage I did, I just wanted to be able to lock down mobs en mass near and far w/o having to tap into a power pool to do it. I didn't roll a tank to do damage, I rolled him to take hits and keep baddies off my buddies. Don't get me wrong though, I'll take the damage boost for sure.
In a perfect world (and in my view, a reasonable and logical one) provoke would be in all tanks powersets.
No matter, I will just have to adjust my play-style (and teamates as well). I just hope I don't have to start dropping US and running all over praying I land successful hits on mobs that are making a move for my team just to hold agro while taunt is recharging.
Again, my thoughts are based on pure speculation, and reserve the right to be 100% wrong.
Signed:
Arx
Proud and happy provoke/taunt bot ( happy because I save lives )