<pages the Confessor> 
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3 out of 4 Scrapper secondaries can supercede Tanker Secondaries.
Tanker Invul > Scrapper Invul/Regen/DA > Tanker Ice And Stone > Fire
That's the way it works.
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Um, no. I am DM DA scrapper and I have NO DEFENSES from DA except toward a specifc type of damage at any given time. So ANY TANKER has better defense than DA scrappers because at higher levels nearly all mobs do more than 1 type of damage. IF mobs only did psychic damage, or only did smashing damage, etc. then your statement (about DA anyway) would be closer to the truth.
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Ice and Stone operate the same way ... they have the same issue as DA. Only difference is DA is better 
... they get actually RES that is awsome and can cap out Smashing/Lethal RES without getting the drawbacks that Stone has to do in order to get it.
Um.. Sir... I dont think that this update matters if the only tanker that can handle the aggro is a invulnerable/super strength one..I dont think u have equiped the others for it at all...Whats up with that anyways?
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Uhh no. Show me a Tanker without Burn who is better than a non-gimped Scrapper. I've played both AT's more than you have and I can say that this is utter crap.
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The only crap here is the crap you incessantly spew on the subject.
Fire Secondary does more damage than a Spines Scrapper, both in AoE damage, and in single target damage. That isn't opinion, that is fact. Go ahead and compare the damage. Oh, and just don't forget that nearly everything resists lethal damage whereas nearly nothing resists fire damage. But even if that WEREN'T the case, Fire Secondary does more than Spines.
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No ... no it won't. I don't care what changes they do my Regen Scrapper will always be more desirable in a group then my Tank. There is no way around this. It's an unfortunate truth.
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No way around it? You can herd so well because foes don't do that much damage. When 5 foes can alpha strike you for the "one shot kill", how good are you going to be to a group then?
Yeah, I know, Thorn, your current FOTM build is a Tanker, and you don't like that they don't do certain things as well, so you've been calling for Scrapper nerfs so they can't even solo grey cons. Its easier to believe that than to actually recognize the root of the problem. Foes in the late game are not dangerous enough to make the difference in the defenses between a Tanker and a Scrapper matter. They (the devs) are, thankfully upping the difficulty late game, and hopefully that difference will matter again. Nerfing Scrappers into uselessness or buffing Tankers into uber Scrappers may be your solution, but I'd rather have balance in the game than a monthly "adjustment" to satisfy your current FOTM needs.
Can I say I REALLY like the "Building up to more damage idea"? It seems fair, because we still get the penalty of being slower to do big damag because of our defenses, but we still have the ability to get there.
It looks like the Tanker is going to be the man you want for tough fights, and that's a good thing to be.
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Maybe I should have put it a bit more clear. Statistics can be used to prove anything you want, even that Tankers does more damage then Scrappers. It just depends on how you collect your data.
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Data collection, experimental design, and analysis are all issues of statistics. You can use *bad* statistics to prove anything you want. *Good* statistics doesn't work that way. There are accepted ways of analysis and design.
Ferrium - Inv/SS Tanker
Hyperforce - SS/Regen Brute
Member of V for Vengance (Exalted)
Thanks, States. This sounds very promising.
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Yeah, I know, Thorn, your current FOTM build is a Tanker, and you don't like that they don't do certain things as well, so you've been calling for Scrapper nerfs so they can't even solo grey cons. Its easier to believe that than to actually recognize the root of the problem. Foes in the late game are not dangerous enough to make the difference in the defenses between a Tanker and a Scrapper matter. They (the devs) are, thankfully upping the difficulty late game, and hopefully that difference will matter again. Nerfing Scrappers into uselessness or buffing Tankers into uber Scrappers may be your solution, but I'd rather have balance in the game than a monthly "adjustment" to satisfy your current FOTM needs.
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Hahaha. I know Thorn is an opinionated jerk sometimes, but calling Tanks his "FOTM" is hilarious! So far off...
I think your changes sound great. As a 25 Invul/energy tanker I'm happy to see it.
But wouldn't restoring provoke the way it was and getting rid of the resstance cap do about the same thing? Then scrappers couldn't have the same resistance because tanker resistances would be better. Or at least raise the cap to 95% instead of 90%.
Just a suggestion.
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Maybe I should have put it a bit more clear. Statistics can be used to prove anything you want, even that Tankers does more damage then Scrappers. It just depends on how you collect your data.
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Data collection, experimental design, and analysis are all issues of statistics. You can use *bad* statistics to prove anything you want. *Good* statistics doesn't work that way. There are accepted ways of analysis and design.
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The problem here is that we have no *good* statistics to use here. This would require a decently large same, some 100 or so diffrent Tankers and Scrappers filling the same role in a team. Not even the Devs have access to that.
Funny on how no other scrappers on the scrapper board agree with you. Especially he ones that are level 50. This is not a debate on scrappers damage, and the Devs did not ask for your scrapper view point. Now if you play a tank as well, which is obvious you don't, you are no where near facts.
The devs SAID, we don't come close. And you dare think you no more then them??? WOW
As you keep saying hard number, hard numbers. Thornkiller has those tables with HARD numbers, please go read them.
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Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do.
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Golly, nearly fell off my chair laughing at that. You DO know that generally, all secondaries are capped at 75% effectiveness of the same primary, right? And that tankers generally slot primary damage-mitigating powers, while scrappers tend to slot primary damage-dealing powers?
Man, I've met biased people trying to defend their over-powered class (relative to another) by pulling fictitious statements and facts out of their a**, but you, sir, take the cake.
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I am also aware that Scrapper primaries and Tanker secondaries does not share even a single set. The ones Tanker got is slow and harder hitting relative to Scrappers. This is why the actual single target damage per hit is nearly the same. I think you should do some comparison before you draw hasty conclusions. Maybe take a look at the most damaging melee attack in the game, Energy Transfer.
As for slotting, at higher levels Scrappers will most of the time have more slots in defence as they need more to get less.
Maybe you should consider thinking more and being rude less?
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The only crap here is the crap you incessantly spew on the subject.
Fire Secondary does more damage than a Spines Scrapper, both in AoE damage, and in single target damage. That isn't opinion, that is fact. Go ahead and compare the damage. Oh, and just don't forget that nearly everything resists lethal damage whereas nearly nothing resists fire damage. But even if that WEREN'T the case, Fire Secondary does more than Spines.
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Oh really hmmm ...
You really think that an Invul/Fire Tank can hold the same amount of sustained DPS as my Spines scrapper?
lol ... you are smoking some seriously good crack there buddy.
Fact: Fire has longer recharge times and endurance cost then Spines/Claws.
Fact: Spines has a larger reach with Throw Spines than anything in the Fire Secondary.
Fact: No Invul/Fire tank out there can keep up with my DPS.
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No way around it? You can herd so well because foes don't do that much damage. When 5 foes can alpha strike you for the "one shot kill", how good are you going to be to a group then?
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They have to hit me to kill me. I have fought foes who can kill me in 2 to 3 shots and still mass herd them. When I was leveling up to 50 I was pulling 150+ level 50 mobs with 2 Demon Overlords in each spawn (about 15 baddy spawns). That's about 10 per mass herd. They do enough damage to nearly knock my life to half with Dull Pain up. With 10 of them in spawns I ended up taking 2 Alpha Strike deaths in 2 runs through the milk mission ... but within 1 mission the death debt was gone and over with. I took the debt and grinned. With 15 minutes of work I got that much XP. Invul/Fire can't keep up with that. Endurance baby ... endurance 
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Yeah, I know, Thorn, your current FOTM build is a Tanker, and you don't like that they don't do certain things as well, so you've been calling for Scrapper nerfs
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Oh please can you show me the Scrapper nerf where I wasn't being sarcastic. Please pull me a specific nerf I cried for. Hmmm... can't do it can you. This is what is called a bullsh*t flag. You are full of sh*t and can't back up your statement.
Here I can do it: You have been calling for Controller Nerfs forever and think Controllers are overpowered and step on Scrapper toes you know you have. ... wow lying about what people say is soooooo cool.
Further my build isn't FOTM I built it in pre-release so unless you can show me who knew Spines/Regen was going to be this good back then I guess you get a 2nd bullsh*t flag thrown on you ...
Wow how does it feel to be so full of sh*t ... do you smell bad too?
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That change will not do much good in a group setting at higher levels. The combats don't last all that long.
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That will also be changing soon.
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Hrm, that could end up being effectively a nerf to everyone *but* tankers, since a longer battle will have everyone else expending more resources, while it just increases a tankers damage.
Statesman,
I think you and the other developers have done a terrific job of addressing the main concerns of the tanker community. The changes you are planning sound fantastic and I can't wait to try them out on the test server.
Even with the changes from the 2nd patch, my tanker is playing better. Your game remains a great deal of fun to play. Keep up the great work!
Wow! Thanks for responding so quickly on the Tanker problems, Statesman!
Magma Man (lvl 11 Fire/Fire Liberty) might have to come out more often.
Liberty:
Dr. Mentiac Grav/Emp 50
Kid Atom Eng/Dev 34
Magma Man Fire/Fire Tank 21
Ava1anche Ice/Storm 21
Toad Man Spines/Regen 31
Clone Agent R1A Rad/Rad 20
Clone Agent R1B Rad/Rad 20
Human F1ame Fire/Eng 17
Combustion Kid Fire/Eng 10
Mad Doctor X Robots/FF 22
TechnoSapien Robots/FF 22
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statesman logic for the REASON to improve Tankers fails. The longer someone fights the more damage they do? That's very anti-comic book (and I've been a collector for over 30 years).
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Wow, never read the Hulk much didja?
Seem to remember at least one story arc where the jolly green giant got BIGGER the longer he was on his rampage.
Since you referenced DC, I don't think I need to bring up the Stone Tanker that was the Death of Superman (the story arc, not the AV that took out Supes).
Even Wonderman (ie "He of the bad costumes") had a significant story arc of him needing to be angry to be able to dish & that anger built over the course of an action packed battle.
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How would I have fixed it? Tanker is down to his last boss whom he just can't coup de grace. Let him toggle a final (pre-death) power than does massive damage but leaves him disoreinted and drains all endurance for X amount of time. That's classic comic book. If he toggles too early in the fight, he's dead. But then the 5 minute (seems like an hour) battle with bosses is eliminated. That's the comic book feel (of course in the comic books the hero usually toggles at the right time, exceptions of Supergirl and Karate Kid come to mind)
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You don't play tankers much do yah?
So ummm 1 attack, where we can do significant damage before we're toast, right?
And it can't be big enough for an entire health bar- one shotting anything big (heaven forbid we actually neared a Scrapper Single Target 800% base crit damage), right?
So how again are we supposed to whittle down said boss & his friends to an acceptable level before firing off this end-draining, disorienting, megablow; without losing our toggles in the first place (we're usually in pretty bad shape end wise by our second or third minion)?
How many bosses come in one packs?
If the entirity of our offense is only good against one guy, how are we supposed to find a single guy to use it against?
Do we just start soloing ArchVillains?
Believe it or not you're trying to give us your Boss-killer role.
We appreciate it, and we asked for it, but it's not the direction they're going and the devs have said as much.
Not only that, but you've requested it in such a situational way that it's almost insulting. One slight miscalculation in villain health and it's debt city. Figuring out how to use it alone would probably put you near the debt cap.
The idea that tankers (who in comic books were famous for leveling entire towns- Juggernaut, Rhino) would fall over poooped after a couple swings (ie our current situation) is more un-hero like than Statesman's proposed changes.
Your idea that we'd wait till lev 38 for the "opportunity" of ONE attack to make us fall over poooped; but not be able to alpha strike with it, is absolutely ridiculous.
yay! these changes make me even happier with my tank!!
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Do things like Burn count as landing more and more blows?
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I'm pretty sure the effect would be on the Tanker secondary powers, and burn is a primary power. It would kinda negate the fear effect of burn otherwise.
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I want to see it such that burn fields don't increase the dmg the tanker does, but that they do provoke. I think any dmg from the tanker should make mobs mad.. period. but the dmg increase from rage should occur only based on the dmg dealt through the secondary powerset.
Isn't it odd when a thread of good news for Tanks becomes corrupt due to missunderstandings of facts?
Tanks needed a fix. They needed to feel valuable later in the game.
Some people forgot that the tweak to villian difficulty is coming. Others forgot the large encounters. Events, Hammidon...other new Epic Mobs that we don't know about.
There are layers upon layers we don't know, but faith in the choice from people that do and have the game's best interest at heart might be a good start.
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Let's return to reality here, and quit with the pathetic exaggerations.
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Pathetic exaggerations? It's called figure of speech!
Bleh, I am done with you, EOD on this side. Troll away 
Fleo_DP
I think it's just a few trolls from the Scrapper boards.
I trust that the devs are doing everything they can to provide the most entertaining product possible.
According to UnholyS ... Scrappers are all gimped compared to tanks and tanks are uber gods and powerhouses
Don't stress him ... paper tiger that never backs his words up with more than pissing and moaning. All talk no action.
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According to UnholyS ... Scrappers are all gimped compared to tanks and tanks are uber gods and powerhouses
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Sincerely I didn't read this way. IMHO he thinks everyone reads the forum and understand what it has to be done to make a good toon.
But things are a little different in the wild. There are people who choose Ice/SS because it was an interesting concept, or it reminds them of their favorite comic book character.
As soon as my friend hits 50 I'll have the hard data but from initial SK testing he was killing an equal level warhulk 2 secs slower then me and was a level lower then me so I don't believe the damage difference will be that great but we'll see soon.
Here's a question though, using buffs and stuff how high can your damage go as a tank? Statesman said you'll be able to cap your damage in a big fight, I'm betting tanks will pull a few packs together quick or jump in a big pack do 1 AOE and cap their dam making them cap dam and far exceed what a scrapper can do without buffs. If this happens like i'm pretty sure it will since Statesman said they can cap their dam then tanks will do more damage, have more life, and reach same reses with less slots then a scrapper can. I agree that tanks need a little work but I think this is over the top and will make scrappers obsolete like tanks are whining they are atm.
As a last note I've not noticed tanks being obsolete, they do a lot I can't do already because of that higher life.
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Nope just wanted to correct you. Don't care about your arguement.
Number of AoE's are unimportant to me. Quality of AoE's are important to me.
For example I don't see why you even bothered listing 'Utility AoEs'
They do not improve kill rate and they don't help offense. They can 'help' defense but you and I both know Offense is King in this game. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
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I listed them to show wich ones I didnt include as damage, not for any other reason. Just so that none would think I excluded some power that was actualy usefull for damage. Consider that the post I replied to did include those for some reason.